Poll for the Armchair Psychologists

[SMK]

Yes, I agree, a bit too simplified though. It's very either or, and does not suit everyone's beliefs. We are still very much in nature/nurture territory and much greater minds than ours are still debating it.
For me however, I have seen too much of the intergenerational cyclical violence and abuse of children that gives that gives us these adults, not to be swayed by 'scientific/medical model'. Things are just not that black and white, and never will be. Positivism is inherently gender and power biased. That's not my personal opinion, it's well known, and is a part of self-reflexive thinking.
If we move from that position when discussing the 'psychopathology' of JA, it is biased from the beginning. Because 'power' and 'control' will be elemental to your thinking. Under those circumstances, it makes it much easier to determine where such understandings might lead.

I agree. It would be far easier if things were black and white, and if power and gender and bias were not forces within the social order and within the scientific model itself.

 

[Gecko100]

I agree. It would be far easier if things were black and white, and if power and gender and bias were not forces within the social order and within the scientific model itself.

Also, if you practice from that position without some balancing framework, the outcome will be very clear.

 

[Horace Finklestein]

Yes we do, but we also have a duty as a society to look at what causes alcoholism. People who have no issues with alcohol get caught drinking.
Borderline Personality Disorder is linked with child abuse, who caused it, the child?

Addiction and mental illness are largely genetic. I don't think the science can be ignored on that point.

 

[lil_buddy]

What I am stressing is that disordered people - and I would count myself in with them, in my past - are not free in the sense that non-disordered people are.

"Being of sound mind and body" to me precludes NPD and BPD in many instances.

I think in some cases violence does indeed come from mental illness. In fact, in my family there is a member who becomes dangerous when she is manic.... I have never been violent but I had been irresponsible to a marked degree in the past, when I was on a wrong medication.....I agree it sucks, the idea that humans are not always free and reasonable persons....

Yes, this makes a lot of sense.

 

[SMK]

Addiction and mental illness are largely genetic. I don't think the science can be ignored on that point.

The science need not be ignored: It can be differently interpreted.

I saw a therapist (PhD Clinician and researcher; presided over NJ chapter of APA) who said that while he agreed that there was indeed a genetic component to mental illness and compulsive behaviors, he felt that ignoring familial dynamics and life experiences - which could trigger an illness/addiction which under better circumstances might never have manifested - was folly and wholly un-empirical.

 

[SMK]

Yes, this make a lot of sense.

Well, I hope you are not implying that my perspective and purview come from being disordered: (as I have a history with you in posting and arguing): I was speaking of the past, and past problems with wrong medication combinations. Ask any bipolar person if they have had free volition when on a very seriously wrong medication. But what I am setting forth here and now certainly stems from NO disordered thinking.:furious:

 

[Linda7NJ]

Back to Jodi....please


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[SMK]

Back to Jodi....please


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What about her?

 

[Frigga]

I have an analogy, that I feel may be helpful- take it for what it's worth to you. Our son has Down syndrome- a completely genetic disorder- I am certain we can all agree on that.

We did not know until after he was born, in fact at that time (14 years ago) his blood was sent away to Texas for chromosomal testing, that took 2 weeks for the results to come back. In that 2 week time period we had time to grieve and come to terms, but even more important it gave us time to research, research, and research some more.

Within two weeks of his diagnosis being confirmed he started early intervention in Laguna Beach- he was 1 month old! He continued with services through infancy (with a brief stay due to open heart surgery at 7 months), and toddlerhood with occupational therapists, physical therapists, and speech and language therapists. He went to public school beginning at the age of 3! He rode the bus in a car seat. We were not wealthy- my husband and I were actually college students but we found and fought for services, had 2 other little girls who would love and stimulate him, and eventually surpass him.

He is now graduating from middle school- preparing to go to high school. He is in a mild to moderate class (special ed). There are approximately 8 other children at his middle school who have Down syndrome- not one of them is in the M/M class- they are ALL in the severe classroom. Only one of them speaks, and not much at that.

My son is very high functioning, and while he is about 4-6 years delayed in some instances in many, many others he is on task and typical with his peers.

I know a few of the other children's stories, not all of them but the ones I do know did NOT have, find or utilize the services we managed to.

What is the reason... if they were all born with the same genetic condition? Only one of the children has translocation trisomy 21 which would actually account for the huge difference in cognitive functioning- but the others? Was it just the way they would have come into the world had they been typical- functioning at different IQ levels on the spectrum or was it what we did for our son that made the difference.

I have an idea... especially in terms of the stories I know- It is what we did for him that made the difference. Why not the same with other genetic conditions of mental illness, PD, or sociopathy and parenting?

As I said, an analogy... take it for what you want~ Frigga

 

[SMK]

I have an analogy, that I feel may be helpful- take it for what it's worth to you. Our son has Down syndrome- a completely genetic disorder- I am certain we can all agree on that.

We did not know until after he was born, in fact at that time (14 years ago) his blood was sent away to Texas for chromosomal testing, that took 2 weeks for the results to come back. In that 2 week time period we had time to grieve and come to terms, but even more important it gave us time to research, research, and research some more.

Within Two weeks of his diagnosis being confirmed he started early intervention in Laguna Beach- he was 1 month old! He continued with services through infancy (with a brief stay due to open heart surgery at 7 months), and toddlerhood with occupational therapists, physical therapists, and speech and language therapists. He went to public school beginning at the age of 3! He rode the bus in a car seat. We were not wealthy- my husband and I were actually college students but we found and fought for services, had 2 other little girls who would love and stimulate him, and eventually surpass him.

He is now graduating from middle school- preparing to go to high school. He is on a mild to moderate class (special ed). There are approximately 8 other children at his middle school who have Down syndrome- not one of them is in M/M class- they are ALL in the severe classroom. Only one of them speaks, and not much at that.

My son is very high functioning, and while he is about 4-6 years delayed in some instances in many, many others he is on task and typical with his peers.

I know a few of the other children's stories, not all of them but the ones I do know did NOT have, find or utilize the services we managed to.

What is the reason... if they were all born with the same genetic condition? Only one of the children has translocation trisomy 21 which would actually account for the huge difference in cognitive functioning- but the others? Was is just the way they would have come into the world had they been typical- functioning at different IQ levels on the spectrum or was it what we did for our son that made the difference.

I have an idea... especially in terms of the stories I know- It is what we did for him that made the difference. Why not the same with other genetic conditions of mental illness, PD, or sociopathy?

As I said, an analogy... take it for what you want~ Frigga

I think it is a good analogy and a good story, and I thank you for sharing it. You and your family have done the right thing by your son: Researching, getting proper help and therapy, and taking a positive, loving, and responsible attitude.

But where would your son be had you NOT researched, been very sullen and angry and maybe scapegoated the child, believing his genetic disorder to be some kind of unwarranted punishment sent to you, and making you glare and snarl at him daily? NURTURE can radically alter the outcome of even NATURE. Your story illustrates this aptly.

 

[Emmi]

I think Emmi is saying over and over again that if PD is genetic and nothing can be done about it, then why are people willing to fry someone who cannot help what they are?

Just as someone cannot help if they have blue eyes.

I do not think Emmi believes a person is not responsible. She is pointing out the flaw in the thought process of genetics being destiny. Set in stone. Doomed. Born that way.

But, of course, that is MY interpretation of what she is saying.

Yes. Thanks, human.

 

[Gecko100]

I think it is a good analogy and a good story, and I thank you for sharing it. You and your family have done the right thing by your son: Researching, getting proper help and therapy, and taking a positive, loving, and responsible attitude.

But where would your son be had you NOT researched, been very sullen and angry and maybe scapegoated the child, believing his genetic disorder to be some kind of unwarranted punishment sent to you, and making you glare and snarl at him daily? NURTURE can radically alter the outcome of even NATURE. Your story illustrates this aptly.

Children have absolutely no choice about who parents them, it's the luck of the draw. Some children get lucky.

 

[OEJ]

What if it was neglecting rejecting and encouraging of an 'adult' behaviour from a child?

It's the boundary invading that causes it, I believe. The worse the invading the stronger the NPD construct.

 

[Tulessa]

Back to Jodi....please


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Jodi who? :floorlaugh: Heck! This thread is fascinating! Thanks for all the debating. I am enjoying it!

 

[SMK]

I think Emmi is saying over and over again that if PD is genetic and nothing can be done about it, then why are people willing to fry someone who cannot help what they are?

Just as someone cannot help if they have blue eyes.

I do not think Emmi believes a person is not responsible. She is pointing out the flaw in the thought process of genetics being destiny. Set in stone. Doomed. Born that way.

But, of course, that is MY interpretation of what she is saying.

Yes, and it a soft determinism/compatabilism is the only empirical conclusion to be drawn about the Arias or any other case: NOT the hard determinism of brain science, NOR the soft free will of idealism: The facts lead us to the fusion of creating ourselves/being created by forces outside of us. No man is an island, was the old wisdom about this.

 

[Emmi]

I have an idea... especially in terms of the stories I know- It is what we did for him that made the difference. Why not the same with other genetic conditions of mental illness, PD, or sociopathy and parenting?

As I said, an analogy... take it for what you want~ Frigga

Great analogy, Frigga! Thank you for sharing.

I'm happy for your son and family's successes! He's so fortunate to have a wonderful mother like you.

 

[Emmi]

The science need not be ignored: It can be differently interpreted.

I saw a therapist (PhD Clinician and researcher; presided over NJ chapter of APA) who said that while he agreed that there was indeed a genetic component to mental illness and compulsive behaviors, he felt that ignoring familial dynamics and life experiences - which could trigger an illness/addiction which under better circumstances might never have manifested - was folly and wholly un-empirical.

Folly, indeed. This can be understood and grasped intuitively, but it doesn't hurt to hear it from the mouth of a PhD!

 

[Frigga]

I'm sorry I am laughing my head off right now, because I always try to think in terms of the big picture, which is what I feel so many of you are getting at here...and then all of a sudden I could hear ALV saying "... context Mr. Martinez... you have to look at the entire context"!

I wonder what she thinks about Jodi now, honestly. I wonder if ALV having much more 'context' has changed her perception in any way. (that is of course if she has chosen to look at what is out there)

 

[OEJ]

I have an analogy, that I feel may be helpful- take it for what it's worth to you. Our son has Down syndrome- a completely genetic disorder- I am certain we can all agree on that.

We did not know until after he was born, in fact at that time (14 years ago) his blood was sent away to Texas for chromosomal testing, that took 2 weeks for the results to come back. In that 2 week time period we had time to grieve and come to terms, but even more important it gave us time to research, research, and research some more.

Within two weeks of his diagnosis being confirmed he started early intervention in Laguna Beach- he was 1 month old! He continued with services through infancy (with a brief stay due to open heart surgery at 7 months), and toddlerhood with occupational therapists, physical therapists, and speech and language therapists. He went to public school beginning at the age of 3! He rode the bus in a car seat. We were not wealthy- my husband and I were actually college students but we found and fought for services, had 2 other little girls who would love and stimulate him, and eventually surpass him.

He is now graduating from middle school- preparing to go to high school. He is in a mild to moderate class (special ed). There are approximately 8 other children at his middle school who have Down syndrome- not one of them is in the M/M class- they are ALL in the severe classroom. Only one of them speaks, and not much at that.

My son is very high functioning, and while he is about 4-6 years delayed in some instances in many, many others he is on task and typical with his peers.

I know a few of the other children's stories, not all of them but the ones I do know did NOT have, find or utilize the services we managed to.

What is the reason... if they were all born with the same genetic condition? Only one of the children has translocation trisomy 21 which would actually account for the huge difference in cognitive functioning- but the others? Was it just the way they would have come into the world had they been typical- functioning at different IQ levels on the spectrum or was it what we did for our son that made the difference.

I have an idea... especially in terms of the stories I know- It is what we did for him that made the difference. Why not the same with other genetic conditions of mental illness, PD, or sociopathy and parenting?

As I said, an analogy... take it for what you want~ Frigga

Awesome job you did with your son! I think your example is a good one in comparison with the genetic components of mental illness. I think more research needs to be done. I don't know for sure, but I got the impression Jodi's parents try to handle her in the home and did not vigorously pursue services for her.

 

[Gecko100]

Yes, and it a soft determinism/compatabilism is the only empirical conclusion to be drawn about the Arias or any other case: NOT the hard determinism of brain science, NOR the soft free will of idealism: The facts lead us to the fusion of creating ourselves/being created by forces outside of us. No man is an island, was the old wisdom about this.

Then biological determinism can only ever be cause/effect, one dimensional
either/or understanding. If the societal forces forces feel the same way, it will always lead to one sided analysis and misrepresentation.