Possible NEW Suspects In JonBenet Ramsey Case?

[Roy23]

Much further up the thread, you had indicated a reluctance to answer hypothetical questions. But I think your theory is incomplete unless you can come up with some plausible explanations of why BDM/WB would do the following -

A) Leave the body in the house where it's likely to be found, thus making it impossible to collect the ransom.

B) If it's a "kidnapping gone bad" what went wrong to foil the original abduction plan?

I realize you can't say definitively what happened that night. I'm just asking you to support your theory with some plausible explanation of why Mitchel would do these things.

i am not saying BDM did this but i can offer a suggestion on these questions.

He had to use some force to quiet her. He ended up hurting much more than he bargained for. Thus the ultimate death blow. Just a thought. A dead child probably was no help to Mitchell

 

[mtwentz]

i am not saying BDM did this but i can offer a suggestion on these questions.

He had to use some force to quiet her. He ended up hurting much more than he bargained for. Thus the ultimate death blow. Just a thought. A dead child probably was no help to Mitchell

Just to play devil's advocate for the other side, the problem with the kidnapping gone wrong theory is the whole noose/garrote to finish the job. If it truly were a kidnapping gone wrong and a blow to the head had not quite killed JB, why bother to construct a noose? Why not just strangle or smother her? At that point, the perp should be trying to get out of the house as quickly as possible.

 

[Chrishope]

i am not saying BDM did this but i can offer a suggestion on these questions.

He had to use some force to quiet her. He ended up hurting much more than he bargained for. Thus the ultimate death blow. Just a thought. A dead child probably was no help to Mitchell

That's a reasonable attempt to explain it.

Now, I'm not trying to be argumentative for it's own sake, but theories have to fit the pieces together. Not perfectly, but somewhat.


Are you saying the death blow was the original attempt to quiet her? Or are you saying he attempted to quiet her in other ways, then as a last resort, the crushing head blow?

Does the skull bashing come before the garrote? If so, why the garrote? -some separate element to satisfy his perversions? If it comes after the garrote then where is the need? -she could not have made much noise while being strangled.

It's obvious why Mitchel would wipe her down - to hide evidence of his being there. It's not obvious why he'd redress JBR at all, nor why he'd redress her in size 12 panties.

Roy23, I'm not asking you to answer all these questions. I'm just trying to point out that they are reasonable questions to ask about a Mitchell/Barzee intruder theory.

AKWILKS doesn't want to get into IDI vs RDI, but I believe it's unavoidable.

 

[Roy23]

That's a reasonable attempt to explain it.

Now, I'm not trying to be argumentative for it's own sake, but theories have to fit the pieces together. Not perfectly, but somewhat.


Are you saying the death blow was the original attempt to quiet her? Or are you saying he attempted to quiet her in other ways, then as a last resort, the crushing head blow?

Does the skull bashing come before the garrote? If so, why the garrote? -some separate element to satisfy his perversions? If it comes after the garrote then where is the need? -she could not have made much noise while being strangled.

It's obvious why Mitchel would wipe her down - to hide evidence of his being there. It's not obvious why he'd redress JBR at all, nor why he'd redress her in size 12 panties.

Roy23, I'm not asking you to answer all these questions. I'm just trying to point out that they are reasonable questions to ask about a Mitchell/Barzee intruder theory.

AKWILKS doesn't want to get into IDI vs RDI, but I believe it's unavoidable.

I understand and know exactly what both of you are saying. And I dont know the answers. For me, I just think test the dang DNA and then go from there. It is better than just doing nothing. I cant see BDM redressing JBR, just cant.

 

[vlpate]

The last known objective third party to hear them state where they were going to in 1995 (Mrs. McKnight) testifies they said "Colorado".

http://breaking.sltrib.com/mitchell/nov18bmcknighttranscript.php

"McKnight: As they left they had a yard sale and they just got rid of all their things. They had a truck that they took downtown to sell at a store there and they left it there with a for-sale sign. That left the fifth wheel at our house. And then after that yard sale, they just put backpacks on their backs and walked down the road and went on down the road. I just see two people with backpacks and I felt very sad that they were walking. We offered them a ride because its quite a ways to the town but they said, “No. We’re just going to go on our own.”

Judge: You may call your next witness."


Betty McNight did NOT "testify" that BDM nor WB said "Colorado". Basing a theory on non-existent evidence and some beyond long shot hope the DNA will match. Blogs are thrown up all over the Internet espousing the same inconsistent and trumped up "facts" in an effort to generate enough interest to do what? Write a book? Do a crockumentary like Aphrodite Jones? Hey, it worked for her. Why should I care? I care because the person who killed JonBenet is LOVING every shovelful of manure that is thrown on the basic and incontrovertible facts of the case. There's an angel in heaven whose life meant nothing to anyone besides a handful of her Internet family who stuck with the case for many years - myself, ten - in an effort to smoke out the truth and make the liars accountable, all for naught. She will never mean anything, because there are people on earth with nothing better to do 14 years later than to chase their 15 mintues of fame in her name. A true crime writer and detective would know there is plenty of real evidence in this case that should be re-visited and just maybe someone with an abundance of time on their hands, might just solve the case. That person would have to care about JonBenet though, not just their claim to fame.

The Ramsey's were "cleared" as suspects by Alex Hunter only one week before he announced he would retire. Why did the spineless wonder get the hell out of Dodge after making this unfounded announcement? Quid pro quo? I think so.

Just because there might be DNA not belonging to the family Ramsey, found years later, does not mean the Ramseys are innocent. There's no doubt, and they do not deny being in the house when she was killed, all evidence is connected to only them, so how could they possibly be cleared?

You wrote on one of your blogs, as a fact to fit your BDM theory, that there was animal hair found on JonBenet - and that BDM wore something with beaver hair! The "hair" was from a bristle on Patsy Ramsey's animal hair (expensive), paint brushes, sable I believe. A fact connected to the evidence - a fact that can't be changed to fit a theory? In my opinion, one should know the facts of the case before contriving a theory. Can't have one piece of evidence with two diffferent FACTS. The palm print also mentioned in your theory as unknown belonged to Melinda Ramsey. The "pubic" hair cited as unknown origin was an ancillary (arm,probably), hair - and was said to belong to Patsy Ramsey. IMO, this theory simply boils down to throwing BDM's DNA at an unsolved case and hoping it will stick.

I haven't thought about this case in years because I gave up fighting all the entities trying to capitalize on JonBenet's untimely demise. John Mark Karr, Mystery Woman, Aphrodite Jones, and others - all people wanting to either gain fame or money on the horrific death of an innocent 6 year old baby who was used in life by her mother the same exact way - parading her out and making her, like their theories and claims, into someone/something, she was not. I guess there will always be individuals muddying the facts and burying the truth to their own self-serving end - but if they had one ounce of humanity within them, they would stop for a moment and think about how little their absurd fabrications are doing to help to find justice for JonBenet Ramsey. In fact, their absurd fabrications (which started the minute JonBenet was killed), and muddying of the waters have likely rendered this case unsolvable.

I pray one day someone truly interested in finding justice for JonBenet Ramsey will go back to 1996 and look at the evidence and facts of this case, and then moving forward, the guilty behavior of Patsy and John Ramsey - and before it's too late, make someone accountable, even from the grave, if that's where the truth lies.

You want everyone to stick to discussing your theory - but you need to lay out the facts, and source them. No more altered handwriting, no more making up what someone testified to or verbiage coincidences. Facts that link BDM to Colorado on December 25th or December 26th, 1996. I will absolutely respect facts. If a possible DNA match is the only thing there is to go on, then why not start a campaign to have the DNA put into CODIS, if it hasn't been already. Meanwhile, I ask you to please look at the evidence and the events that transpired 12/25/96 & 12/25/96 - dissect it and use your dogged determination to find the truth starting from there. Please.

 

[AKWILKS]

http://www.fox13now.com/news/local/kstu-wanda-barzee-testify-elizabeth-smart-kidnapping-trial,0,3355188,full.story

"What caused their leaving? It seems like a pretty idyllic place, I'm wondering why they left?" Douglas asked.

"As they left, they had a yard sale and they just got rid of all their things. They had a truck that they took downtown to sell at a store there and they left it there with a for sale sign," she said. "That left the fifth wheel at our house. After the yard sale they just put backpacks on their backs and walked down the road and on down the road and I just see two people walking with backpacks and I just felt very sad."

McKnight's voice began getting emotional.

"They said, 'We're just going to go on our own,' and they walked away," she said. "All they had was whatever was in their backpack. He picked apples off the tree that we had and put them in his pockets and jacket and that was going to be their food for a while."

McKnight said she wondered what would happen to them.

"I said, 'Where are you going?' They said, 'Colorado,' " she testified.

 

[AKWILKS]

Much further up the thread, you had indicated a reluctance to answer hypothetical questions. But I think your theory is incomplete unless you can come up with some plausible explanations of why BDM/WB would do the following -

A) Leave the body in the house where it's likely to be found, thus making it impossible to collect the ransom.

B) If it's a "kidnapping gone bad" what went wrong to foil the original abduction plan?

I realize you can't say definitively what happened that night. I'm just asking you to support your theory with some plausible explanation of why Mitchel would do these things.

When BDM took Elizabeth Smart, she said she awoke to have a knife pressed against her neck. Had she jumped up or screamed, she might have died.

I can speculate that the ransom note was left either as a real attempt to get money (doubtful but possible, BDM wanted to start a church, and the paper days before said Ramsey had a billion dollar in sales) or as a diversion. BDM took JonBenet to the basement, perhaps to exit through a window perhaps for sex, and then either:

1. She screamed or resisted and he used too much force to silence her, either force on the noose he had prior or force by a blow from an object.

2. Being a sick pedophile, he gave in to his lust to "consumate the marriage" right there, with the added perverse thrill of the parents sleeping upstairs, and got carried away in his sadism, applying to much force on the noose.

There are other scenarios as well. WB states BDM once threw his own child against a bed headboard in anger. I can see BDM or a like pedophile intruder being far more likely to accidentailly, recklessly or intentionally kill JonBenet than Patsy, John or Burke.

It was reported that after losing custody of her kids, WB would walk around with a DOLL that she would dress and care for. Some aspects of the event, like the clothes change could have come from this desire to have a child. Also BDM was persuasive in getting compliance from his child victims, through a mix of force, threats and comforts and reassuring talk, and charismatic religious talk.

 

[Chrishope]

@AKWILKS

OK. That's possible.

 

[vlpate]

http://www.fox13now.com/news/local/kstu-wanda-barzee-testify-elizabeth-smart-kidnapping-trial,0,3355188,full.story

"What caused their leaving? It seems like a pretty idyllic place, I'm wondering why they left?" Douglas asked.

"As they left, they had a yard sale and they just got rid of all their things. They had a truck that they took downtown to sell at a store there and they left it there with a for sale sign," she said. "That left the fifth wheel at our house. After the yard sale they just put backpacks on their backs and walked down the road and on down the road and I just see two people walking with backpacks and I just felt very sad."

McKnight's voice began getting emotional.

"They said, 'We're just going to go on our own,' and they walked away," she said. "All they had was whatever was in their backpack. He picked apples off the tree that we had and put them in his pockets and jacket and that was going to be their food for a while."

McKnight said she wondered what would happen to them.

"I said, 'Where are you going?' They said, 'Colorado,' " she testified.

"Colorado" is not in the official transcript. Your source is a news article where McNight's feelings are interpreted by the reporter.

 

[AKWILKS]

The reporter "felt" she said "Colorado"?

No, you posted to a newspaper article that had portions of the transcript, but only SMALL SELECTED PORTIONS.

I linked to and quoted from a newspaper article that had far MORE testimony. McKnight said "Colorado."

ABC news had a reporter at the courthouse that wrote she said "Colorado."

http://www.abc4.com/content/news/el...izabeth-Smart/7rjDoBIhNUqCeh9XXi75LA.cspx?p=3

"McKnight said Brian and Wanda eventually sold their truck and other possessions and left Idaho with very few belongings as they went hitchhiking to Colorado."

FOX News also had a reporter at the trial who gave very long detailed reports and wrote that McKnight said "Colorado".

http://www.fox13now.com/news/local/...h-smart-kidnapping-trial,0,3355188,full.story

UPDATE at 11:18 a.m.: "Go ahead and get the jury," U.S. District Court Judge Dale Kimball sighed as he took the bench after a brief break.

Defense attorneys had trouble getting some of their witnesses to the courthouse. They asked for a conference with the judge after the break. The attorneys huddled off to the side of the bench and then went back to their tables.

Betty McKnight was called to the witness stand. She knew Brian David Mitchell and Wanda Barzee in 1995.

"How did you come to meet them?" defense attorney Parker Douglas asked.

McKnight said she was living in Idaho at the time and came to know the couple through their LDS church.

"There were a lot of people moving in at that time that were members of the church. We have a very strong, active church. Very talented people, a lot of them," she said.

Asked how she met Mitchell and Barzee she described them coming to their ward.

"Wanda was very talented," she said of Barzee being the church organist.

McKnight's husband was their home teacher, and claimed the couple was not happy living in the small Idaho town. She and her husband allowed them to move onto their 25-acre spread near the Idaho-Montana border.

Mitchell and Barzee had been living on a commune with eight families before coming to the McKnight property, she testified. Everyone was to work together at "The Farm."

"They tried to do everything in common," she said. "They'd be building buildings together. They had to give up everything they had and give that to 'The Farm.' "

Mitchell and Barzee needed to move because they didn't have enough money to be on the property, McKnight said. Several of the families on "The Farm" had begun living polygamy, she testified.

McKnight said Barzee played the organ every week in church.

"She played beautifully," she testified. "People would just come in, and sit in and listen. Everybody recognized that she was very good."

When Mitchell and Barzee moved onto their property, they lived there for about six months, McKnight said.

"She would come up and play our piano sometimes, and we would talk," McKnight said.

"Would she play requests?" defense attorney Parker Douglas asked.

"Oh yes!" McKnight exclaimed.

McKnight testified that she believed the couple were in love. Mitchell once spoke of religion.

"We'd been in Salt Lake for about a week and we came home and they had stayed in our home to kind of watch it," she said. "She was just glowing. Really happy. She told me, 'Oh, Betty. Brian just gave me a special blessing.' "

Barzee said Mitchell told her she was one of the "chosen people" and would play the organ for God after the Second Coming.

"She wanted to please the Lord in every way and be accepted. So I thought maybe Brian manipulated her that way. Promising her through blessings these things she wanted to hear," McKnight said.

McKnight's testimony was damaging for the defense case that Mitchell is insane.

"I think that was his control over her," she added.

Douglas tried to ask her if, at the time, she believed it was sincere.

"I guess a husband has a right to do that, but I don't think my husband would ever give me a blessing telling her the things he told her," she said. "Her reaction to it, he had sway over her because she was just so thrilled about it."

McKnight asked if she should continue or if he wanted to ask a question.

"Oh, you can go on," Douglas said.

McKnight described the trailer that Mitchell and Barzee lived in as "lovely" and clean. The sheets and towels were good quality.

"There was this huge picture of a girl playing a violin," she said. "It set a tone as you walked in there. She gave it, as she left, to a neighbor that studied at the Juliard School of Music. They did not camp and it wasn't like helter skelter stuff all over."

The couple never accumulated junk, McKnight said.

"What caused their leaving? It seems like a pretty idyllic place, I'm wondering why they left?" Douglas asked.

"As they left, they had a yard sale and they just got rid of all their things. They had a truck that they took downtown to sell at a store there and they left it there with a for sale sign," she said. "That left the fifth wheel at our house. After the yard sale they just put backpacks on their backs and walked down the road and on down the road and I just see two people walking with backpacks and I just felt very sad."

McKnight's voice began getting emotional.

"They said, 'We're just going to go on our own,' and they walked away," she said. "All they had was whatever was in their backpack. He picked apples off the tree that we had and put them in his pockets and jacket and that was going to be their food for a while."

McKnight said she wondered what would happen to them.

"I said, 'Where are you going?' They said, 'Colorado,' " she testified.

Under cross-examination, federal prosecutor Felice Viti asked if she ever suspected mental illness.

"They just appeared like everybody else. His hair was cut, no beard. She always looked very well kept with her makeup and hairdo. She could make it a thousand different ways with her hair," McKnight testified.

Asked if she overheard why Mitchell left the commune, McKnight said: "They were unhappy."

Asked if Wanda was submissive, McKnight replied "yes." They spoke of Barzee's love of music. Stopping the music for Barzee would be "like tearing out her heart," McKnight said.

 

[karenmamo]

I am so glad now that I never followed this case. (Ramsey) I just learned today that John Ramsey got himself involved with Beth Holloway. Where have I been? Head in sand I think.

 

[SunnieRN]

I wouldn't call it a 'theory'. I think it is just a possibility that is worthy of exploring. As Hooper said to Brody in Jaws, "You got any better ideas?"

There are MANY better possibilities in the threads on this forum. Doesn't mean your idea is not as 'good', it's just not as feasible. That is the difference, imho, between your 'possibility' and any 'possibility' that has one or more of the people last KNOWN to be, not only in Boulder, but IN the house with JonBenet that night.

 

[Roy23]

There are MANY better possibilities in the threads on this forum. Doesn't mean your idea is not as 'good', it's just not as feasible. That is the difference, imho, between your 'possibility' and any 'possibility' that has one or more of the people last KNOWN to be, not only in Boulder, but IN the house with JonBenet that night.

Well, I think we all want it solved. I don't care what they do as long as they look at it all. The DNA needs to be figured out. Whether IDI or RDI an answer has to be found or explained. I am for making sure that all nutcases like BDM are looked at because he broke into houses and was mobile. Is it a longshot--yeah. But they also suspected a family member for a long long time his case as well. He was also a drifter that probably was not with family for Xmas.

I don't see any proof against him at all. But he would be the exact kind of person that could do something like this. Unless we care more about being right than we do justice. I can say I have assumed they had already tested him for this. But I want to know. Anybody should!!!!

 

[vlpate]

The reporter "felt" she said "Colorado"?

No, you posted to a newspaper article that had portions of the transcript, but only SMALL SELECTED PORTIONS.

I linked to and quoted from a newspaper article that had far MORE testimony. McKnight said "Colorado."

ABC news had a reporter at the courthouse that wrote she said "Colorado."

http://www.abc4.com/content/news/el...izabeth-Smart/7rjDoBIhNUqCeh9XXi75LA.cspx?p=3

"McKnight said Brian and Wanda eventually sold their truck and other possessions and left Idaho with very few belongings as they went hitchhiking to Colorado."

FOX News also had a reporter at the trial who gave very long detailed reports and wrote that McKnight said "Colorado".

http://www.fox13now.com/news/local/...h-smart-kidnapping-trial,0,3355188,full.story

UPDATE at 11:18 a.m.: "Go ahead and get the jury," U.S. District Court Judge Dale Kimball sighed as he took the bench after a brief break.

Defense attorneys had trouble getting some of their witnesses to the courthouse. They asked for a conference with the judge after the break. The attorneys huddled off to the side of the bench and then went back to their tables.

Betty McKnight was called to the witness stand. She knew Brian David Mitchell and Wanda Barzee in 1995.

"How did you come to meet them?" defense attorney Parker Douglas asked.

McKnight said she was living in Idaho at the time and came to know the couple through their LDS church.

"There were a lot of people moving in at that time that were members of the church. We have a very strong, active church. Very talented people, a lot of them," she said.

Asked how she met Mitchell and Barzee she described them coming to their ward.

"Wanda was very talented," she said of Barzee being the church organist.

McKnight's husband was their home teacher, and claimed the couple was not happy living in the small Idaho town. She and her husband allowed them to move onto their 25-acre spread near the Idaho-Montana border.

Mitchell and Barzee had been living on a commune with eight families before coming to the McKnight property, she testified. Everyone was to work together at "The Farm."

"They tried to do everything in common," she said. "They'd be building buildings together. They had to give up everything they had and give that to 'The Farm.' "

Mitchell and Barzee needed to move because they didn't have enough money to be on the property, McKnight said. Several of the families on "The Farm" had begun living polygamy, she testified.

McKnight said Barzee played the organ every week in church.

"She played beautifully," she testified. "People would just come in, and sit in and listen. Everybody recognized that she was very good."

When Mitchell and Barzee moved onto their property, they lived there for about six months, McKnight said.

"She would come up and play our piano sometimes, and we would talk," McKnight said.

"Would she play requests?" defense attorney Parker Douglas asked.

"Oh yes!" McKnight exclaimed.

McKnight testified that she believed the couple were in love. Mitchell once spoke of religion.

"We'd been in Salt Lake for about a week and we came home and they had stayed in our home to kind of watch it," she said. "She was just glowing. Really happy. She told me, 'Oh, Betty. Brian just gave me a special blessing.' "

Barzee said Mitchell told her she was one of the "chosen people" and would play the organ for God after the Second Coming.

"She wanted to please the Lord in every way and be accepted. So I thought maybe Brian manipulated her that way. Promising her through blessings these things she wanted to hear," McKnight said.

McKnight's testimony was damaging for the defense case that Mitchell is insane.

"I think that was his control over her," she added.

Douglas tried to ask her if, at the time, she believed it was sincere.

"I guess a husband has a right to do that, but I don't think my husband would ever give me a blessing telling her the things he told her," she said. "Her reaction to it, he had sway over her because she was just so thrilled about it."

McKnight asked if she should continue or if he wanted to ask a question.

"Oh, you can go on," Douglas said.

McKnight described the trailer that Mitchell and Barzee lived in as "lovely" and clean. The sheets and towels were good quality.

"There was this huge picture of a girl playing a violin," she said. "It set a tone as you walked in there. She gave it, as she left, to a neighbor that studied at the Juliard School of Music. They did not camp and it wasn't like helter skelter stuff all over."

The couple never accumulated junk, McKnight said.

"What caused their leaving? It seems like a pretty idyllic place, I'm wondering why they left?" Douglas asked.

"As they left, they had a yard sale and they just got rid of all their things. They had a truck that they took downtown to sell at a store there and they left it there with a for sale sign," she said. "That left the fifth wheel at our house. After the yard sale they just put backpacks on their backs and walked down the road and on down the road and I just see two people walking with backpacks and I just felt very sad."

McKnight's voice began getting emotional.

"They said, 'We're just going to go on our own,' and they walked away," she said. "All they had was whatever was in their backpack. He picked apples off the tree that we had and put them in his pockets and jacket and that was going to be their food for a while."

McKnight said she wondered what would happen to them.

"I said, 'Where are you going?' They said, 'Colorado,' " she testified.

Under cross-examination, federal prosecutor Felice Viti asked if she ever suspected mental illness.

"They just appeared like everybody else. His hair was cut, no beard. She always looked very well kept with her makeup and hairdo. She could make it a thousand different ways with her hair," McKnight testified.

Asked if she overheard why Mitchell left the commune, McKnight said: "They were unhappy."

Asked if Wanda was submissive, McKnight replied "yes." They spoke of Barzee's love of music. Stopping the music for Barzee would be "like tearing out her heart," McKnight said.

I'm not trying to get into a pi%%ng match with you AK, I'm just not going to the one to let it stay out there without rebuttal. If you have a copy of the official trial transcript, and it shows McKnight talked about picking apples and Colorado, I will never open this thread again. Not a news article but a legal document. If a news article isn't good enough for the palm print and the pubic hair, it shouldn't be good enough for apples and Colorado.

 

[AKWILKS]

If in your world it is possible that the Fox News reporter and the ABC News reporter BOTH hallucinated McKnight saying "Colorado", I will not spend one second more of my life trying to convince you otherwise. What color is the sky in your world? Have fun there, I am due back on Earth now.

 

[AKWILKS]

There are MANY better possibilities in the threads on this forum. Doesn't mean your idea is not as 'good', it's just not as feasible. That is the difference, imho, between your 'possibility' and any 'possibility' that has one or more of the people last KNOWN to be, not only in Boulder, but IN the house with JonBenet that night.

So when Polly Klass went missing from her house, you would have confined the investigation to her father and others in the home? And when Jaycee Dugard was snatched, you also would have confined the investigation to family members? And you would know the next day that Elizabeth Smart was also killed or kidnapped by family members? And when the Lindbergh baby vanished, and a ransom note was left, you would have focused on the family yet again?

I hate to break this to you, but there are pedophiles, perverts, serial killers and others who break into homes and take and/or kill children. After the new DNA results, and considering all the other evidence, it makes no sense to dismiss an intruder theory, just as it makes no sense to completely dismiss the RDI theory. Does everyone here want to solve the case whoever the guilty party may be, or do some only want a solution if it shows one of the Ramsey's did it?

You say it is more feasible if the suspect was in the home, I say it is more feasible if the suspect is a known pedophile, rapist and home invasion kidnapper.

 

[vlpate]

So when Polly Klass went missing from her house, you would have confined the investigation to her father and others in the home?

Her father wasn't anywhere near the home. Her school friends and her mother were in the home and they witnessed the man who took her.

And when Jaycee Dugard was snatched, you also would have confined the investigation to family members?

Jaycee's step father went through hell, and, she wasn't snatched from her home, but from a street on her way to school.

And you would know the next day that Elizabeth Smart was also killed or kidnapped by family members?

Won't go there.

 

[vlpate]

If in your world it is possible that the Fox News reporter and the ABC News reporter BOTH hallucinated McKnight saying "Colorado", I will not spend one second more of my life trying to convince you otherwise. What color is the sky in your world? Have fun there, I am due back on Earth now.

Yep, who needs all that source mumbo jumo, so time consuming.

Anyway, let's talk about the DNA....and speaking of newspaper articles, here's one to take into consideration.


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,379981,00.html


FOXNEWS.COM HOME > OPINION

Scott Shapiro: DA Wrong to Clear Ramseys
Friday, July 11, 2008
By Jeffrey Scott Shapiro

Boulder District Attorney Mary Lacy on Wednesday publicly cleared the entire Ramsey family (under duress of a possible lawsuit by Lin Wood), of any involvement in the murder of JonBenet Ramsey, a fatal error that only complements the repeated misjudgments she has made in the case since she was elected.

Her decision was based on the fact that minuscule particles of foreign DNA that were found in JonBenet’s underpants apparently match skin cells discovered on the waistband of JonBenet’s leggings. Although this DNA may match, Lacy’s own words prove this particular DNA may not even be relevant.

In 2006, after Lacy extradited John Mark Karr, an otherwise innocent man, from Thailand, to erroneously charge him with the murder, she announced: "The DNA could be an artifact. It isn't necessarily the killer’s. There’s a probability that it’s the killer’s. But it could be something else."

Forensic expert Henry Lee most likely would agree that the foreign DNA in question most likely is "artifact," because he always has said he believes it actually is the result of contamination and that it is completely unrelated to the crime.

In fact, early on in the case a panel of pediatric experts determined that JonBenet was a victim of long-term sexual abuse, which would mean her killer probably is someone she knew.

Steve Thomas, the Boulder Police Department’s lead detective who logged more hours on the case than any other officer, publicly endorsed the theory. Thomas believed that Patsy Ramsey, the little girl’s mother, was the real killer.

Although the Boulder Police Department never officially commented on Thomas’ theory, it is common knowledge in the Boulder law enforcement community that Thomas was echoing the conclusion of the actual investigation.

At no time did the Boulder Police Department believe JonBenet was killed by an intruder; nonetheless, Lacy persistently has done everything in her power to manipulate public opinion in favor of the intruder theory. Although that theory should continue to be explored until the case is solved, Lacy’s motivation for promoting it with so much passion is suspicious.

It’s no secret that in 1997, when Lacy was a sex-assault prosecutor under then-DA Alex Hunter, she was furious when he did not appoint her to work on the case. Because Hunter and the police shied away from the intruder theory, many law enforcement officials often wonder if Lacy’s attempts to prove them wrong are driven more by her personal feelings than by the actual pursuit of justice.

Shortly after taking office, Lacy announced in 2003 that she believed the Ramseys were innocent, an unusual and inappropriate statement for a prosecutor to make during an ongoing investigation.

In fact, during the Karr debacle, Lacy also said that "no one is really cleared of a homicide until there’s a conviction in court, beyond a reasonable doubt. And I don’t think you will get any prosecutor, unless they were present with the person at the time of the crime, to clear someone."

There is no question the Ramsey case has been unusually long, and the Ramsey family has suffered terrible heartbreak and undeserving cruel attacks from the media. Although the family deserves compassion, JonBenet deserves justice and Lacy’s motivation is misguided.

Almost nothing Lacy has done has been based on the solid, investigative work compiled by the Boulder Police Department or the opinions expressed by the FBI. Lacy, who had no official contact with the Ramsey case under the leadership of Hunter, has disregarded the opinions of every law enforcement agency and forensic expert who worked on the case.
Her arrogance and incompetence is beyond compare.

Despite her repeated attempts to convince the public that her belief is grounded in the highly respected science of DNA, it appears that her rationale is flawed. If Lacy were serious about solving the Ramsey case, she would re-invite the original police investigators and FBI agents, who know the case inside and out, to come back and advise her.

She’ll never do that, however, because for Mary Lacy none of this really is about JonBenet — it’s about her legacy and her ego.
Jeffrey Scott Shapiro is an investigative reporter who worked on the JonBenet Ramsey case for more than 10 years. He practices law in Washington, D.C., and can be reached at jshapiro@ufl.edu.
________________________
Bold emphasis and wording in parenthesis mine.

 

[Chrishope]

So when Polly Klass went missing from her house, you would have confined the investigation to her father and others in the home? And when Jaycee Dugard was snatched, you also would have confined the investigation to family members? And you would know the next day that Elizabeth Smart was also killed or kidnapped by family members? And when the Lindbergh baby vanished, and a ransom note was left, you would have focused on the family yet again?

I hate to break this to you, but there are pedophiles, perverts, serial killers and others who break into homes and take and/or kill children. After the new DNA results, and considering all the other evidence, it makes no sense to dismiss an intruder theory, just as it makes no sense to completely dismiss the RDI theory. Does everyone here want to solve the case whoever the guilty party may be, or do some only want a solution if it shows one of the Ramsey's did it?

You say it is more feasible if the suspect was in the home, I say it is more feasible if the suspect is a known pedophile, rapist and home invasion kidnapper.

I'm not trying to be offensive, but you genuinely do not seem to recognize the significance of the fact that JBR's dead body was in her home, along with the RN. Polly Klass was not in her home when reported missing. Jaycee Dugard was not in her home when reported missing. Elizabeth Smart was not in her home when reported missing. The Lindberg baby was not in the home when reported missing.

Even if we assume that the Rs are innocent - you know, just for the sake of discussion- when JBR's body was found the case transformed from kidnapping to murder. A murder of a girl, in her own home. At that point, it just makes sense for the parents to be prime suspects.

If JBR's body had been found miles away, or never found at all, there would be little reason to suspect the Rs. The fact that the body was found in the home is an excellent reason to suspect the Rs.

You're right that investigators can't close their mind to various possibilities, but death at the hands of a family member does seem much more likely, to most people, than an intruder.

Hopefully the CODIS comparison will be made sooner, rather than later. That way we can either solve the crime, or lay to rest another theory.

 

[ChandlerBing]

First post - be gentle. A few things I've been thinking about BDM/WB being the killer:

A. If they were indeed in Colorado at that time, it could be possible that they met the Ramseys at their church - as a couple in need of food, work, etc - maybe BDM did do under the table jobs at the Ramsey home - maybe he and Wanda even broke in and lived in their basement for a day or two prior to JonBenet's death - and had plenty of time to move about in the house, listen in on conversations, snoop when the Rs were away, etc. It is not unheard of for people to break in when homeowners are away and to stay in the basement - that happened in Ottawa with Russell Williams (his victim went downstairs to get her cat from the furnace room and RW was there waiting for her). If BDM and WB were homeless and the house was big, they may have felt quite comfortable there - they were pretty brazen, bold people it seems.

2. Maybe the reason Burke's boot print was possibly in the basement - an area that no one ever went into - was because he heard something down there and went to check? He is only 9, but maybe he just thought it was his mom hiding Christmas presents or something down there - but it was BDM or WB that he actually heard. He probably didn't check the entire basement, being only 9.

3. Also, maybe the suitcase was under the window because BDM was passing things to or from the outside where WB was waiting on the night of the attempted kidnapping or murder? Or maybe they had used this opening previously to pass things through? I do think the suitcase was packed in order to take with them with JB. Maybe they were just communicating through this window during the kidnapping attempt? I'm still unsure as to why they were in the basement and hadn't just exited through the main level door in order to make a fast escape - maybe they forgot the packed suitcase in the basement and went to get it, but at that point JB screamed or something, leading to the murder? And once BDM administered the death blow, maybe he just figured he couldn't let an opportunity pass him by, raped her, and then garrotted her just to make sure she was absolutely dead?

4. Maybe this was so muddled (i.e. unorganized) - JB left in the basement, headblow, garrotte, etc., was because it was their first attempt at a kidnapping. Maybe it was more of a crime of opportunity - they were staying in the Rs basement, and saw JB or her picture in the house when snooping, and decided then to kidnap her and did not have a very well thought out plan B in case something were to go wrong (i.e. JB were to scream or fight).

5. Regarding the RN - maybe WB or BDM practiced PRs handwriting - I know that I myself can copy signatures very easily, and when I was an adolescent I wrote a note to my one brother in my other brother's handwriting - it took me just a few seconds to figure out how to copy his writing - and my entire family thought my brother had in fact written the note (I confessed within minutes - I'm a lightweight). Sometimes my friends have me copy signatures as a party trick. WB may have had this ability because she did work on changing her writing, so it may have been a talent of hers.

6. Regarding JB eating the pineapple - I've read that some people think she went downstairs to get a snack - in my experience, my kids would never at age six have gone to the kitchen themselves to get a snack, especially in the middle of the night. They would have woken me up and said "I'm hungry" - although, once asleep, they would never have woken up and wanted a snack, really. IMO, it makes sense that WB or BDM would have made a snack for JB to comfort her, maybe even provide sustenance for a long walk about to take place.

Just a few thoughts, I still have to read the majority of JB threads here so please forgive me if these have already been thoroughly discussed.