Possible NEW Suspects In JonBenet Ramsey Case?

[Roy23]

You surely know this is if you are keeping up with your "suspects".
http://crime.about.com/b/2011/07/12/no-appeal-for-brain-david-mitchell.htm

Did you happen to ask the BPD if BDM IS a suspect? Why would they clear someone as a suspect if they were never a suspect to begin with?

BPD takes information from all sorts of theororists - take Nancy Krebbs, aka, mystery woman. Beckner even made an announcement after a complete investigation of her wacky claims. Not that your claims are wacky, just sayin', they have a responsibility to accept tips.

Seriously, why be so dismissive? I understand you think this is far-fetched. It is certainly a long shot but I imagine there weren't many people out West nuts enough on Christmas Holiday to snatch and kill children.

Either way it would be nice to have confirmed that this guy is excluded.

 

[mtwentz]

One word for this BDM theory.

FAIL.

I wouldn't call it a 'theory'. I think it is just a possibility that is worthy of exploring. As Hooper said to Brody in Jaws, "You got any better ideas?"

 

[vlpate]

Seriously, why be so dismissive? I understand you think this is far-fetched. It is certainly a long shot but I imagine there weren't many people out West nuts enough on Christmas Holiday to snatch and kill children.

Either way it would be nice to have confirmed that this guy is excluded.

No one snatched her. The ransom note was over-kill. Why would a kidnapper kill JonBenet and then leave evidence of his/her handwriting behind? Especially since he/she left not one other piece of evidence.

 

[Roy23]

No one snatched her. The ransom note was over-kill. Why would a kidnapper kill JonBenet and then leave evidence of his/her handwriting behind? Especially since he/she left not one other piece of evidence.

:banghead:

 

[AKWILKS]

No one snatched her. The ransom note was over-kill. Why would a kidnapper kill JonBenet and then leave evidence of his/her handwriting behind? Especially since he/she left not one other piece of evidence.

http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682457/Comparison to Other Famous RN's


Similarities to Ramsey Case

•Child Killed Despite Ransom Demand. These include Bobby Franks (age 14), Marian Parker (age 12), the Lindbergh baby (age 20 months), Susan Degnan (age 6), Peter Weinberger (age 33 days) and apparently Clark Handa (age 3).

•No Effort to Collect Ransom Demanded. These include Peter Weinberger (though failure to collect ransom amount left as instructed may have been due to incompetence of kidnapper) and Clark Handa.

•Ransom Note "Bogus." Several of these "kidnappings" entail ransom notes that were "bogus" in the sense that the note was written with the intent to throw off law enforcement or the "kidnapper" knew the victim already was dead and could not be returned alive even had a ransom been paid (which, in some cases, it was). These include Bobby Franks (ransom paid), Marian Parker (ransom paid), the Lindbergh baby (ransom paid), Susan Degnan (body discovered before ransom paid), Peter Weinberger (ransom payment attempted), Gail Jackson (no ransom paid) and Clark Handa (no effort to collect ransom).




Bobby Franks (1924)

•Case Details. This is the infamous Leopold and Loeb case, involving a college student and law student who kidnapped and murdered Bobby Franks in the course of committing the "perfect crime." During the course of trying to pay the ransom amount, the boy's father learned his son had been found dead. See details at Court TV Crime Library.

•Side-by-Side Comparison to Ramsey Note. A "side-by-side" comparison of the RN to the note used by Leopold and Loeb in the kidnapping and murder of 14-year old Bobby Franks is at Webbsleuths.



Marian Parker (1927)

•Case Details. Marian, age 12, "was snatched in 1927 by someone who sent ransom notes to the family. But kidnapping wasn't the motive; the "kidnapper" collected a ransom and delivered the girl back to her family -- she had been killed and her body desecrated in a classic case of Lustmord or lust murder. See an excellent summary by Mark Gribben." Source: Laura James at Clews The Historic True Crime Blog.



Lindbergh Baby (1932)

•Case Details. Despite the payment of a ransom, the body of 20-month old Charles A. Lindbergh Jr. was found dead 73 days later, apparently having been killed close to the time of the kidnapping. See details at Court TV Crime Library.

•Contents of Note. "Dear Sir! Have 50,000$ redy 2500$ in 20$ bills 1 5000$ in 10$ bills and 10000$ in 5$ bills. After 2-4 days we will inform you were to deliver the Mony. We warn you for making anyding public or for the polise the child is in gut care. Indication for all letters are signature and 3 holes" (full note here (link provided by Internet poster Athena).
•Side-by-Side Comparison to Ramsey Note. A link to a scan of the note used in the case of the kidnapping of the Lindbergh baby, along a detailed comparison of the details of that case with the JBR case is contained in a letter from New York lawyer Darnay Hoffman to Boulder DA Alex Hunter.



Susan Degnan (1946)

•Case Details. "A killer left a ransom note when he took Suzanne Degnan, 6, from her home in the middle of the night on January 6, 1946. Her dismembered body was found the next day. A child molester named Richard Thomas confessed to the murder, though notorious killer William Heirens also confessed to the killing. In either event, it was clearly a sex murder and not a kidnapping, regardless of the note. See the Court TV Crime Library." Source: Laura James at Clews The Historic True Crime Blog.

•Contents of Note. "Get $20,000 ready & waite (sic) for word. Do not notify FBI or police. Bills in $5's and $10's." On the backside was a warning: "Burn this for her safty (sic)" (Crime Library).



Peter Weinberger (1956)

•Case Details. Weinberger, an infant 33 days old, was kidnapped from the patio of his home 10 minutes after his mother placed him in a carriage. Despite several abortive attempts to deliver the specified ransom amount, the baby was never returned, and the kidnapper later confessed he had abandoned the baby (later found dead) shortly after the kidnapping. (Newsday.com).

•Contents of Note. "The ransom note was scrawled in green ink on a sheet torn from a student notebook. 'Attention,' it said. 'I'm sorry this had to happen, but I am in bad need of money, & couldn't get it any other way. Don't tell anyone or go to the police about this, because I am watching you closely. I am scared stiff, & will kill the baby at your first wrong move ... Your baby sitter.' It demanded $2,000 in small bills. The money was to be placed in a brown envelope and left near the Weinberger home, next to a signpost at Albemarle Road and Park Avenue, at 10 o'clock the next morning." Newsday.com (link provided by Internet poster Athena).



Gail Jackson (1978)

•Case Details. After murdering prostitute Gail Jackson, William Hance sent 5 letters to the Chief of Police to avert suspicion from himself (opinion).

•Contents of Notes. "The letters were signed "Forces of Evil," a fictitious group the appellant had created. The second of these letters received by the Chief of Police demanded either the apprehension of the Columbus strangler or a $10,000 ransom in return for the victim's safety. In addition, the appellant found an Army Cap with a different unit insignia than his unit and placed this near the crime scene, also in order to avert suspicion" opinion(link provided by Internet poster Athena). Donald Pugh has observed that this note used the line "We are an organization composed of seven members."

Clark Handa (1984)

•Case Details. Handa, age 3, "was kidnapped from his own home in 1984. A ransom note was left behind. Clark has never been found, and no one ever tried to collect any ransom for his return." details.

Source: Laura James at Clews The Historic True Crime Blog.

 

[Chrishope]

Similarities to Ramsey Case

•Child Killed Despite Ransom Demand. These include Bobby Franks (age 14), Marian Parker (age 12), the Lindbergh baby (age 20 months), Susan Degnan (age 6), Peter Weinberger (age 33 days) and apparently Clark Handa (age 3).

Bobby Franks was killed outside his home and his body left in a culvert before any attempt was made to collect ransom - IOWs collection was possible, because the body wasn't in the basement where it would be found the same day. No similarity.

Marion Parker was taken from her school under false pretenses, and not left in her home to be found. She was killed about 12 hours before the ransom was collected. No similarity.

The Lindbergh baby was taken from his home, not left hidden in the home. The ransom was paid over a month before the body was found. The body was discovered not far from the Lindbergh home, but some effort was made to hide it. No similarity.

Susan Degnan was taken from her home, not left in the basement. Her dead body was found the next day, and the RN was fake (in the sense there was no attempt to collect). Similar in one respect, different in another.

Peter Weinberger was taken from his baby carriage and later left in some brush to die. There is no way the parents could have known whether Peter was alive or dead when they tried to comply with the kidnappers instructions on where to drop the money. No similarity.

Clark Handa was taken from his home and never seen again. We do not know that he is dead. Kidnappers left instructions but did not show up at the drop site. No similarity.

The only case you cite that was even remotely similar was the Degnan case in which the real motive was a sex crime and the RN was a ruse. But even here, the body was not left in Susan's house.

If you want a similar case, find one with a RN and the kidnapping victim's dead body in the victims own home.

•Ransom Note "Bogus." Several of these "kidnappings" entail ransom notes that were "bogus" in the sense that the note was written with the intent to throw off law enforcement or the "kidnapper" knew the victim already was dead and could not be returned alive even had a ransom been paid (which, in some cases, it was). These include Bobby Franks (ransom paid), Marian Parker (ransom paid), the Lindbergh baby (ransom paid), Susan Degnan (body discovered before ransom paid), Peter Weinberger (ransom payment attempted), Gail Jackson (no ransom paid) and Clark Handa (no effort to collect ransom).

You are really stretching trying to invent a similarity here. Kidnappers don't care whether or not they can actually deliver the victim back to the family, alive. What they care about is that the family believe the victim is still alive, or could still be alive. In all the cases you cited, the dead victims were not left inside their homes to be quickly and easily discovered. Only one RN was bogus. In 5 of the 6 cases there was at least some attempt to collect ransom - at the very least instructions were given (beyond "wait for my call"), though in two cases the kidnappers did not show at the drop. In the Weinberg case, the kidnapper probably would have picked up the money had the Daily News not run the story thereby alerting press and police.

The fact that the victim is dead does not make a RN bogus. It's still a real attempt to collect $ by promising the return of the loved one. What makes the Ramsey RN bogus is A) the victim's body was left in her own basement to be discovered the same day, and B) no ransom call ever came.

 

[AKWILKS]

No one snatched her. The ransom note was over-kill. Why would a kidnapper kill JonBenet and then leave evidence of his/her handwriting behind? Especially since he/she left not one other piece of evidence.

I was responding to the post quoted above. It asked why kill a child and leave a ransom note? I provided 6 cases were the child was killed, and a ransom note was left.

You say for most of them "no similarity"? Come on. Do they have to have left the child in a basement? Also be in Colorado? Of course you will seldom have two criminal situations exactly alike in every way.

The poster asked for situations where the child was dead, yet the killers left their handwriting in a ransom note. I provided a link to six.

Crimes, in particular a home invasion abduction/murder, in particular if done by a mentally disturbed person, is a very fluid situation. We don't know what happened, what went right, what went wrong, what was unexpected, what changed on spur of the moment, whether the plan was abduction for ransom with the murder unintended, abduction for sexual slavery with the murder unintended or planned murder with the ransom note as a diversion.

The point is there is historical precedent for a stranger/intruder to kill a child and yet still leave a ransom note.

Also, this was related to the general idea of intruder/nonintruder, but can we strive to keep this thread on the pros and cons of BDM and WB as suspects? There are many threads on general IDI vs. RDI.

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

I wouldn't call it a 'theory'. I think it is just a possibility that is worthy of exploring. As Hooper said to Brody in Jaws, "You got any better ideas?"

From what's been posted I don't see anything worse pursuing here other than it's a guy who's a sexual predator. Nothing wrong with checking his DNA and they reportedly are regularly checking new profiles, but based on the info here BDM was no more involved than any random name out of a phone book.

 

[AKWILKS]

From what's been posted I don't see anything worse pursuing here other than it's a guy who's a sexual predator. Nothing wrong with checking his DNA and they reportedly are regularly checking new profiles, but based on the info here BDM was no more involved than any random name out of a phone book.

Yep just pull any random name out of the phone book and you will likely get a known pedophile last stated destination for 1995 and 1996 Colorado with a history of molesting 3 to 6 year old girls with a belief that God has ordered him to do nighttime home invasion kidnappings of beautiful and talented blonde girls who live in large homes in wealthy areas, often on holidays, who come prepared with duct tape for their mouths and cord to bind them, and who with his female accomplice use words like "Hence", "We represent", "Individuals", "southern", "am", "As well as", "Being", "Deviate", "Instructions", "For Burial", "You Stand", "In Any Way" and a half dozen other words or stylistics in the JonBenet Ramsey ransom note, and also ends his capital "M" 's with a ski slope flourish.

Yes sir just pull any random name out of the phone book, and thats what you will get!

:floorlaugh:

 

[BBB167893]

Btw, I just finished Steve Thomas's book about the case, and I have to say it was very convincing. I did not realize until I read his book that the police believed Patsy did everything- the murder, the note etc.-and John theoretically only figured out Patsy was the perp when he found JBs body in the basement. That actually sounds more plausible- in theory- than the theory of a kidnapper/pedophile bent on revenge against John whilst trying to collect a small ransom at the same time.

The major problem with the book is that Thomas goes overboard in his ripping the D.A.'s office by implying political connections that I don't believe exist. For example, he implies that John Ramsey and the Democratic Party establishment of Colorado were in bed together. But we know for a fact that Ramsey is and always has been a right-wing Republican while Hunter is a New Age, liberal Democrat. And the Governor of Colorado ripping into the Rs does not indicate to me that Democratic politicians and John Ramsey were particularly close. If one assumes Alex Hunter was not aggressive in going after the Rs, I think it is better to say Hunter was an incompetent wimp who did not want to risk a chance of losing a high-profile case and leave it at that.

Well, just a few things. One, John Ramsey was a right-wing Republican, but the law firm he hired, Haddon and that bunch, were heavily connected to Democratic politics right up to an including the Clintons, who were in office at the time. It also helps to remember that the Republican governor Bill Owens who went after the Rs (in a completely symbolic way) was not the same Democrat governor Roy Romer who was in office when the Grand Jury was called--called mostly at Romer's insistence due to ST's resignation letter making the rounds and creating heat for the poli-chickens.

But you may be right. There's plenty of evidence that Hunter was exactly as you describe.

 

[BBB167893]

DNA isn't gonna solve this case. A legitimate confession is the only thing that will close it.

That's been the case since Day One.

 

[BBB167893]

I wouldn't call it a 'theory'. I think it is just a possibility that is worthy of exploring. As Hooper said to Brody in Jaws, "You got any better ideas?"

None that would be of any use NOW.

 

[vlpate]

I was responding to the post quoted above. It asked why kill a child and leave a ransom note? I provided 6 cases were the child was killed, and a ransom note was left.

You say for most of them "no similarity"? Come on. Do they have to have left the child in a basement? Also be in Colorado? Of course you will seldom have two criminal situations exactly alike in every way.

The poster asked for situations where the child was dead, yet the killers left their handwriting in a ransom note. I provided a link to six.

Crimes, in particular a home invasion abduction/murder, in particular if done by a mentally disturbed person, is a very fluid situation. We don't know what happened, what went right, what went wrong, what was unexpected, what changed on spur of the moment, whether the plan was abduction for ransom with the murder unintended, abduction for sexual slavery with the murder unintended or planned murder with the ransom note as a diversion.

The point is there is historical precedent for a stranger/intruder to kill a child and yet still leave a ransom note.

Also, this was related to the general idea of intruder/nonintruder, but can we strive to keep this thread on the pros and cons of BDM and WB as suspects? There are many threads on general IDI vs. RDI.

You know I meant kill her and leave her and the ransom note behind. As Christophe said, no similarity. Find one case where a ransom note and the kidnap victim were left within feet of each other.

Actually, I thought you were going to use the Zahra Baker case. The police found a ransom note at the step mother's home....they found Zahra had been dismembered in the bathtub. Zahra's step mother said the precious little girl had died and the father dismembered her.

So yes, there are cases where the ransom note was left in the same place the victim was killed. Unfortunately for the step mother, she did not have the means to lawyer up and avoid interviews with the police for months. She's been charged with murder and awaiting trial.

 

[vlpate]

Yep just pull any random name out of the phone book and you will likely get a known pedophile last stated destination for 1995 and 1996 Colorado with a history of molesting 3 to 6 year old girls with a belief that God has ordered him to do nighttime home invasion kidnappings of beautiful and talented blonde girls who live in large homes in wealthy areas, often on holidays, who come prepared with duct tape for their mouths and cord to bind them, and who with his female accomplice use words like "Hence", "We represent", "Individuals", "southern", "am", "As well as", "Being", "Deviate", "Instructions", "For Burial", "You Stand", "In Any Way" and a half dozen other words or stylistics in the JonBenet Ramsey ransom note, and also ends his capital "M" 's with a ski slope flourish.

Yes sir just pull any random name out of the phone book, and thats what you will get!

:floorlaugh:

Yet you can pull that their last known destination in 95 was Colorado out of places just as random. You selectively use passages from WB's journal and BDM's manifesto to fit your theory, yet Wanda clearly states in her journal they were nowhere near Colorado on Christmas day, 1996.

 

[vlpate]

:banghead:

Right?

 

[AKWILKS]

Yet you can pull that their last known destination in 95 was Colorado out of places just as random. You selectively use passages from WB's journal and BDM's manifesto to fit your theory, yet Wanda clearly states in her journal they were nowhere near Colorado on Christmas day, 1996.

Hmm, I use words out of their journal, to show that they use terms that appear in the ransom note, like "Hence", etc. I use the fact that they say that there were past "failed attempts" before Smart. And that Wanda says Brian picked up one of his children and threw the child at the headboard of the bed. For the most part I don't trust anything in the journal for truth as to locations and other things, it seems to have been written well after the fact.

The last known objective third party to hear them state where they were going to in 1995 (Mrs. McKnight) testifies they said "Colorado". Barzee in the journal says they spent the holidays of 1996 in Washington and Oregon, and then a homeless black man named "Phil" gave them $300 so they could go to Alaska. But then Barzee testified that after they left Idaho they went to Missouri to see a Mormon historical site, but couldn't remember what it was called or where it was or anything about it. Then she gave a third story, that they went west from Idaho on the way to the "wicked cities" of the East like Boston and New York.

Color me skeptical.

In any event, even if you want to disregard Mrs. McKnight saying they were going to Colorado, and accept whichever of the 3 stories you like best (Alaska via homeless man's $300 gift, Missouri but I don't remember where or Boston by way of going west from Idaho) the fact is they seem to have been mainly in the Western part of the country, and their home base was Salt Lake City, Utah, which is within a one day drive to Boulder, Colorado.

 

[BBB167893]

Right?

Don't hold your breath, vlpate.

 

[Chrishope]

I was responding to the post quoted above. It asked why kill a child and leave a ransom note? I provided 6 cases were the child was killed, and a ransom note was left.

You say for most of them "no similarity"? Come on. Do they have to have left the child in a basement? Also be in Colorado? Of course you will seldom have two criminal situations exactly alike in every way.

The poster asked for situations where the child was dead, yet the killers left their handwriting in a ransom note. I provided a link to six.

Crimes, in particular a home invasion abduction/murder, in particular if done by a mentally disturbed person, is a very fluid situation. We don't know what happened, what went right, what went wrong, what was unexpected, what changed on spur of the moment, whether the plan was abduction for ransom with the murder unintended, abduction for sexual slavery with the murder unintended or planned murder with the ransom note as a diversion.

The point is there is historical precedent for a stranger/intruder to kill a child and yet still leave a ransom note.

Also, this was related to the general idea of intruder/nonintruder, but can we strive to keep this thread on the pros and cons of BDM and WB as suspects? There are many threads on general IDI vs. RDI.

Yes, they have to be left in their own home. Doesn't have to be the basement. The attic, the pantry, behind the couch, wherever. Find me a case where the dead kidnapping victim's body is left in the victim's own home.

You do understand that if the body is found before the ransom call comes, ransom is not going to be paid, right? The fact that JBs body was in the house is an absolutely critical feature of this case. Care to explain why Mitchel would have done that?

You're right that kidnappers do write RNs and leave their handwriting behind as evidence. Beyond that, the cases you cite have no similarity.


As far as staying on subject, the M/B theory has been outlined and most of us think it's very very weak. I'm in favor of making the DNA test, but unless it comes back a match for Mitchell, I don't see that there is much else to talk about.

 

[Chrishope]

As far as the whereabouts of BDM and WB, I don't think there's any point arguing it. They are not the type of people who were pinned down to a particular place.

We don't know that they were in CO, but then again, we don't know they were not. The could have been anywhere from Boulder to Boston.

 

[Chrishope]

Much further up the thread, you had indicated a reluctance to answer hypothetical questions. But I think your theory is incomplete unless you can come up with some plausible explanations of why BDM/WB would do the following -

A) Leave the body in the house where it's likely to be found, thus making it impossible to collect the ransom.

B) If it's a "kidnapping gone bad" what went wrong to foil the original abduction plan?

I realize you can't say definitively what happened that night. I'm just asking you to support your theory with some plausible explanation of why Mitchel would do these things.