Possible Scenarios

[CathyR]

The American Girl dolls are not cheap. I have been looking at buying one for my granddaughter and have decided she will have to be much older as spending that much on a doll for a 18 month old child is ridiculous. Was it ever discovered who sent the doll to her? I can see someone buying this doll for her and having it sent to the office as it was supposed to be a surprise and the dolls come in shipping packages that even a 6 year old could figure out what is in the box. Who sent JBR the doll?

 

[DeeDee249]

The American Girl dolls are not cheap. I have been looking at buying one for my granddaughter and have decided she will have to be much older as spending that much on a doll for a 18 month old child is ridiculous. Was it ever discovered who sent the doll to her? I can see someone buying this doll for her and having it sent to the office as it was supposed to be a surprise and the dolls come in shipping packages that even a 6 year old could figure out what is in the box. Who sent JBR the doll?

The doll that was delivered to the Access Graphics office was apparently ordered AFTER JB's death, so it wasn't sent to her. We do not know who ordered it. I don't know if LE ever tried to determine who had it sent.
The American Girl dolls are recommended for girls at least 8 years old. There are American Girl Doll cruises now, and all activities are for girls 8 and older, younger siblings not allowed. There is a huge American Girl Doll Store in New York City that offers "Tea with your doll", etc. all for girls 8 and over. Obviously the store is open to the public of any age.
Target and similar stores sell 18" look-alike dolls that are the same size as the American Girl dolls and much cheaper. They can share clothes, too.
American Girl also makes a doll for younger girls- "Bitty Baby". No rooted hair on the basic doll, and is a baby doll appropriate for younger girls. I'd say a 2-year old could play with the Bitty Baby. All the American Girl Dolls and accessories are well made, but expensive. There are plenty of less expensive alternatives. Even Pottery Barn Kids now offers their version of the dolls, with limited clothes and furniture.

 

[Toltec]

Possibly, but I think it looks like Patsy had been crying. I don't think sedative use causes red eyes. The Barbie was laying in its box, I believe. Too bad the photos aren't clearer or uncropped.
Most little girls love dolls. Some grown women, too. I love dolls myself and at one point had quite an extensive collection of vintage Barbies and Ginny dolls. (all gotten and sold via eBay).
When my daughter was young, I enjoyed buying her dolls as much as she loved playing with them. That in itself is not unusual or odd. But I never thought of my little girl AS a doll, mine or anyone else's. With Patsy, it isn't the basement Barbie that is odd- it looks to be that year's (1996) Holiday issue doll- a fairly common gift at Christmas for many little girls. Of course, though the DOLL is not unusual, its being found in the basement near the dead body of its owner IS unusual.
JB liked Barbie, owning a large My Size (almost 3 feet tall) as well as the seeming Holiday Barbie in the basement photo and presumably several of the more common play-size Barbies (about 12 " tall). And she loved her Barbie nightie too.
The doll delivered to Access Graphics after JB's death was an American Girl doll. That is a doll that comes in many varieties depicting girls in all eras of American history. I am not sure what one was delivered. JB was said to own a "Samantha" American Girl doll. All the American Girl dolls are 18" tall with vinyl limbs and heads with rooted hair of varying colors and styles, and all have stuffed cloth bodies. They are made by the Pleasant Company. The dolls came with a white cord around their necks which held the vinyl head onto the cloth body. The cord was NOT the same kid of cord found on JB (which was flat nylon). The doll's manufacturer suggested that parents put a piece of duct tape over the knot in the cord at the back of the dolls' neck so that the knot and cord didn't interfere with brushing the dolls' hair or fastening the dolls' clothing.
The MyTwinn dolls are now made by Mattel, I think. Not sure if that was the case in 1996.

Interesting information regarding the American Girl Dolls. Did they really come wrapped in cord and duct tape? Is that why Patsy asked Pam to retrieve JonBenet's American Girl dolls?

My daughter is six years old...She has gotten barbies for her birthday and christmas. She also has the princess collection dolls. She rarely plays with them, preferring to play with make-up and nail polish. Barbies are so expensive and I've seen plenty of them in her bedroom with chewed off legs or arms (her dachsund). She has half dozen of them naked and in her tub...

What does Patsy expect from JonBenet? Did she really expect JonBenet to jump up and down and squeal once she opened the My Twinn Doll? The woman is clearly living through her daughter.

 

[UKGuy]

Possibly, but I think it looks like Patsy had been crying. I don't think sedative use causes red eyes. The Barbie was laying in its box, I believe. Too bad the photos aren't clearer or uncropped.
Most little girls love dolls. Some grown women, too. I love dolls myself and at one point had quite an extensive collection of vintage Barbies and Ginny dolls. (all gotten and sold via eBay).
When my daughter was young, I enjoyed buying her dolls as much as she loved playing with them. That in itself is not unusual or odd. But I never thought of my little girl AS a doll, mine or anyone else's. With Patsy, it isn't the basement Barbie that is odd- it looks to be that year's (1996) Holiday issue doll- a fairly common gift at Christmas for many little girls. Of course, though the DOLL is not unusual, its being found in the basement near the dead body of its owner IS unusual.
JB liked Barbie, owning a large My Size (almost 3 feet tall) as well as the seeming Holiday Barbie in the basement photo and presumably several of the more common play-size Barbies (about 12 " tall). And she loved her Barbie nightie too.
The doll delivered to Access Graphics after JB's death was an American Girl doll. That is a doll that comes in many varieties depicting girls in all eras of American history. I am not sure what one was delivered. JB was said to own a "Samantha" American Girl doll. All the American Girl dolls are 18" tall with vinyl limbs and heads with rooted hair of varying colors and styles, and all have stuffed cloth bodies. They are made by the Pleasant Company. The dolls came with a white cord around their necks which held the vinyl head onto the cloth body. The cord was NOT the same kid of cord found on JB (which was flat nylon). The doll's manufacturer suggested that parents put a piece of duct tape over the knot in the cord at the back of the dolls' neck so that the knot and cord didn't interfere with brushing the dolls' hair or fastening the dolls' clothing.
The MyTwinn dolls are now made by Mattel, I think. Not sure if that was the case in 1996.

DeeDee249,

Possibly, but I think it looks like Patsy had been crying. I don't think sedative use causes red eyes.

Could be crying, but I've seen people who do not sleep so well, on sedatives, who have those kind of red eyes.

The doll that was delivered to the Access Graphics office was apparently ordered AFTER JB's death, so it wasn't sent to her.

mmm, you know that for certain? Wonder what name was down as the recipient then?

Well I had a BDI theory that included the dolls, but with the Holiday Barbie resting on its box, this seemed to exclude much of the rationale behind the BDI.

Loosely, I'm considering the dolls as part of the primary crime-scene, and that the American Girl doll played a significant role.

The only other explanation might be some variation on cynic's undoing behaviour. But, for me, the catch is the attempted forensic replacement of the American Girl doll.

As you said : JonBenet was dead!


.

 

[UKGuy]

Interesting information regarding the American Girl Dolls. Did they really come wrapped in cord and duct tape? Is that why Patsy asked Pam to retrieve JonBenet's American Girl dolls?

My daughter is six years old...She has gotten barbies for her birthday and christmas. She also has the princess collection dolls. She rarely plays with them, preferring to play with make-up and nail polish. Barbies are so expensive and I've seen plenty of them in her bedroom with chewed off legs or arms (her dachsund). She has half dozen of them naked and in her tub...

What does Patsy expect from JonBenet? Did she really expect JonBenet to jump up and down and squeal once she opened the My Twinn Doll? The woman is clearly living through her daughter.

Toltec,

Is that why Patsy asked Pam to retrieve JonBenet's American Girl dolls?

Possibly, but why bother asking for it to be removed? Not unless it contained forensic evidence e.g. size-6 underwear or other biological evidence!


The intruder may have taken the duct-tape from the doll because it was beside JonBenet when the intruder came upon her. It's not critical to a R defense that the tape be seen to originate externally.

Also you do not need a NEW doll to replace duct-tape, you just tape any old duct tape onto the original doll and replace it wherever in the house?

So unless the dolls are being used as staging , postmortem etc, then I reckon they played a part?


.

 

[DeeDee249]

Interesting information regarding the American Girl Dolls. Did they really come wrapped in cord and duct tape? Is that why Patsy asked Pam to retrieve JonBenet's American Girl dolls?

What does Patsy expect from JonBenet? Did she really expect JonBenet to jump up and down and squeal once she opened the My Twinn Doll? The woman is clearly living through her daughter.

You misread my post. I did not say the doll came wrapped in cord or duct tape. I said the dolls come with a short piece of cord wrapped around the NECK to hold the vinyl head on to the cloth body. The dolls did not come with any duct tape on them. I also said that the manufacturer suggested that PARENTS put a piece of duct tape over the knot in the cord at the back of the dolls' neck because it sometimes interfered with the dolls' hair or clothes.
I posted a photo of an American Girl doll showing the neck cord on this forum long ago. If anyone has it saved, could you repost it? It may be helpful to newer posters on the case to see what I am talking about. I never save these things.

We do not know exactly why Patsy's sister was asked to get the doll, but one theory is that the tape allegedly removed from JB's mouth by her father may have come from the back of her doll. Obviously that doll wasn't kept in the basement and only a parent who had put the tape on the doll in the first place would know that the tape was there to be found and used on JB. I had read that JB's American Girl wasn't found in the home (by LE, presumably) and that may have made the parents "uneasy" about whether anyone may have suspected the tape came from the doll. So they may have had another doll sent (but not to the home because they never went back to the house again after the day JB was found) to substitute for the original doll- only this time they would not put the tape on the doll's neck.
IF the original doll had ever had duct tape on the neck cord, a residue of the glue from the tape would be able to be detected by forensic methods. Then it could be tested against the glue on the back of the piece of tape that had been on JB's lips. If it matched, then we have a source for the where the tape came from! And it also points again to the parents. No intruder, especially a foreign one, would know that the doll had tape on her neck under the clothes.

 

[cynic]

I posted a photo of an American Girl doll showing the neck cord on this forum long ago. If anyone has it saved, could you repost it? It may be helpful to newer posters on the case to see what I am talking about. I never save these things.

Was it this?

 

[DeeDee249]

Was it this?

Yes! Thank you!

 

[eileenhawkeye]

Interesting information regarding the American Girl Dolls. Did they really come wrapped in cord and duct tape? Is that why Patsy asked Pam to retrieve JonBenet's American Girl dolls?

My daughter is six years old...She has gotten barbies for her birthday and christmas. She also has the princess collection dolls. She rarely plays with them, preferring to play with make-up and nail polish. Barbies are so expensive and I've seen plenty of them in her bedroom with chewed off legs or arms (her dachsund). She has half dozen of them naked and in her tub...

What does Patsy expect from JonBenet? Did she really expect JonBenet to jump up and down and squeal once she opened the My Twinn Doll? The woman is clearly living through her daughter.

JonBenet had received an American Girl doll for her 6th birthday which she liked a lot, so I don't think it was that far fetched that she would like the My Twinn doll. They are very similar to the AG dolls, but they are bigger in size. I believe JonBenet would have liked the doll better if it had straight blonde or brunette hair, and was wearing a casual outfit instead of looking like JonBenet during a beauty pageant.

When I was younger, I had 5 AG dolls and a My Twinn doll. My mom also had a My Twinn doll. It wasn't a surprise that we were getting them and I remember my mom spend weeks picking out my dolls' features to match mine; for example, she would make me stare at her so she could find my exact eye color. It took a lot of time, so I can see why Patsy would be disappointed that JBR didn't like the doll. It's not like AG dolls, where you just chose one girl out of like 7 or 8 to buy. Also, my mom liked the My Twinn dolls a lot more than I did, haha, but I didn't reject the doll right away like JonBenet did. It wasn't until a few weeks after Christmas when I realized that my AG dolls were just more fun to play with.

 

[DeeDee249]

JonBenet had received an American Girl doll for her 6th birthday which she liked a lot, so I don't think it was that far fetched that she would like the My Twinn doll. They are very similar to the AG dolls, but they are bigger in size. I believe JonBenet would have liked the doll better if it had straight blonde or brunette hair, and was wearing a casual outfit instead of looking like JonBenet during a beauty pageant.

When I was younger, I had 5 AG dolls and a My Twinn doll. My mom also had a My Twinn doll. It wasn't a surprise that we were getting them and I remember my mom spend weeks picking out my dolls' features to match mine; for example, she would make me stare at her so she could find my exact eye color. It took a lot of time, so I can see why Patsy would be disappointed that JBR didn't like the doll. It's not like AG dolls, where you just chose one girl out of like 7 or 8 to buy. Also, my mom liked the My Twinn dolls a lot more than I did, haha, but I didn't reject the doll right away like JonBenet did. It wasn't until a few weeks after Christmas when I realized that my AG dolls were just more fun to play with.

I think the AG dolls seemed more like a play doll, with lots of cool accessories and clothes. I am over 60, but I love when the Pleasant Company Catalog comes and wish I had someone to buy those neat little furniture sets for.
I am not sure how old you are (and you can keep it a secret if you like) but the MyTwinn dolls are made by a different company now than when they originally were sold. The early ones were one-of-a-kind made from a photograph of the child, and included facial features like face shape, dimples, freckles, pierced ears, etc. There were many different hair and eye options. There still are, but the dolls are less customized as far as the exact details. I don't know if the clothes on the dolls now are custom made, I think originally they were (like the pageant dress and tiara). The AG dolls come in many versions, too, not just 7 or 8. The "character dolls" (Like Samantha, Felicity, Kirsten, Addie, etc) are fixed as to their eye and hair color and hairstyle, but the modern dolls come in dozens of hair/eye combinations. They can be seen on their website. I think Mattel bought the Pleasant Doll Company, but still sells under the name.

 

[Toltec]

Well whatever JonBenet liked to play with...note that there were no Barbie Dolls in her bedroom. Her favorite was a stuffed animal...Sister Socks. She also enjoyed doing arts and crafts, making jewelry, pot holders, etc...

I do not know any little girl who does not own a Barbie or Barbie clothing. Doesn't mean they are very interested in them.

 

[DeeDee249]

Well whatever JonBenet liked to play with...note that there were no Barbie Dolls in her bedroom. Her favorite was a stuffed animal...Sister Socks. She also enjoyed doing arts and crafts, making jewelry, pot holders, etc...

I do not know any little girl who does not own a Barbie or Barbie clothing. Doesn't mean they are very interested in them.

Barbie tended to be more fun when you had a friend over to play with her.

 

[Toltec]

Barbie tended to be more fun when you had a friend over to play with her.

So true DeeDee.

 

[wonderllama]

Or in the case of my 5 year old....when your Dad is doing the voices and playing with them.

*sigh*

 

[DeeDee249]

Or in the case of my 5 year old....when your Dad is doing the voices and playing with them.

*sigh*

God bless a dad who will do "Barbie voices". My niece always liked to come to our house when she was little because my husband would make her dolls "talk" when they played. She didn't like when I made them talk because sometimes I'd make them say bad things...

 

[winterhawk]

..... He had hit her twice in the past with a golf club. The parents said that was an accident. We have no way of knowing if it really was. In any event, those two incidents resulted in minor injuries to JB, stitches at an ER, not much more than that.

I had never heard this before. Actually that means a lot (to me). Of course they would say it was an accident. Can you recall the source?

 

[DeeDee249]

I had never heard this before. Actually that means a lot (to me). Of course they would say it was an accident. Can you recall the source?

This was well-known, and Patsy spoke about it too. This was a few years before JB's death. There was some discussion because Patsy wanted to wait for a plastic surgeon to be called to the hospital instead of having the ER doctor stitch the cut. I don't blame her for that actually. As long as it wasn't an emergency, I'd have done the same thing to minimize any chance of a scar.
I believe I read it various places, but one was interviews with a the housekeeper.

 

[cynic]

I had never heard this before. Actually that means a lot (to me). Of course they would say it was an accident. Can you recall the source?

JonBenét was only four years old, not yet in kindergarten, when she hit the circuit, and the judges immediately knew that the sparkling beginner in the white dress still needed a lot of work, but they said she was a natural. In the summer of 1994 JonBenét was accidentally hit on the left cheek by a golf club swung by her brother, Burke, and her mother rushed the child to see a plastic surgeon, who thought Patsy was overreacting. The doctor apparently didn’t understand the importance of an imperfection on a budding beauty queen.
JonBenet: Inside the Ramsey Murder Investigation, Steve Thomas, page 4

On October 5, 1994, when JonBenét showed up at the doctor’s office for a checkup, she had a scar on her left cheek. She’d been hit accidentally by a golf club when the family was in Charlevoix. A week later a plastic surgeon in Denver was consulted. There was no injury to her cheekbone, nothing to worry about. Beuf was told that she was getting along with her brothers and older sister.
Perfect Murder, Perfect Town, Lawrence Schiller, pages 334-335

By now the detectives had a long list of open questions, and it was growing daily. It was clear that they had to interview the Ramseys again about new developments. For example, the police had learned from a confidential informant at the hospital in Charlevoix that JonBenét had once been hit by a golf club and had required stitches and that a plastic surgeon in Denver had been consulted.
Perfect Murder, Perfect Town, Lawrence Schiller, page 563

THOMAS HANEY: Okay. There was mention while we are talking about that, there was mention of a situation where he apparently hit JonBenet with a golf club up at Charlevoix?
PATSY RAMSEY: Yes.
THOMAS HANEY: Could you tell us about that?
PATSY RAMSEY: He was taking a practice swing, he was just a little guy, he was two or three, or two and a half, and he was -- it was our first summer there, how young they
were there.
THOMAS HANEY: About what year would that have been?
PATSY RAMSEY: That was '93, I believe. And he, you know, he was out there with his little Whiffle ball, golf balls, and she walked up behind and he kind of clipped her right on the cheek. And she screamed bloody murder. And I jumped down off the porch and grabbed her and, you know, slammed ice on it. I thought he got her in the eye, and went down there to the emergency room and, you know, the doctor looked and it was just, you know, that socket around your eye, protects your eye there, so she had a good old black eye for a while. She had a little, I don't remember which eye it was, little abrasion. I took her to a plastic surgeon just to see if there was anything to do to help there. He said it will go away. You know.
THOMAS HANEY: So that was just an accidental –
PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. You know, he wasn't used to looking around and she walked right up behind him, so –
THOMAS HANEY: Okay.
Patsy Ramsey, 1998 interview

TT: Okay. What about any injuries, any major injuries, any major injuries to JonBenet?
PR: She, Burke hit her in the face with a gulf club one time, and the leg…
TT: Ay stitches or anything like that?
PR: No, it was just kind of a skin abrasion, she had a little scar, a little teensy little scar there, but it just kind of squashed the skin up and something to stitch it. She had a black eye, and…
TT: The 25th, during the day of the 25th, do you recall seeing any injuries on JonBenet? Any scratches, abrasions, cuts, bruises, or anything like that?
PR: I don’t remember, but she was always getting bruised, you know. Kids just, I don’t remember anything.
Patsy Ramsey, 1997 interview

 

[horatio]

No one scenario really explains everything...

Very true -- which is why the truth must lie somewhere in the middle. I think if one of us really did come up with the 'correct' scenario, it would probably seem far-fetched and unrealistic to others.

 

[Agatha_C]

Cynic, stop the presses!

In your above post, PR states that BR was just a little guy being between 2 and 3 years of age and that JBR walked up behind him.... Hmmmmm thinks I, how old would that have made JBR? Certainly not old enough to walk..

PR also said it was 1993, which would have made BR 6 and JBR 3.... Whats up with that? And no one questioned her on it? What the heck...... Just the discrepancies in that one little area of questioning is enough to make want to scream...

Why was she lying (badly) about the ages in this interview?