Possible Victim: Fire Island Jane Doe, UP9098, found Davis Park Apr 1996 & Ocean Parkway Apr 2011 - Karen Vergata
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Thankyou very much for your friendly welcomes, both of you!
Giagreen - yes, my understanding is that one set of remains (April 11th, Nassau County) proved to be those of the mother of the toddler discovered on April 4th, while the other set matched the DNA of the pair of legs from Fire Island. (It beggars belief, doesn't it... Somebody murdering an infant without a second thought and laying their body out on display, as well as apparently keeping half of a victim's body for 15 years... Absolutely monstrous).
My immediate assumption when I heard about the mother and infant being murdered was that the woman was probably an escort who had taken her daughter along with her on a call (perhaps lacking a babysitter and leaving her outside in the car, or something along those lines). He may have killed the daughter to avoid her identifying him. I would be interested to hear anything which you (or anyone
) might like to add to this.
I appreciate your reply very much, and thankyou again for the welcome! :seeya:
Giagreen - yes, my understanding is that one set of remains (April 11th, Nassau County) proved to be those of the mother of the toddler discovered on April 4th, while the other set matched the DNA of the pair of legs from Fire Island. (It beggars belief, doesn't it... Somebody murdering an infant without a second thought and laying their body out on display, as well as apparently keeping half of a victim's body for 15 years... Absolutely monstrous).
My immediate assumption when I heard about the mother and infant being murdered was that the woman was probably an escort who had taken her daughter along with her on a call (perhaps lacking a babysitter and leaving her outside in the car, or something along those lines). He may have killed the daughter to avoid her identifying him. I would be interested to hear anything which you (or anyone
) might like to add to this.I appreciate your reply very much, and thankyou again for the welcome! :seeya:
giagreen
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I'm with you on the toddler probably being the daughter of a prostitute. I say prostitute because I believe that those two would have been murdered before craigslist and would more then likely be a street walker.
I don't think the toddler would of been killed for the purpose of avoiding identifying him because the toddler would of been to young to even really talk. I think the toddler was killed just because she was there and he had killed her mother and had nothing els to do with the toddler but kill her. I'm sure it didn't bother him at all to kill a toddler.
I also believe that the Asian male was killed because he was a male and that the killer thought he was a female and became out raged that he was a male and that is why he was beat rather then strangled. Either way I think the plan was to kill him from the start. But, I think that the SK is a sexual sadist so if the Asian male would have been a woman he would of died from strangulation well the perp was performing sexual acts on her/him. But him being a male got him beat instead.
I also think that there is a very good chance that there are two different killers working in that same area. I have a hard time with this one because I also believe that the killer very well could of switched up his MO and also evolved. My only problem with that is the way he left the GB4. To me that says he wanted to go back and view his work. Where with the others he had no problem leaving random parts where ever. I personally believe that by leaving legs in one spot and other body parts in others were just to trip up LE if they were to find the parts.
Anyways, happy you are here because this thread has died down a ton because I think most have pretty much discussed all that there is to discuss at this point. I could talk about this for hours. I want so bad to know the truth about everything. It drives me nuts.
I don't think the toddler would of been killed for the purpose of avoiding identifying him because the toddler would of been to young to even really talk. I think the toddler was killed just because she was there and he had killed her mother and had nothing els to do with the toddler but kill her. I'm sure it didn't bother him at all to kill a toddler.
I also believe that the Asian male was killed because he was a male and that the killer thought he was a female and became out raged that he was a male and that is why he was beat rather then strangled. Either way I think the plan was to kill him from the start. But, I think that the SK is a sexual sadist so if the Asian male would have been a woman he would of died from strangulation well the perp was performing sexual acts on her/him. But him being a male got him beat instead.
I also think that there is a very good chance that there are two different killers working in that same area. I have a hard time with this one because I also believe that the killer very well could of switched up his MO and also evolved. My only problem with that is the way he left the GB4. To me that says he wanted to go back and view his work. Where with the others he had no problem leaving random parts where ever. I personally believe that by leaving legs in one spot and other body parts in others were just to trip up LE if they were to find the parts.
Anyways, happy you are here because this thread has died down a ton because I think most have pretty much discussed all that there is to discuss at this point. I could talk about this for hours. I want so bad to know the truth about everything. It drives me nuts.
Thankyou for your kind words! :seeya:
I am inclined to agree with you that the young girl was killed simply because she was there and was helpless. The only reason why I bring up the possibility of her being a witness is because I have a two-year-old nephew whose speech is quite advanced, and he can recognise people and things very quickly. He might be able to pick somebody out of a group of photographs - or he (or the little girl, in this case) might be able to identify them a few years' down the line, provided that they remembered the person's face. But, yes, I entirely agree that she was killed just because she happened to be there, and our man found himself getting an extra unexpected victim (urgh, it sickens me...).
My thoughts are the same as yours regarding the male victim - a rage killing, triggered by finding himself with a man when he had been looking for a woman. This makes me wonder if he picked this person up from the street, as opposed to Craigslist or an agency, as you would expect that an online advert would have mentioned that he was a cross-dressing male. Interesting to build up a picture of his methods, anyway!
I am inclined to agree with you that the young girl was killed simply because she was there and was helpless. The only reason why I bring up the possibility of her being a witness is because I have a two-year-old nephew whose speech is quite advanced, and he can recognise people and things very quickly. He might be able to pick somebody out of a group of photographs - or he (or the little girl, in this case) might be able to identify them a few years' down the line, provided that they remembered the person's face. But, yes, I entirely agree that she was killed just because she happened to be there, and our man found himself getting an extra unexpected victim (urgh, it sickens me...).
My thoughts are the same as yours regarding the male victim - a rage killing, triggered by finding himself with a man when he had been looking for a woman. This makes me wonder if he picked this person up from the street, as opposed to Craigslist or an agency, as you would expect that an online advert would have mentioned that he was a cross-dressing male. Interesting to build up a picture of his methods, anyway!
LINative13
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I believe the woman's legs were found on fire island, and other parts were found in manorville and OP. I'm rusty though. I have been sleuthing this since the first set of bodies were discovered and my memory is not as sharp when I was really into this case. My interest is waining but it is still there. Welcome to the thread and maybe you will add some value.
There is a very good thread that shows the relationships between all of the body parts. Do a search, and definitely read the early threads when the case was first breaking.
Have at it
There is a very good thread that shows the relationships between all of the body parts. Do a search, and definitely read the early threads when the case was first breaking.
Have at it
I have a different theory with the male victim. I believe LISK knew exactly what he was getting into with the Asian male victim. I believe he is attracted to transsexuals, as well, as women, but not men. I think he himself cross dresses from time to time, either fully or either wears bras, panties, or pantyhose/stockings I used to be a probation officer and have spoken with and thoroughly interviewed many unique individuals who were convicted of low level sex crimes, and from my experience there is a subgroup/subculture of men who are interested sexually in women, as well, as transsexuals, and cross-dressers, but not attracted to or interested in regular men. These men consider themselves to be straight. A few of these men about 20% also have an interest in cross dressing themselves to a certain extent. I truly believe LISK fits into this category. Also, I think if they should be able to find some sort of DNA with the male Asian victim, as I am sure he engaged in sexual activity with him.
LINative13
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Hahah. I bet he dances in the mirror like on silence of the lambs
I'm not convinced the skull found in Nassau that was associated with the legs were "kept" for all those years. Thinking back I don't know if they offered a guess as to how long it was there, the torso is still missing. The legs were found in a bag near Davis beach April 20, 1996, with red nail polish on her toes. I'm not sure how they determined it was female with just the legs, its easier to make that determination with the pelvis or skull. I think that DNA can be used to determine gender somehow but we're getting way over my head with that one.
That is very useful insight. Thankyou very much indeed, Mayankoza! I had never considered that possibility, but it would certainly make sense, and I will be sure to keep it "on the table", so to speak, when I am thinking about the case.
It would make such a big difference if we knew how long each body or set of remains had been there, wouldn't it? I don't recall whether LE have ever commented on this either (although I am a relative newcomer to this case, and I will need to read through all of the information a few times before details like this become fixed in my mind).
Davis Beach, April 20th - this information is new to me, and could well prove to be very useful! I'll get Googling, and see what I can find!
Many thanks to everyone who has contributed so far! :seeya:
LINative13
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Use search key. A detailed time line and the cops knew how long each girl was missing except the unidentified one.
Hello again, everyone!
I have begun to search through newspaper archives and online, aided by the information which you all helpfully posted, and have turned up some information which is certainly new to me, and which fills in a bit more of the picture regarding the Fire Island victim.
The most surprising thing to me is that the police have released a sketch of her face, based on the skull which was found. I hope that I will not be breaking any of the rules if I post the sketch here (mods, please let me know if I am, and I will be very happy to delete the image )!
Here she is - the police impression of her
This picture was apparently released to the public on December 21st 2011 - I had never seen it before yesterday, and had never even heard it mentioned that a sketch of her existed! Is this "old news" to most people who follow this case, and simply a reflection of my lack of knowledge as a newcomer? Either way, it genuinely gladdens me to know that a face has been put to her - this seems to give her back some of her human dignity, and there is now every possibility that somebody will see the sketch and recognize her. Two years is not such an incredibly long time for something like this to happen...
A few other helpful details have turned up too. Apparently the particular stretch of beach on which she was found is called Blue Point Beach. She does indeed have scars on her legs, and at least one of these scars is from surgery. On the subject of the scars, reports vary slightly - one source says that she had a 3.5" scar on each leg, and an L-shaped scar on her right shin. Source: http://z10.invisionfree.com/usedtobedoe/ar/t67909.htm ). Another source states that she had "several scars on her right leg, and a surgical scar with suture marks on her left ankle".
(The source in this case was a superb New York Times article, which you can read here: http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2...om/search/sitesearch/#/Fire+Island+legs/&_r=2) )
The first source (the "invisionfree.com" page above) also stated that the toenails on one of her feet were painted red, whereas the New York Times article says that all ten toenails were painted red. It will be very hard to clarify these facts beyond all doubt, and it may well be that we just have to accept some vagueness on these points as being the little ambiguities which always creep into attempts to establish factual records of this sort.
One question which I would like to ask all of you here - are there any medical experts amongst us who have any ideas about what might leave you with 3.5" scars on each leg? Of course, I realize that there are no end of things, both medical and accidental, which could cause such scars - but if there is anything which immediately comes to mind when you hear the words "a 3.5" scar on each leg", I would be very, very grateful indeed for your suggestions!
I will carry on the search through newspaper archives, as I have only scratched the surface as far as they are concerned, and I will let you know of anything new which may turn up!
Aleph and LR1 - very special thanks are owed to you, as your information was particularly useful in my searches. :seeya:
Be well, everyone.
I have begun to search through newspaper archives and online, aided by the information which you all helpfully posted, and have turned up some information which is certainly new to me, and which fills in a bit more of the picture regarding the Fire Island victim.
The most surprising thing to me is that the police have released a sketch of her face, based on the skull which was found. I hope that I will not be breaking any of the rules if I post the sketch here (mods, please let me know if I am, and I will be very happy to delete the image
)!Here she is - the police impression of her
This picture was apparently released to the public on December 21st 2011 - I had never seen it before yesterday, and had never even heard it mentioned that a sketch of her existed! Is this "old news" to most people who follow this case, and simply a reflection of my lack of knowledge as a newcomer? Either way, it genuinely gladdens me to know that a face has been put to her - this seems to give her back some of her human dignity, and there is now every possibility that somebody will see the sketch and recognize her. Two years is not such an incredibly long time for something like this to happen...
A few other helpful details have turned up too. Apparently the particular stretch of beach on which she was found is called Blue Point Beach. She does indeed have scars on her legs, and at least one of these scars is from surgery. On the subject of the scars, reports vary slightly - one source says that she had a 3.5" scar on each leg, and an L-shaped scar on her right shin. Source: http://z10.invisionfree.com/usedtobedoe/ar/t67909.htm ). Another source states that she had "several scars on her right leg, and a surgical scar with suture marks on her left ankle".
(The source in this case was a superb New York Times article, which you can read here: http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2...om/search/sitesearch/#/Fire+Island+legs/&_r=2) )
The first source (the "invisionfree.com" page above) also stated that the toenails on one of her feet were painted red, whereas the New York Times article says that all ten toenails were painted red. It will be very hard to clarify these facts beyond all doubt, and it may well be that we just have to accept some vagueness on these points as being the little ambiguities which always creep into attempts to establish factual records of this sort.
One question which I would like to ask all of you here - are there any medical experts amongst us who have any ideas about what might leave you with 3.5" scars on each leg? Of course, I realize that there are no end of things, both medical and accidental, which could cause such scars - but if there is anything which immediately comes to mind when you hear the words "a 3.5" scar on each leg", I would be very, very grateful indeed for your suggestions!
I will carry on the search through newspaper archives, as I have only scratched the surface as far as they are concerned, and I will let you know of anything new which may turn up!
Aleph and LR1 - very special thanks are owed to you, as your information was particularly useful in my searches. :seeya:
Be well, everyone.
A very quick update - the seven-part video series of interviews which Mayankoza posted in another thread recently have yielded another couple of facts; namely that the victim's legs were actually found floating in the sea, wrapped in a plastic bag of some kind, and that they were spotted by a man and a woman who were walking on the beach.
These may be quite minor points, but every fact which we can gather and record is important! You never know when one seemingly trivial piece of information will connect with another, and somebody will connect the dots and lead us to our man.
These may be quite minor points, but every fact which we can gather and record is important! You never know when one seemingly trivial piece of information will connect with another, and somebody will connect the dots and lead us to our man.
Aslan you might have already found this but here's a thread for this this victim where we discussed the scars and the different procedures that might have caused them and her case in general.
[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=160935"]http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=160935[/ame]
[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=160935"]http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=160935[/ame]
Wow, thankyou so much, LR1! There is a wealth of information and possible leads there, and I will spend the next few days reading through all of it and making notes. There is plenty of information there, and I am sure that some of the avenues of exploration could still yield a bit if we pressed on.
I will get reading, get writing, and then get asking! Many thanks to you, and to all of the good people here at Websleuths who are so generous with their time and their knowledge! :seeya:
I will get reading, get writing, and then get asking! Many thanks to you, and to all of the good people here at Websleuths who are so generous with their time and their knowledge! :seeya:
LindsayLohan6
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An interesting angle the TS killer. Fluke once maid reference to a local crossdresser who lived in Oak Beach. Then you also have Cherri Bombs owned by an Oak Beach resident and from what i remember reading cherri bombs had transexuals working there and maybe even a tranny night...
LindsayLohan6
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I actually thought this made Joe Brewer look very suspicious to me...he claimed he thought shannan was a transsexual. He's trying to taunt and humiliate a victim who died after he called her out to his home.
Yes!
I can't tell if he is a bog standard creepy john or the perp himself hiding in plain sight.
We had some current and former escorts/sex workers following the board as of a little while back. I'd be curious as to their opinions about JB. Is this what some of the johns are just like, or is JB an outlier? It's been reported that his house smelled like pee and was full of trash. Is that also the norm?
I realize that it's a long trip from strange person with messy house to SERIAL KILLER but sheesh.