Possible Victim: Shannan Gilbert #2

[White_Rabbit]

Regarding the case Gilbert, Shannan, Estate of, vs. Hacket, Charles Peter, D.O., the following documents were electronically filed by Attorney John Ray on October 20, 2022:

Notice of Motion

Affidavit or Affirmation in Support of Motion

Exhibit(s)

 

[Sleuth_Noob]

Dr Hackett did not walk over a quarter of a mile with a body and a prosthetic leg.

Of course not…I don’t think that anyone is even remotely hypothesizing that, though. But the fact remains that he did telephone SG’s mother while she was missing and allegedly made bizarre remarks about how he ran a ‘home for wayward girls’, and that he had seen her the night she went missing.

 

[giagreen]

I think that's a very good point. Unless we ourselves have had an injury like that, it is hard to say what we would be able to do/not do. I think it's far to easy to rule someone out on the basis of having prosthesis, maybe just thinking that the terrain would not be easy with a prosthetic limb, or someone might get stuck, etc. etc. There are quite a few people in this world with life-changing injuries, who manage to effectively compensate, learn new ways of doing things, and have some sort of prosthesis. This ability to adapt runs the gamut from activities of daily living, all the way to Paralympics, for some. IMO certain health issues should not rule someone out, by bias, unconscious or not. Same thing with heart, pacemaker, defib device. It always bothered me that CPH made a great show of pain/discomfort to avoid questions/deflect. My aunt had one. It didn't hurt. And I know someone with a prosthetic leg who could get around just fine. All MOO.

It actually horrified me watching Hackett fake all that to avoid any questions. It was so cringe worthy. Any logical person would feel completely stupid putting on a show like that and all it did for me was raise more questions.

 

[giagreen]

Another random thought here.
But what do others think of the idea that maybe SG seen something that night that was worthy of her reaction but maybe Pak and Brewer did not know or realize?
Could she have maybe seen someone lurking outside and was confused thinking they were all in on it?
Maybe could she have been being stalked and received a text that was threatening and taunting her location or something?

 

[Sleuth_Noob]

Another random thought here.
But what do others think of the idea that maybe SG seen something that night that was worthy of her reaction but maybe Pak and Brewer did not know or realize?
Could she have maybe seen someone lurking outside and was confused thinking they were all in on it?
Maybe could she have been being stalked and received a text that was threatening and taunting her location or something?

It’s definitely possible that she saw or heard something that spooked her…anything is possible, really. The 911 recordings clearly illustrate that her mental state was not entirely sound. At times she sounds anxious and scared, other times incoherent. She repeats certain phrases over and over, but they are vague and ambiguous. She is also at times completely unresponsive to 911 operators very basic questions…
But that being said, it is the search for SG that ultimately leads to the discovery of all of the victims’ bodies. That’s no coincidence IMO. SG’s case is related to the others in that regard.

 

[giagreen]

It’s definitely possible that she saw or heard something that spooked her…anything is possible, really. The 911 recordings clearly illustrate that her mental state was not entirely sound. At times she sounds anxious and scared, other times incoherent. She repeats certain phrases over and over, but they are vague and ambiguous. She is also at times completely unresponsive to 911 operators very basic questions…
But that being said, it is the search for SG that ultimately leads to the discovery of all of the victims’ bodies. That’s no coincidence IMO. SG’s case is related to the others in that regard.

Yeah it's just too coincidental. I've tried to believe it was an accident. It really could of been. But man it sure is strange the search for her lead to the discovery of others who were like her in many ways.
I was listening to that lisk pod cast. Dave was speaking about Amber. He said she said "I'll just use his phone". I want to know if that's exactly what she said or if he was giving an example. Because if she was just going to use his phone then for what? Why would she need to use a John's phone? Which got me to thinking could it have been a driver for a John? Idk my thoughts change on this daily. Lol

 

[WINDSOR]

Dr Hackett did not walk over a quarter of a mile with a body and a prosthetic leg.

Why are we automatically assuming that Dr. Hackett moved or placed the body? Could he not have an assistant?

 

[WINDSOR]

Another random thought here.
But what do others think of the idea that maybe SG seen something that night that was worthy of her reaction but maybe Pak and Brewer did not know or realize?
Could she have maybe seen someone lurking outside and was confused thinking they were all in on it?
Maybe could she have been being stalked and received a text that was threatening and taunting her location or something?

What ever 'spooked' SG apears to have occurred in Brewer's house, that is where she made the 911 call initially.

 

[Sleuth_Noob]

Yeah it's just too coincidental. I've tried to believe it was an accident. It really could of been. But man it sure is strange the search for her lead to the discovery of others who were like her in many ways.
I was listening to that lisk pod cast. Dave was speaking about Amber. He said she said "I'll just use his phone". I want to know if that's exactly what she said or if he was giving an example. Because if she was just going to use his phone then for what? Why would she need to use a John's phone? Which got me to thinking could it have been a driver for a John? Idk my thoughts change on this daily. Lol

I know what you mean…

But it is reasonable to assume that the killer had courted his victims on numerous occasions, thereby establishing trust, prior to killing them. And that the killer lives in or around Oak Beach, which is also the dumping ground for bodies (Ocean Pkway). SG could have been in the ‘courting’ stage, in the same manner that the other victims had previously been…

 

[giagreen]

What ever 'spooked' SG apears to have occurred in Brewer's house, that is where she made the 911 call initially.

Yes but for whatever reason she was afraid to go outside of the house.

 

[Sleuth_Noob]

Yes but for whatever reason she was afraid to go outside of the house.

Her erratic behavior and lack of ability to clearly communicate w. 911 operator illustrate mental impairment of some form. Considering that she was for the most part not responsive to 911 operators very basic questions, and repeated phrases over and over, specifically her name and that ‘they’ were trying to kill her, it’s impossible to know what—if anything—spooked her into calling 911 in the first place.

She clearly had some type of manic or psychotic episode which caused her to fear for her life. Whether or not there was a legitimate reason for her to fear for her safety is debatable. She could have seen or heard something that was legitimate cause for her to be alarmed, and that triggered the manic/psychotic break. Or it could have been drug induced…Or any combination of things.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

Her erratic behavior and lack of ability to clearly communicate w. 911 operator illustrate mental impairment of some form. Considering that she was for the most part not responsive to 911 operators very basic questions, and repeated phrases over and over, specifically her name and that ‘they’ were trying to kill her, it’s impossible to know what—if anything—spooked her into calling 911 in the first place.

She clearly had some type of manic or psychotic episode which caused her to fear for her life. Whether or not there was a legitimate reason for her to fear for her safety is debatable. She could have seen or heard something that was legitimate cause for her to be alarmed, and that triggered the manic/psychotic break. Or it could have been drug induced…Or any combination of things.

If she had a legitimate reason to fear for her life, there's no reason to believe she was manic or psychotic. Even if the reason she feared for her life isn't reasonable to us, it might have been to her. I'm just getting into this case. So is there some other reason to believe she was manic or psychotic or that her fear was drug-induced?

 

[Sleuth_Noob]

If she had a legitimate reason to fear for her life, there's no reason to believe she was manic or psychotic. Even if the reason she feared for her life isn't reasonable to us, it might have been to her. I'm just getting into this case. So is there some other reason to believe she was manic or psychotic or that her fear was drug-induced?

Yes. She apparently suffered from bi-polar disorder for which she had been taking prescription medication to aid in treatment for. There is also a theory that she and Brewer may have visited someone in the area earlier that night to obtain (illegal) drugs from.

 

[WINDSOR]

If she had a legitimate reason to fear for her life, there's no reason to believe she was manic or psychotic. Even if the reason she feared for her life isn't reasonable to us, it might have been to her. I'm just getting into this case. So is there some other reason to believe she was manic or psychotic or that her fear was drug-induced?

A number of posters believe that Shannan had "some type of manic or psychotic episode" based on her incoherence and confusion on the 911 call. Having listened to different 911 calls over the years, a great many 911 calls are like that. The required skill of the phone responder is try to calm the caller.

Linking Shannan's Bi-Polar disorder to her confusing 911 call maybe pertinent, but then again it may not be. A great number of people with mental health issues behave logically and coherently in times of stress. On the other hand, under great duress, all of us can act unexpectedly.

Historically with female victims, there has been a tendency to present the situation( especially by Law Enforcement) where the 'female' intrinsically was a contributing factor to her demise.

Examples,
'She was hysterical, and that lead to her demise.'
'What can you expect when she was dressed that way'
'She became disoriented and walked into the marsh'
'She was a sex worker, many end up dead'

 

[da fino]

i've been away a few years and haven't kept up. but a couple quick important questions for me:

what caused shannan, a person engaged in illegal sex work and under the influence of illegal drugs, to call 911 in order summon law enforcement? presumably something worse than any consequences of those things.

what caused hackett to call shannan's mother with some unusual and untrue, or at best partially true scenario story? presumably to explain any connection that might be made between he and shannan at a later time, which suggests he had some knowledge of what did happen to shannan prior to the call.

and let's not forget that bi-polar disorder is characterized by having elevated mood swings, from manic to depressive and vice versa. its not schizophrenia or multiple personality disorder, which can manifest in hallucinations and delusional interpretations of reality.

 

[Sleuth_Noob]

A number of posters believe that Shannan had "some type of manic or psychotic episode" based on her incoherence and confusion on the 911 call. Having listened to different 911 calls over the years, a great many 911 calls are like that. The required skill of the phone responder is try to calm the caller.

Linking Shannan's Bi-Polar disorder to her confusing 911 call maybe pertinent, but then again it may not be. A great number of people with mental health issues behave logically and coherently in times of stress. On the other hand, under great duress, all of us can act unexpectedly.

Historically with female victims, there has been a tendency to present the situation( especially by Law Enforcement) where the 'female' intrinsically was a contributing factor to her demise.

Examples,
'She was hysterical, and that lead to her demise.'
'What can you expect when she was dressed that way'
'She became disoriented and walked into the marsh'
'She was a sex worker, many end up dead'

I agree. My point is that there is no way for us to definitively know the reason for her calling 911. If her perception was that either Brewer or Pak were the ‘they’ that she referred to, there is zero evidence to support that based on 911 call. In fact, when putting her comments to 911 operator in context of the background audio (w. Brewer and Pak), it sounds like Brewer just wants her out of there and she won’t budge; and Pak can be heard very calmly trying to coax her out of the house to his car, saying ‘ok, let’s just go home’, and she wants no part of that either.

The truth is we don’t know what happened in the house, but when she is free and clear of both of them and encounters Colletti, she does the same thing w. him, and wants no part of waiting for the police—who she has already called, and still is on phone w. (via 911 emergency).

 

[wcasewatch]

Shannan had stopped taking her medication because it made her feel "shakey". She was clearly not in the right frame of mind. One minute, she believes that Brewer is out to get her, the next minute she is refusing to leave his house. Anyone who listens to that 911 tape and thinks that she was thinking clearly should just hand their websleuth badge in.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

Shannan had stopped taking her medication because it made her feel "shakey". She was clearly not in the right frame of mind. One minute, she believes that Brewer is out to get her, the next minute she is refusing to leave his house. Anyone who listens to that 911 tape and thinks that she was thinking clearly should just hand their websleuth badge in.

Well, I do this for a living and I am around 85-95% positive she wasn't manic or psychotic just based on the 911 tape. This does not sound like a young woman in a mental health crisis. This sounds like a young woman who is frightened and possibly drugged.

Do we know if she was drugged? It's clear she felt her life was in danger. A decent man would leave a woman alone, as she requested, when he realizes he's scaring her. She asks them to stop multiple times and her pleas fall on deaf ears and he escalates the situation, further agitating her.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

i've been away a few years and haven't kept up. but a couple quick important questions for me:

what caused shannan, a person engaged in illegal sex work and under the influence of illegal drugs, to call 911 in order summon law enforcement? presumably something worse than any consequences of those things.

what caused hackett to call shannan's mother with some unusual and untrue, or at best partially true scenario story? presumably to explain any connection that might be made between he and shannan at a later time, which suggests he had some knowledge of what did happen to shannan prior to the call.

and let's not forget that bi-polar disorder is characterized by having elevated mood swings, from manic to depressive and vice versa. its not schizophrenia or multiple personality disorder, which can manifest in hallucinations and delusional interpretations of reality.

In fairness, people with bipolar disorder can also experience psychotic symptoms. If they experience those symptoms only in the context of a bipolar decompensation, it's called bipolar disorder with psychotic features. If they experience psychosis, even without a bipolar decompensation, it's called schizoaffective disorder (bipolar subtype).

BUT that isn't what happened here. This last sentence is MOO, based on the 911 tape and what I've read thus far. Still catching up on this case.

 

[giagreen]

I agree. My point is that there is no way for us to definitively know the reason for her calling 911. If her perception was that either Brewer or Pak were the ‘they’ that she referred to, there is zero evidence to support that based on 911 call. In fact, when putting her comments to 911 operator in context of the background audio (w. Brewer and Pak), it sounds like Brewer just wants her out of there and she won’t budge; and Pak can be heard very calmly trying to coax her out of the house to his car, saying ‘ok, let’s just go home’, and she wants no part of that either.

The truth is we don’t know what happened in the house, but when she is free and clear of both of them and encounters Colletti, she does the same thing w. him, and wants no part of waiting for the police—who she has already called, and still is on phone w. (via 911 emergency).

I personally don't believe Colletti invited her inside. Or offered a whole lot of help other than calling the police. But that's just a matter of opinion I suppose.
She ran and hide behind a boat as Pak was approaching. So even at Colletti house she not only still had enough fear to keep running from Pak but also had enough sense to see headlights and to go run and hide. I don't believe she ever ran from Colletti because he called the police. She new Pak was coming after her and from the sounds of it he was right behind her.