Possible Victim: Shannan Gilbert, 24, missing May 2010, found Oak Beach Dec 2011 #3

[Ruminations]

I don't feel totally confident in things J Ray has been saying for a few months but he has attempted to keep SG's case in the public eye, and has, of course, kept things moving in court.

jmo

I am mostly encouraged by recent developments. I can't think of a single thing Ray has said that has been untrue. I'm not sure how it has come to pass that he is mistrusted. But your skepticism -while I don't feel it- is certainly not unique.

One thing that makes me very hyped is Commissioner Harrison encouraging tips, including through John Ray or any non traditional route if not calling LE directly. It coukd be that a number of tipsters who were ignored under Burke will ONLY use other routes. And there is reason to believe tips were not used or welcome. LE seemed to ignore, lie about, and lose evidence in the past.

Tierney's statements took my joy down a notch, however. It's ridiculous and arrogant to expect all people to trust LE in this circumstance. Basically, he was saying he would rather not get info than have it come through John Ray. The appropriate thing to say would be that he understands skepticism because of the pre-task force investigation, but he knows the whole task force is determined to earn public trust. He hopes witnesses call the tip line. But if SC has not earned back your trust yet, there are other options.

MOO

 

[fred&edna]

I am mostly encouraged by recent developments. I can't think of a single thing Ray has said that has been untrue. I'm not sure how it has come to pass that he is mistrusted. But your skepticism -while I don't feel it- is certainly not unique.

One thing that makes me very hyped is Commissioner Harrison encouraging tips, including through John Ray or any non traditional route if not calling LE directly. It coukd be that a number of tipsters who were ignored under Burke will ONLY use other routes. And there is reason to believe tips were not used or welcome. LE seemed to ignore, lie about, and lose evidence in the past.

Tierney's statements took my joy down a notch, however. It's ridiculous and arrogant to expect all people to trust LE in this circumstance. Basically, he was saying he would rather not get info than have it come through John Ray. The appropriate thing to say would be that he understands skepticism because of the pre-task force investigation, but he knows the whole task force is determined to earn public trust. He hopes witnesses call the tip line. But if SC has not earned back your trust yet, there are other options.

MOO

Don't get me wrong... I didn't accuse J Ray of lying, and I still appreciate all the work he's done (and continues to do). I just haven't felt confident in some of the things he's shared recently. I would love for corroborating evidence to be found related to the info in statements and affidavits of those who have come forward. I do support Commissioner Harrison and I was glad to see him working with John Ray.

 

[Betty P]

Don't get me wrong... I didn't accuse J Ray of lying, and I still appreciate all the work he's done (and continues to do). I just haven't felt confident in some of the things he's shared recently. I would love for corroborating evidence to be found related to the info in statements and affidavits of those who have come forward. I do support Commissioner Harrison and I was glad to see him working with John Ray.

Well, the encouraging part is that everything John Ray's witnesses have said can be verified by LE. They can check old records, interview people, etc.

Also, detectives met with the swinger witness along with John Ray. Harrison met with the cabbie, too.

Was Karen Vergata Last Seen at the Alleged Gilgo Beach Serial Killer’s House?

A new witness believes that she last saw Karen Vergata, who was recently identified as Fire Island Jane Doe, at the Massapequa Park home of Gilgo Beach serial killer suspect Rex Heuermann.

www.longislandpress.com

"The other two witnesses Ray said he heard from have not signed affidavits, but one alleged that she believes a man fitting Heuermann’s description pointed a gun at her in Queens. The other alleged that Heuermann sometimes hired more than one sex worker at a time, even while his wife was home, and that his wife accused them of stealing an iron. Heuermann’s attorney could not immediately be reached for comment on the information Ray shared.

"Harrison said that he personally met with the cabbie and Ray said detectives met with the swinger at the same time as him. Suffolk County District Attorney Ray Tierney issued a statement shortly after the news conference clarifying that private attorneys are not a part of the task force investigating the Gilgo Beach murders."

 

[Tantammy6614]

Just a theory- but Starting to wonder if Rex, Burke, and brewer knew ea other from swingers community and Shannon Gilbert was running from all of them which is why she said “ theyre trying to kill me “ on her 911 call. Wondering if there is a ring where even dr Hackett maybe involved. And Jray is underestimated and he’s starting to show everyone that

 

[Betty P]

Just a theory- but Starting to wonder if Rex, Burke, and brewer knew ea other from swingers community and Shannon Gilbert was running from all of them which is why she said “ theyre trying to kill me “ on her 911 call. Wondering if there is a ring where even dr Hackett maybe involved. And Jray is underestimated and he’s starting to show everyone that

Not just those guys, but Hackett, too, possibly others.

That was my impress from the start - that Shan was brought to a party of several men, some of whom she knew to be dangerous. By the time police got there, the others had left. We shouldn’t believe anything Pak or Brewer said. JMO

 

[dotr]

Just a theory- but Starting to wonder if Rex, Burke, and brewer knew ea other from swingers community and Shannon Gilbert was running from all of them which is why she said “ theyre trying to kill me “ on her 911 call. Wondering if there is a ring where even dr Hackett maybe involved. And Jray is underestimated and he’s starting to show everyone that

Getting (shabbier/sleazier) "Eyes Wide Shut" film vibes from the whole scene, all of it, imo, speculation.

Eyes Wide Shut - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[sds71]

Happy 37th Birthday

https://twitter.com/x/status/1716856680275751039

 

[Ruminations]

Shortly after 5:20, detective Varrone recalls Brewer contacted Shannan "...through her driver..."

"Her driver is kind of the go-between."

MOO

Especially @white rabbit since I owe them a reference.

This interview is early, and this detective asserts clearly that Pak and Brewer arranged bringing shannan to Oak Beach.

 

[Betty P]

On This Day: Three Victims Found On Gilgo Beach

In December of 2010, Suffolk County police made a sobering discovery while searching for a woman who went missing on Oak Beach – there was a serial killer lurking on Long Island.

www.longislandpress.com

 

[dotr]

'Premiered Jan 19, 2024 #nyc #breakingnews #news
CHAPTER 5: FINDING SHANNANAfter a year and a half of searching, investigators find Shannan Gilbert.Nineteen months after she vanished, Suffolk County Police found the skeletal remains of Shannan Gilbert on Gilgo Beach."What was the ultimate stunner in all of this is that they believed -- and still do believe -- that Shannan Gilbert was not murdered. That Shannan Gilbert died in an accidental drowning," recalled Einiger."Shannan's death is controversial in this entire story. The police department stands firmly behind the fact that they have done all of their investigative work and that they believe she died of an accidental drowning. And they are going to maintain that," said Kristin Thorne.A few years later, Shannan Gilbert's mother, Mari Gilbert, who is credited for the discovery of the Gilgo bodies because of how she pushed for her daughter's search, is found stabbed to death in her apartment.Mari Gilbert was 52 years old. Her daughter, Sarra Elizabeth Gilbert, was charged with her death.Watch our series 'Eyewitness to Gilgo Beach' and the story of the serial killings investigation on Long Island, NY, and the arrest of Rex Heuermann.'

 

[snooptroop88]

John Ray's cab driver witness (re: Shannan's encounter with RH) noted Shannan thought she'd received money from him to help her, but it was all white paper. We also know Amber had the "ruse" trying to get money from RH. We also know MBB was desperate for money, so desperate she stayed behind in NY to try to make up her shortfall. So that's three of the victims with clear and pressing needs for money, two of whom had made it clear to RH how dire the need was, and another that likely did so as well, in a more pointed and direct way. I have a feeling money is a huge trigger for RH, and that any of the sex workers he was involved with would be at risk if s/he made money "an issue" of any kind. Meaning they'd be walking on eggshells where the money was concerned. It's a hot point for him. Maybe it in his mind emphasized his clear need to pay for sex and he viewed it as some kind of insult. He may have interpreted it as degradation because of his unattractiveness. JMO, but RH would definitely not be with many (if any) of the partners he had without the money involved, and he perhaps would not want that idea of money dwelled on in any way. I know Melissa B. was pretty outspoken, and I don't know if money might have triggered him in her case as well, but something clearly did.

He clearly didn't murder every sex worker he was involved with. He had too many encounters with sex workers for that to be possible. So some escaped him unscathed. And I also don't believe he "only" killed sex workers. So that means some non-sex workers did not escape unscathed. It would be interesting to know what creates that divide in his head, how he decides who he is going to execute versus who he will "tolerate," since he has to be a misogynist. It's not just money, but I think money's part of the formula. And opportunity as well. Probably more than anything, he's looking for the kill he's most likely to walk away from unscathed himself. But there have to be other factors, and just wondering what those would be.

And when I post, I do refer to Shannan as a victim because I am positive Shannan was murdered by RH. Girls' jeans don't just like fly off in thickets when they die "just 'cuz"... First it was drowning, I'm not sure what that's been replaced by. Has it been clearly articulated? I also see a clear resemblance between Judith Ramona Veloz (now on the Gilgo site) and Shannan.

Not buying it.

 

[Betty P]

John Ray's cab driver witness (re: Shannan's encounter with RH) noted Shannan thought she'd received money from him to help her, but it was all white paper. We also know Amber had the "ruse" trying to get money from RH. We also know MBB was desperate for money, so desperate she stayed behind in NY to try to make up her shortfall. So that's three of the victims with clear and pressing needs for money, two of whom had made it clear to RH how dire the need was, and another that likely did so as well, in a more pointed and direct way. I have a feeling money is a huge trigger for RH, and that any of the sex workers he was involved with would be at risk if s/he made money "an issue" of any kind. Meaning they'd be walking on eggshells where the money was concerned. It's a hot point for him. Maybe it in his mind emphasized his clear need to pay for sex and he viewed it as some kind of insult. He may have interpreted it as degradation because of his unattractiveness. JMO, but RH would definitely not be with many (if any) of the partners he had without the money involved, and he perhaps would not want that idea of money dwelled on in any way. I know Melissa B. was pretty outspoken, and I don't know if money might have triggered him in her case as well, but something clearly did.

He clearly didn't murder every sex worker he was involved with. He had too many encounters with sex workers for that to be possible. So some escaped him unscathed. And I also don't believe he "only" killed sex workers. So that means some non-sex workers did not escape unscathed. It would be interesting to know what creates that divide in his head, how he decides who he is going to execute versus who he will "tolerate," since he has to be a misogynist. It's not just money, but I think money's part of the formula. And opportunity as well. Probably more than anything, he's looking for the kill he's most likely to walk away from unscathed himself. But there have to be other factors, and just wondering what those would be.

And when I post, I do refer to Shannan as a victim because I am positive Shannan was murdered by RH. Girls' jeans don't just like fly off in thickets when they die "just 'cuz"... First it was drowning, I'm not sure what that's been replaced by. Has it been clearly articulated? I also see a clear resemblance between Judith Ramona Veloz (now on the Gilgo site) and Shannan.

Not buying it.

Good points. Being desperate for money may have also signaled to Rex H that the women would be more willing to take risks, like leaving their cell phone behind.

 

[Ruminations]

John Ray's cab driver witness (re: Shannan's encounter with RH) noted Shannan thought she'd received money from him to help her, but it was all white paper. We also know Amber had the "ruse" trying to get money from RH. We also know MBB was desperate for money, so desperate she stayed behind in NY to try to make up her shortfall. So that's three of the victims with clear and pressing needs for money, two of whom had made it clear to RH how dire the need was, and another that likely did so as well, in a more pointed and direct way. I have a feeling money is a huge trigger for RH, and that any of the sex workers he was involved with would be at risk if s/he made money "an issue" of any kind. Meaning they'd be walking on eggshells where the money was concerned. It's a hot point for him. Maybe it in his mind emphasized his clear need to pay for sex and he viewed it as some kind of insult. He may have interpreted it as degradation because of his unattractiveness. JMO, but RH would definitely not be with many (if any) of the partners he had without the money involved, and he perhaps would not want that idea of money dwelled on in any way. I know Melissa B. was pretty outspoken, and I don't know if money might have triggered him in her case as well, but something clearly did.

He clearly didn't murder every sex worker he was involved with. He had too many encounters with sex workers for that to be possible. So some escaped him unscathed. And I also don't believe he "only" killed sex workers. So that means some non-sex workers did not escape unscathed. It would be interesting to know what creates that divide in his head, how he decides who he is going to execute versus who he will "tolerate," since he has to be a misogynist. It's not just money, but I think money's part of the formula. And opportunity as well. Probably more than anything, he's looking for the kill he's most likely to walk away from unscathed himself. But there have to be other factors, and just wondering what those would be.

And when I post, I do refer to Shannan as a victim because I am positive Shannan was murdered by RH. Girls' jeans don't just like fly off in thickets when they die "just 'cuz"... First it was drowning, I'm not sure what that's been replaced by. Has it been clearly articulated? I also see a clear resemblance between Judith Ramona Veloz (now on the Gilgo site) and Shannan.

Not buying it.

Interesting thoughts.

I don't think the facts can possibly be twisted to form any theory outside of Shannan's death being caused by others. But people do, and when they do they achieve this by saying their was something about Shannan's personality, work, mental illness or substance use- or combination of more than one of these caused her death.

That simply does not make sense. There is no personality, no line of work, no degree of mental illness, and no substance that can make a person immune to being murdered or tortured. Some can make a person MORE vulnerable. And thus make murder or torture more likely.

I used to believe Shannan was connected to the GB4 long before Rex was arrested. By the time he was arrested, I had changed my mind, thinking the only connection was loose- regarding common reasons for LE to be disinclined to solve the cases. Now, I'm beginning to think the connection is much tighter again.

Somebody alive knows. The truth will come out.


moo

 

[WINDSOR]

I believe Joseph Brewer was a long time resident of Suffolk County area. Since he was a participant in sex-party culture, in the area. I wonder if he crossed paths with RH or was aware of RH previously?

Had Brewer 'dated' any of RH's victims?

Had Michael Pak ever met RH?

 

[snooptroop88]

I believe Joseph Brewer was a long time resident of Suffolk County area. Since he was a participant in sex-party culture, in the area. I wonder if he crossed paths with RH or was aware of RH previously?

Had Brewer 'dated' any of RH's victims?

Had Michael Pak ever met RH?

Also wondering about RH & Brewer. He was a financial advisor, right? Brewer. Financial advisors spend a ton of their time networking with anyone they've known since like kindergarten trying to find clients with money to invest, and they're always contacting people in their areas/neighborhoods trying to get money. If they don't know them personally, they'll even cold call. Also, there's something right near where Brewer lived at the time, out in Oak Beach, called "cars+coffee" where people congregate I think like crack of dawn, like a classic car meet. This happens on Sunday mornings, and it goes on in all kinds of weather. And the "OBI" cars+coffee location is like two minutes from Brewer's OB house. I tried to figure out if it happens "every" Sunday, I can't really tell, but I do think so. Can't find enough on it.

 

[Betty P]

Interesting thoughts.

I don't think the facts can possibly be twisted to form any theory outside of Shannan's death being caused by others. But people do, and when they do they achieve this by saying their was something about Shannan's personality, work, mental illness or substance use- or combination of more than one of these caused her death.

That simply does not make sense. There is no personality, no line of work, no degree of mental illness, and no substance that can make a person immune to being murdered or tortured. Some can make a person MORE vulnerable. And thus make murder or torture more likely.

I used to believe Shannan was connected to the GB4 long before Rex was arrested. By the time he was arrested, I had changed my mind, thinking the only connection was loose- regarding common reasons for LE to be disinclined to solve the cases. Now, I'm beginning to think the connection is much tighter again.

Somebody alive knows. The truth will come out.


moo

Agree, it doesn’t make sense that all those bodies of sex workers found along Gilgo and Oak Beach were victims of a serial killer, except the one located on the opposite side of Ocean Parkway was an accident.

 

[PreciousDust]

I have a feeling money is a huge trigger for RH, and that any of the sex workers he was involved with would be at risk if s/he made money "an issue" of any kind. Meaning they'd be walking on eggshells where the money was concerned. It's a hot point for him.

Good theory, imo, very credible.

He was a financial advisor, right? Brewer.

Not one who made any money doing it, lots of people have very short "careers" in that industry by getting hired and then getting shown the door after a year or so of not producing. From my observations of his FINRA record (when it was still posted, it falls off after 10 years of being unlicensed), that was likely the case with him.

 

[Betty P]

Good theory, imo, very credible.



Not one who made any money doing it, lots of people have very short "careers" in that industry by getting hired and then getting shown the door after a year or so of not producing. From my observations of his FINRA record (when it was still posted, it falls off after 10 years of being unlicensed), that was likely the case with him.

LE can easily investigate the two of them to find any connections in the past. Have they? Will they? If not, why not?

 

[snooptroop88]

I have to go through and watch that again to fully digest it, but did anyone else get from this that there's a tie-in between RH and Burke? I may be mistaken because the audio was at points in and out. Definitely got that RH is violent (understatement) with a woman, and offers drugs.

I'm still trying to figure out the timeline on after Shannan would have been on Barbara Brennan's porch. I think it would have been just cracks of light out around that time if she bolted from the home almost immediately. I don't know that this is the "sunny dawn" point Pak mentioned (says he was there till "sunny dawn"). I know the weather was very fine that day, it moved into the 80s, I believe. But sunrise is more "sunny," there's nothing that "sunny" about this time frame. There's certainly enough light where a young woman didn't "run into" a marsh by "accident" and then couldn't maneuver her way out because it was "so dark." It was probably still dark enough to provide cover for someone that had been stalking her to find a patch of darkness in which to grab her, though.

As for the cold & hypothermia, the weather was very, very warm that day. And regardless of how cold that particular area might become, if these reeds are as tall and abundant as the images provided would suggest, then the reeds had to do quite a bit to block any wind.

 

[madamx]

Does anyone have any feedback on john rays symposium? I watched. I watched it for about an hour but the sound quality was pretty bad and whoever shot the video could of gotten in closer. I was really looking forward to it also.