Possible Victim: Shannan Gilbert, 24, missing May 2010, found Oak Beach Dec 2011 #3

[wcasewatch]

All MOO. Agreed on this idea that nobody can currently disprove it, but it may ultimately be disproven nonetheless if it is not the reality of what happened to SG. I used to buy the hypothermia theory as well. But that thicket she supposedly "ran into" is so savage, sharp, and thick, it would be an actually painful exercise (if not impossible) to venture into that for a girl that size in her attire. It is so savage, sharp, and thick that someone with a badge and a title actually advanced the idea (into MSM) that it pulled off her jeans. That's not even cocaine territory, that is PCP territory. And PCP wouldn't produce several mentions of "someone" after her. That is a little too reality-based for the PCP territory that would have supposedly driven her into the thicket. "Someone" after her implies someone not in her presence at that time, but someone she is aware of, maybe "John Springfield," and she knows she does not have his real name. There are alternative theories here that are to me much more plausible than "unknown natural causes." More like a now suspected, highly unnatural cause already in custody and awaiting trial. If not him, someone similar to him. I don't trust the Suffolk County Police Psychic that noted she'd drowned before the body was even located. I'm reading "Lost Girls" now, and I would note this former police commissioner's comment made when the bodies were being unearthed on Ocean Parkway: “I don’t want anyone to think we have a Jack the Ripper running around Suffolk County with blood dripping from a knife."

That's a real relief. Thanks for letting us know.

That marsh has trenches. She didn't have to run through the thicket. Besides, she was fearing for her life, regardless of whether those fears were realistic or not. If she was going through an episode, she may have gone much further than you or I.

 

[Ruminations]

I didn't find her to be coherent at all. The FBI hired a psychiatrist who reviewed the call and agreed as much.

I think there are a lot of people who are emotionally invested in the idea that Shannan was a LISK victim and that Oak Beach was the epicenter of the case. Doctors and wealthy groups of people are more "exciting" than a lone predator.

The fact is, none of us were there. Nobody here can discount or disprove the hypothermia theory.

We were not there. We heard the 911 call. She was coherent.

Brewer was there. He tried to lure Shannan out of his house. Then she ran off, and he....went to bed?

Pak was there. He was following her on his car. Coletti says he called 911. Then Pak goes home?

Coletti was there. He thought she was 14. He called 911. He says he waited for a response...the police eventually came. The "14" year old is no where to be found. Coletti, who lives right next to the gate, didn't mention Pak leaving. He goes on with his day?

PH is supposedly sleeping but calls Mari soon afterwards to talk about his interactions with her?

Nobody is around to say to the police, she went that way, towards the reeds? Nobody calls to her?

The timelines of the people around Shannan don't make sense. With all those people awake, there was no way Shannan ran into the marsh and died without help dying.

MOO

 

[snooptroop88]

That marsh has trenches. She didn't have to run through the thicket. Besides, she was fearing for her life, regardless of whether those fears were realistic or not. If she was going through an episode, she may have gone much further than you or I.

She would have to run through enough of it to reach the trenches that her pants could supposedly have been pulled off by it.

 

[snooptroop88]

She wasn't hiding it very well. They knew that she was on the phone. It just took a while for them to realize that it was a 911 call. Considering her line of work and how calm she was, it's understandable that they were surprised to find out that she was calling the police.

Shannan seemed way too calm for someone who believed that her life was in danger. She accused her driver of being involved in a plot to kill her, then asked him to take her home a few seconds later. She screamed and ran away from Gus's house for no discernible reason.

Shannan was diagnosed with bipolar disorder and did not take medication for it. She sounded just like a relative of mine who went off her meds and believed that everyone was conspiring against her.

A trained psychiatrist listened to her call and noticed all of this. People can believe what they want, but I just don't see it. All of her responses gave me red flags.

This is the reason why SKs target sex workers. They are a vulnerable population. The SK actually anticipates arguments like this to ensue once he does away with a victim who is a member of a vulnerable population. There will always be the 'could have been x" or the "may have been y." Or the "likely it's _________." The general population would rather believe these theories that are viewed as less threatening-- for the general population. The Suffolk County Police Psychic knows that.

LISK was clearly killing people of the same vulnerable population in this area, very close to where SG's body was recovered. If RH was LISK, he frequented hundreds of sex workers. He may have at some point had contact with SG. If he did, all bets on this one are off because that opens the door to a potential contact that very night, one that might even have (purposely) implied there could be a conspiratorial aspect-- even if it didn't exist. I used to buy into the hypothermia. I no longer do, though.

 

[kittythehare]

We were not there. We heard the 911 call. She was coherent.

Brewer was there. He tried to lure Shannan out of his house. Then she ran off, and he....went to bed?

Pak was there. He was following her on his car. Coletti says he called 911. Then Pak goes home?

Coletti was there. He thought she was 14. He called 911. He says he waited for a response...the police eventually came. The "14" year old is no where to be found. Coletti, who lives right next to the gate, didn't mention Pak leaving. He goes on with his day?

PH is supposedly sleeping but calls Mari soon afterwards to talk about his interactions with her?

Nobody is around to say to the police, she went that way, towards the reeds? Nobody calls to her?

The timelines of the people around Shannan don't make sense. With all those people awake, there was no way Shannan ran into the marsh and died without help dying.

MOO

I absolutely agree.
Nobody wants her to have been a victim of anybody at all.

She was a nice kid, thought of others..
and these things happen to nice kids.

Her medical history is completely irrelevant because she was organised, sane and coherent and going about her business, arranging her appointments and transport etc like a normal business woman or man does.There is every chance she ran into him or one of his mates that night..
Every chance.

 

[kittythehare]

All

Certainly agree that she did not die innocently. Murder or not, there were countless opportunities that night for things to either never progress to the point they did, or for residents to help her after she left JBs house.

Hackett is certainly an untrustworthy person. Nobody truly knows if he gave her drugs… even if he did I don’t think it’s likely he had the physical ability to murder and then dump her body deep in the marsh. IMO drugs played a part in the events that night but think it’s more likely that was from whatever JB gave her to “party”.

Temps were low enough (60° per the nearest weather station, plus it’s colder on the coast with the wind and sea water temps) to cause hypothermia. If she was undressed, in water, with the wind, death from exposure is probable. With water temps between 50-60° expected survival time is 6 hours or less (just to give an example).

Cause of death will remain a mystery and agree death by drowning is less likely than other theories.

I just can’t get over the question of who had the time, opportunity, ability, and to a lesser extent motive to kill her.

Appreciate your thoughts… crazy to think how different things could have been if it didn’t take 45 min for the police to respond.

Well, for one thing, we do not know that she died that particular night.
We do not know where she died or when she died or what happened to her before she died.
Maybe it's a thing that many incels, misogynists, serial or opportunistic killers use that beach to dump bodies..
That's quite possible.

 

[WINDSOR]

Shannan, was treated by Dr. Hackett before she disappeared. He should be the one giving a statement to LE regarding Shanna's mental and physical condition. As part of her treatment, I believe the Dr. gave her some medication and or an injection.

If Shannan was under any duress or not capable to be released from care, any competent Doctor would not allow her leave by herself. So either she was in excellent physical and mental condition, and allowed to leave, or........she was released into the care of someone like Michael Pak. This would make sense as MP was Shannan's driver and security.

Either,
1) Dr. Hackett did harm to Shannan or,

2) Shannan was released to Michael Pak, and he did harm her, or

3) Shannan was lucid and healthy and allowed to leave on her own, and she encountered someone who did her harm, or

4) Shannan, lucid and physically healthy, based on Dr. Hackett's analysis of the situation, wandered in to the swamp all on her own and met her demise as the official SCPD statements. If she was lucid and healthy why would she do that?

Cannot be any other alternatives in my opinion.

#2 Sounds most likely based on what public statements Hackett and Pak have made.

 

[WINDSOR]

Since I believe Dr. Hackett's knowledge and testimony in this case are extremely important, I have some questions that maybe some of you Sleuths can answer.
1) What is the status of the case against Dr. Hackett brought forward by John Ray on behalf of the Gilbert family?
2) Has the FBI ever interviewed Dr. Hackett in relation to the Shannan Gilbert case? It is a felony to lie to the FBI

 

[dotr]

Since I believe Dr. Hackett's knowledge and testimony in this case are extremely important, I have some questions that maybe some of you Sleuths can answer.
1) What is the status of the case against Dr. Hackett brought forward by John Ray on behalf of the Gilbert family?
2) Has the FBI ever interviewed Dr. Hackett in relation to the Shannan Gilbert case? It is a felony to lie to the FBI

Answers possibly found within this link, imo.

Estate of Gilbert v Hackett

Estate of Gilbert v Hackett - 2018 NY Slip Op 28349

law.justia.com

state of Gilbert v Hackett​

[*1] Estate of Gilbert v Hackett 2018 NY Slip Op 28349 Decided on October 29, 2018 Supreme Court, Suffolk County Berland, J. Published by New York State Law Reporting Bureau pursuant to Judiciary Law § 431. This opinion is uncorrected and subject to revision before publication in the printed Official Reports.

Decided on October 29, 2018
Supreme Court, Suffolk County

Estate of Shannan Gilbert BY SHEREE GILBERT and FRANCES NICTORA, CO-ADMINISTRATRICES and ESTATE OF MARI GILBERT BY SHEREE GILBERT, ADMINISTRATRIX, Plaintiffs,

against Charles Peter Hackett, D.O., a/k/a C. PETER HACKETT, D.O., Defendants.''

 

[WINDSOR]

Answers possibly found within this link, imo.

Estate of Gilbert v Hackett

Estate of Gilbert v Hackett - 2018 NY Slip Op 28349

law.justia.com

state of Gilbert v Hackett​

[*1] Estate of Gilbert v Hackett 2018 NY Slip Op 28349 Decided on October 29, 2018 Supreme Court, Suffolk County Berland, J. Published by New York State Law Reporting Bureau pursuant to Judiciary Law § 431. This opinion is uncorrected and subject to revision before publication in the printed Official Reports.

Decided on October 29, 2018
Supreme Court, Suffolk County

Estate of Shannan Gilbert BY SHEREE GILBERT and FRANCES NICTORA, CO-ADMINISTRATRICES and ESTATE OF MARI GILBERT BY SHEREE GILBERT, ADMINISTRATRIX, Plaintiffs,

against Charles Peter Hackett, D.O., a/k/a C. PETER HACKETT, D.O., Defendants.''

Thanks dotr,
I believe this is the ruling that ordered the release of Shannan's 911 call. The release had been bitterly opposed by the SCPD.

Last I heard Dr. Hackett was living in Florida, the SCPD refused FBI help in this case, so I have to assume the FBI did not interview Hackett.

I would not be surprised if the Civil action against Hackett is dormant, as there likely is nobody to pay the Estate's law firm, RAY, MITEV & ASSOCIATES.

 

[snooptroop88]

Am hearing Shannan's name mentioned quite frequently in the reports of LE's recent searches in Manorville. Also seeing Sugar Bear mentioned quite often. I'm glad they're not being forgotten and I'm hearing them mentioned so frequently.

Gilgo Beach serial killer investigation spreads out across Manorville, Long Island. What residents are saying about the search

Twenty years after the remains of two Gilgo Beach victims were found in Manorville, a widespread search has resumed there.

www.cbsnews.com

Hopefully, Shannan's case will one day be reopened as a murder investigation.

 

[nanabanana78]

I keep going back to shannans 911 call and that dr Hackett and brewer were both in close proximity to where she was both last seen alive and from where she was found. She kept saying they which would indicate more than one person .is it possible that the dr drugged her? Brewer was not only the last known address but not far from where she was found.could Brewer and Hackett both be involved in shannons death...even if indirectly if she had escaped with or without drugs in her system. Its easy to get disoriented and confused especially when your life is in danger. Its nighttime...i dunno any thoughts?

 

[WINDSOR]

I keep going back to shannans 911 call and that dr Hackett and brewer were both in close proximity to where she was both last seen alive and from where she was found. She kept saying they which would indicate more than one person .is it possible that the dr drugged her? Brewer was not only the last known address but not far from where she was found.could Brewer and Hackett both be involved in shannons death...even if indirectly if she had escaped with or without drugs in her system. Its easy to get disoriented and confused especially when your life is in danger. Its nighttime...i dunno any thoughts?

All your questions, could be answered with a YES!

We know at minimum, based on their own statements, Park; Hackett and Brewer had more that passing interactions with Shannan that night.

We can be pretty confident that Pak and Hackett were probably the last people to see Shannan alive.

We know that all three men, were interviewed by SCPD and they found no evidence of any crime(s). Of course this we all know the stories of the SCPD corruption and incompetence.

In my opinion, as long as the SCPD is in charge of this case, no crimes will be discovered.

 

[snooptroop88]

They're back at Heuermann's house, evidently they executed a search warrant and there was massive police presence.

Police continue to stand guard at home of suspected Gilgo Beach serial killer Rex Heuermann as search wraps up for day

Police arrived at the Massapequa Park home early Monday morning, 10 months after Heuermann was arrested.

longisland.news12.com

 

[WINDSOR]

Sadly, Shannan's case appears to remain dormant. I can understand the LE's focus on Heuermann's case.
Shannan's demise does not appear to match RH's M.O.

 

[CuriousCricket]

snipped for focus
LISK was clearly killing people of the same vulnerable population in this area, very close to where SG's body was recovered. If RH was LISK, he frequented hundreds of sex workers. He may have at some point had contact with SG. If he did, all bets on this one are off because that opens the door to a potential contact that very night, one that might even have (purposely) implied there could be a conspiratorial aspect-- even if it didn't exist. I used to buy into the hypothermia. I no longer do, though.

https://pix11.com/news/local-news/new-evidence-connects-gilgo-beach-suspect-rex-heuermann-with-other-victims-attorney-says/

From the taxi driver's information in this article, I happen to believe RH did have previous contact with SG, plus a later encounter with the driver that was scary and she was very lucky her dispatcher was listening in.

This testimony has deepened my belief that the reason SG went berserk that evening was because RH had arrived as a guest at the party while SG and the host had left the home. When she came in and saw RH, she likely knew she was in grave danger -- IMO.

I happen to also believe, based on knowing of the existence of the Trapeaze Club near RH's office and online groups, that RH was part of a group -- not necessarily a killing group but people with the same sexual interests as he had -- who gathered and partied together.

While I don't find the Karen Vergata witness as credible as the taxi driver, there is an interesting parallel in the stories: sex workers who may have been recommended as guests. My working theory is that RH knew he could never lure SG, so he recommended her to the host who made the call and engaged her services for the evening.

Personally, I see SG's death as too big a coincidence not to be related. It's possible there will never be enough evidence to bring her case to court. In my opinion, RH displays spiteful behavior in a way that makes it unlikely he would ever give her "the satisfaction" of admitting to killing her.

Again, all just my own opinion and guessing.

 

[CuriousCricket]

https://pix11.com/news/local-news/new-evidence-connects-gilgo-beach-suspect-rex-heuermann-with-other-victims-attorney-says/

From the taxi driver's information in this article, I happen to believe RH did have previous contact with SG, plus a later encounter with the driver that was scary and she was very lucky her dispatcher was listening in.

This testimony has deepened my belief that the reason SG went berserk that evening was because RH had arrived as a guest at the party while SG and the host had left the home. When she came in and saw RH, she likely knew she was in grave danger -- IMO.

I happen to also believe, based on knowing of the existence of the Trapeaze Club near RH's office and online groups, that RH was part of a group -- not necessarily a killing group but people with the same sexual interests as he had -- who gathered and partied together.

While I don't find the Karen Vergata witness as credible as the taxi driver, there is an interesting parallel in the stories: sex workers who may have been recommended as guests. My working theory is that RH knew he could never lure SG, so he recommended her to the host who made the call and engaged her services for the evening.

Personally, I see SG's death as too big a coincidence not to be related. It's possible there will never be enough evidence to bring her case to court. In my opinion, RH displays spiteful behavior in a way that makes it unlikely he would ever give her "the satisfaction" of admitting to killing her.

Again, all just my own opinion and guessing.

I've just realized there's another parallel: the cop boyfriend who picked up the SW and delivered her to the party and the host who would have contacted SG to attend the "party." That would have left RH completely out of obtaining the victim.

Again, personal musings and opinion.

 

[I am not Sherlock H.]

All your questions, could be answered with a YES!

We know at minimum, based on their own statements, Park; Hackett and Brewer had more that passing interactions with Shannan that night.

We can be pretty confident that Pak and Hackett were probably the last people to see Shannan alive.

We know that all three men, were interviewed by SCPD and they found no evidence of any crime(s). Of course this we all know the stories of the SCPD corruption and incompetence.

In my opinion, as long as the SCPD is in charge of this case, no crimes will be discovered.

Yes Windsor!^^^….. and this case, or maybe should say the investigation’ into it…. I need to be careful. And not at all picking at your post….. agree entirely…. and this one particular point strikes me:

“were interviewed by SCPD and they found no evidence of any crime(s).”

That IMO is the weakest link in the chain. And to see that FBI was not earlier involved when there were IMO multi-state jurisdiction considerations. (Insert raised brow emoji…. steam exiting my ears….)

And then the early reports IIRC of denials from PH and supposed phone calls between him and SG late mother? Why exactly did SG ‘watch’ or her driver leave? Why did he have that ‘clear’ to leave her? He had only one role that evening IMO. Was that fully investigated? And IIUC an autopsy report for which manner and cause of SG death are still undetermined and / or not known? So IIUC that means the case into her death cannot be closed? There is so much left unresolved IMO. FBI needs to be involved.

I hope this is ultimately clarified and better explained and resolved. And I also hope the SG case does not become ‘lost’ amongst the dealings of the RH LISK / GILGO case.

If not for the inquiry into the disappearance of SG, pressing of her late mother MG and family for answers, and the work of John Ray in the case one has to wonder how much if any of the RH LISK case would have come to light. IMO much is owed to the SG case. To answer it. Completely. MOO

 

[WINDSOR]

CuriousCricket said "This testimony has deepened my belief that the reason SG went berserk that evening was because RH had arrived as a guest at the party while SG and the host had left the home. When she came in and saw RH, she likely knew she was in grave danger -- IMO."

I had never considered that. Great Point. Does anybody know if RH knew Joseph Brewer, the party host? Had Brewer ever been to RH's home for a party?

 

[AppleTreeGreen]

Yes Windsor!^^^….. and this case, or maybe should say the investigation’ into it…. I need to be careful. And not at all picking at your post….. agree entirely…. and this one particular point strikes me:

“were interviewed by SCPD and they found no evidence of any crime(s).”

That IMO is the weakest link in the chain. And to see that FBI was not earlier involved when there were IMO multi-state jurisdiction considerations. (Insert raised brow emoji…. steam exiting my ears….)

And then the early reports IIRC of denials from PH and supposed phone calls between him and SG late mother? Why exactly did SG ‘watch’ or her driver leave? Why did he have that ‘clear’ to leave her? He had only one role that evening IMO. Was that fully investigated? And IIUC an autopsy report for which manner and cause of SG death are still undetermined and / or not known? So IIUC that means the case into her death cannot be closed? There is so much left unresolved IMO. FBI needs to be involved.

I hope this is ultimately clarified and better explained and resolved. And I also hope the SG case does not become ‘lost’ amongst the dealings of the RH LISK / GILGO case.

If not for the inquiry into the disappearance of SG, pressing of her late mother MG and family for answers, and the work of John Ray in the case one has to wonder how much if any of the RH LISK case would have come to light. IMO much is owed to the SG case. To answer it. Completely. MOO

One other thing that bothered me about SG’s disappearance is that I am under the impression that the SCPD didn’t put an adequate amount of effort into searching for her. After speaking to the neighbors and witnesses who encountered and heard Shannon and after the arrival of one I do think blood hounds, much better search lighting, helicopters and sonars could have been deployed to have improved their chances of finding her, hopefully alive, or recovering her remains so that a more helpful autopsy and forensic investigation could have been performed in a timely manner. I think of this too in light of reading several articles online that state at least 2 residents called 911 for her and ultimately her remains were found not far from PH’s house. This implies to me that her distance was not far enough away from residential areas that she could not have been located much more quickly, or at least in a timely manner, and that perhaps she could have even been saved. LE also had access to trained emergency, medical and mental health professionals and interventionist that could have used megaphones to communicate with her, even if one sidedly, to build enough trust to guide her to them, and out of the marsh, with the sound of their voice and any large lighting equipment flare guns and sirens had their disposal to guide her.

I understand and am not trying to downplay thar there was concern of first responders and LE drowning while searching in the marsh but they do have other have organizations, including those based on conservation in that area, that could have been a big help consultation wise and perhaps even provide equipment and training to prevent such deaths from occurring as they searched to locate SG.

One of the things that does sadden me most about SG’s case is that I do think she could have been saved or at least located much sooner, particularly after the witnesses and other 911 callers were spoken too, so that her and her family could get the answers and justice they deserve after fighting for so long for LE and the media to even care about the fact that she was missing and to take her case seriously. All they wanted to do, like any other concerned family searching for their beloved, was bring her home safe, alive into their loving arms.