Possible Victim: Shannan Gilbert

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bodhi93 said:
Thanks Goathair... maybe you would know this... Aren't there classic car shows on LI in the summer? If so, are they open to all cars? or only certain makes/models? for example a corvette club, or a mustang/shelby club.

I wonder if he's ever been to one, either as an owner or a spectator... hmmm... interesting. I wonder if there is a club specifically for Holden owners... I know that Holden has made cars under other makes (e.g. Pontiac), but my thought is that this club would be for the Holden brand (most likely not sold in North America).

ETA: I answered my own question. Yes there are classic car shows on LI and there looks to be a lot of them. I haven't been able to find a club specifically for Holden yet.

The other thing I'm wondering is maybe the person who put together the montage found a picture of Peter Hackett and assumed that they had the right person. When I google "ehholden1965" the reference to the facebook page comes up, but it looks like it was created in the UK. Who knows...
Click to expand...

I would watch Captree. =) Sunday mornings.

http://www.mjrphoto.net/Car-Shows/Ocean-Parkway-NY-2012/Car-Shows-Ocean-Parkway1112/20842276_QKfzp2#!i=1654604886&k=qBVFRHW
 
I'm going to bet that she is not the one that puts those videos together. She probably has someone close to her that knows a slideshow program and she just gives content and ideas then uploads it to her account. If they were missing a picture, they might have just googled or facebooked for one.

How come I don't hear anything about the drifter anymore.?
 
Found this editorial written today:

http://www.newsday.com/opinion/letters/letter-all-out-effort-for-shannan-1.3473520

Doesn't make alot of sense to me. Didn't even Pak and Brewer say she was freaking out and Pak said he was telling her to calm down? Other articles described her as "hysterical and incoherent". Yet this person said she was calm. And she has a history of being paranoid and irrational, which explains her behavior, but still, she's calm? And she's running around and hiding under and behind things according to witnesses, but everything seemed AOK? Why did she call 911? To chat? I wish I could hear the call because I really don't get this.
 
That letter is really something. First it's wrong that Shannan was calm and then it's wrong that she was upset? Isn't that what he's saying?
 
goathairjones said:
Hey Smooth,

What you say makes sense. Especially since my friend that lives in Oak Beach West kind of gives me the impression that the entire town is about sex and drugs. And I wouldn't be surprised if there were some bizarre fetishes mixed in with some of these freaks. This is definitely worth a deeper look! Thanks!
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I have some questions, I am not discounting anyone's idea that there is a group responsilbe in some way, I am merely going to (ask) explain why I have a difficult time believing there is a group of killers:

1.) If there is a group of killers, how did SG ever physically escape this group and make a 20 min 911 call from inside the john's house? (Let alone the other possible escapee)

2.) If there is a group of killers, how could there be a lone neighbor (fluke) airing them out publicly and in the media, and not get killed. Certainly a GROUP OF MEN WHO MURDER TOGETHER would take him out eazy peezy.

3.) How probable is it to find a group (even if it is just 2 men) in a community of 70 homes who are willing to commit serial murder, and the murder of a child? We know these potential group members (ob assoc. residents) didn't move to this gated community because of a common interest in sadism and murder. So, given 70 homes, what are the odds of finding multiple men willing to commit serial murder? I won't even asnwer that.

4.) Even if there is a group of men who are sharing prostitutes for the purpose of convenient-behind-your-wifes-back sex, and one of them, unbeknownest to the rest is a SK, it doesn't seem likely that these men would have been interested in many of those first victims. The G4 seems some what possibe for that scenario, but given the income level in the association, I would say that even the G4 was not the upper shelf product that SY etc would have sexual interest in. The victim's prior to the G4 don't seem much like real targets for a sexual encounter for an OB re$ident, they seem more like run-away, desperate, zero support network people, addicts etc. that would be targeted for murder because they are considered nobodys in society.

5.) If there is a group of killers, how come the caller didn't say, "you know what we did to your ..." He uses "I" instead.


To me it seems much more plausible that someone with very low self esteem would feel like they had what it took to convince these homeless addicted runaways to come to a halfway house and take a pill and become non-human cadaver-like physical object for the sadist to torture and kill in order to empower his extremely low self-esteem. Then around 2007 the sk discovered craigslist and was able to target less homeless/addicted victims, which was his biggest mistake. I can also see such a SK being someone who two people could escape from, even if it was too late (venom already administered).

I can see that there would be people in the neighborhood who were too deep in denial to believe someone so monstrous could be that nice fellow they know down the road, or people who are just too interested in protecting the image of their community and their own image because they live there to want to admit they think he could live there. I think that what may appear to be a group of people conspiring to hide their murderous activity is in reality just a community giving all their fellow residents the benefit of the doubt, just people like most of us who and are uncapable of comprehending the possibility that their friend or neighbor is a closet monster. (And one individual with a very unfortunate connection to a manipulative serial killer.)
 
Sexual sadism as defined by Robert R. Hazelwood:

“Sexual sadism is a persistent pattern of becoming sexually excited in response to another''s suffering. Granted, sexual excitement can occur at odd times even in normal people. But to the sexually sadistic offender, it is the suffering of the victim that is sexually arousing.”

"The critical issues are whether the victim suffered, whether the suffering was intentionally elicited, and whether the suffering sexually aroused the offender. This is why neither sexual nor cruel acts committed on an unconscious or dead victim is necessarily evidence of sexual sadism; such a victim cannot experience suffering. For this reason, postmortem injuries alone do not indicate sexual sadism.”

*Quoted from "The Criminal Sexual Sadist" by Robert R. Hazelwood; published September 8, 2011

http://www.crimeandclues.com/index....minal-profiling/34-the-criminal-sexual-sadist

To obtain the above link, Google "the criminal sexual sadist"+"Robert Hazelwood". It is the first search result.
 
the quiet girl said:
screen shot of the guy
For some reason he looks familiar and I don't have time to look back at things I read on line about this case. It has to be from that.
Click to expand...

You are right. It sure looks like a photo of Flukeyou to me.
 
bodhi93 said:
Thanks Goathair... maybe you would know this... Aren't there classic car shows on LI in the summer? If so, are they open to all cars? or only certain makes/models? for example a corvette club, or a mustang/shelby club.

I wonder if he's ever been to one, either as an owner or a spectator... hmmm... interesting. I wonder if there is a club specifically for Holden owners... I know that Holden has made cars under other makes (e.g. Pontiac), but my thought is that this club would be for the Holden brand (most likely not sold in North America).

ETA: I answered my own question. Yes there are classic car shows on LI and there looks to be a lot of them. I haven't been able to find a club specifically for Holden yet.

The other thing I'm wondering is maybe the person who put together the montage found a picture of Peter Hackett and assumed that they had the right person. When I google "ehholden1965" the reference to the facebook page comes up, but it looks like it was created in the UK. Who knows...
Click to expand...

There are car clubs tat meet every Sunday morning in the Oak Beach parking lot. Car show
 
dc20015 said:
Found this editorial written today:

http://www.newsday.com/opinion/letters/letter-all-out-effort-for-shannan-1.3473520

Doesn't make alot of sense to me. Didn't even Pak and Brewer say she was freaking out and Pak said he was telling her to calm down? Other articles described her as "hysterical and incoherent". Yet this person said she was calm. And she has a history of being paranoid and irrational, which explains her behavior, but still, she's calm? And she's running around and hiding under and behind things according to witnesses, but everything seemed AOK? Why did she call 911? To chat? I wish I could hear the call because I really don't get this.
Click to expand...

Well that detective's professional assessment backs up my theory that SG was a person whose reactions were often uncontrollable. One minute she could be calm and a few minutes later one thing could set her off and make her extremely emotional and excited.
 
dc20015 said:
Found this editorial written today:

http://www.newsday.com/opinion/letters/letter-all-out-effort-for-shannan-1.3473520

Doesn't make alot of sense to me. Didn't even Pak and Brewer say she was freaking out and Pak said he was telling her to calm down? Other articles described her as "hysterical and incoherent". Yet this person said she was calm. And she has a history of being paranoid and irrational, which explains her behavior, but still, she's calm? And she's running around and hiding under and behind things according to witnesses, but everything seemed AOK? Why did she call 911? To chat? I wish I could hear the call because I really don't get this.
Click to expand...

Well, from my experience in psych, I know that sometimes what people are saying during a psychotic episode (IF Shannan was psychotic, which we don't really know) can be discongruent to their behavior and apparent emotions. Perhaps in the glare of the media those present unconsciously exaggerated her behavior?

Regardless, I feel like I'm one of the few who has faith in the police trying to solve this case. It seems like every serial murder investigation has it's period where the public grows angry and suspicious of them. What do any of us really know about the investigation that is going on at this point?
 
Seaslug44 said:
Well that detective's professional assessment backs up my theory that SG was a person whose reactions were often uncontrollable. One minute she could be calm and a few minutes later one thing could set her off and make her extremely emotional and excited.
Click to expand...

However, from what I remember, that the individuals claiming her attitude would be set off at any given moment are suspicious. Her boyfriend who used this as part of his excuse for breaking her jaw. Not to reliable for me.
 
Seaslug44 said:
Well that detective's professional assessment backs up my theory that SG was a person whose reactions were often uncontrollable. One minute she could be calm and a few minutes later one thing could set her off and make her extremely emotional and excited.
Click to expand...

By all accounts, overall, she was a very changeable person. Even her sisters say this. I'm just saying I find this editorial interesting and confusing because everything else has pointed to her being frightened. This writer basically states that she was calm and not acting threatened at any point during the call. If that was the case, what was she even calling about?
 
Clem Snide said:
Well, from my experience in psych, I know that sometimes what people are saying during a psychotic episode (IF Shannan was psychotic, which we don't really know) can be discongruent to their behavior and apparent emotions. Perhaps in the glare of the media those present unconsciously exaggerated her behavior?

Regardless, I feel like I'm one of the few who has faith in the police trying to solve this case. It seems like every serial murder investigation has it's period where the public grows angry and suspicious of them. What do any of us really know about the investigation that is going on at this point?
Click to expand...

I'm not trying to engage in cop-hate or even trying to say that what the writer claims here is untrue. In general, I have to assume out of fairness that most cops do try to do a good job. As far as I know, none of us here has heard the 911 call, so we have no idea beyond what has been described to us. It is interesting, though, that this flies directly in the face of every account given by everyone who has made a statement on her demeanor and words that night and while she was making the call. So, it does make me raise an eyebrow.

I do think that it is important, too, to stress what you made sure to include and that is that just because this girl had a diagnosed mental illness that we be fair to her and should not assume she was psychotic that evening. In bipolar illness (which affects both genders equally and is not the equivalent to just being really, really moody), in fact, people only become psychotic at the extremes of the disease and usually they would be acting strangely in the hours and days prior to completely losing it. It's a cyclical disease that waxes and wanes with normal periods in between. BP IIs and cyclothymes tend to more often be rapid cyclers, but there are still patterns and buildups and comedowns and those subgroups also usually don't experience psychotic episodes. If she was more or less rational upon arriving in OB and just snapped and wasn't really threatened, I would be more likely to believe it was drug and/or alcohol-induced.
 
dc20015 said:
I'm not trying to engage in cop-hate or even trying to say that what the writer claims here is untrue. In general, I have to assume out of fairness that most cops do try to do a good job. As far as I know, none of us here has heard the 911 call, so we have no idea beyond what has been described to us. It is interesting, though, that this flies directly in the face of every account given by everyone who has made a statement on her demeanor and words that night and while she was making the call. So, it does make me raise an eyebrow.

I do think that it is important, too, to stress what you made sure to include and that is that just because this girl had a diagnosed mental illness that we be fair to her and should not assume she was psychotic that evening. In bipolar illness (which affects both genders equally and is not the equivalent to just being really, really moody), in fact, people only become psychotic at the extremes of the disease and usually they would be acting strangely in the hours and days prior to completely losing it. It's a cyclical disease that waxes and wanes with normal periods in between. BP IIs and cyclothymes tend to more often be rapid cyclers, but there are still patterns and buildups and comedowns and those subgroups also usually don't experience psychotic episodes. If she was more or less rational upon arriving in OB and just snapped and wasn't really threatened, I would be more likely to believe it was drug and/or alcohol-induced.
Click to expand...

Good point. Bipolar disorder sometimes doesn't even involve psychosis. I was working with the assumption that she may have been coked up, manic and psychotic, which is an easy, though not necessarily accurate explanation for what caused her behavior.
 
I continue to study the NY Post photo of Shannan's remains...and I've spent so much time enlarging, brightening, etc that I think I'm going to go blind.

But there is something in that photo I cannot figure out for the life of me...

and I don't believe it's Shannan's shirt.

IMO, it appears to be some sort of debris on top of her upper body and it appears to be "machine like."

in this picture, her skull is at the bottom and her legs are at the top and the black thing on her upper body is really what has me totally stumped. Anyway, I believe 100% that she was murdered.
 

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Clem Snide said:
Good point. Bipolar disorder sometimes doesn't even involve psychosis. I was working with the assumption that she may have been coked up, manic and psychotic, which is an easy, though not necessarily accurate explanation for what caused her behavior.
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Yeah, sometimes the combo having a mental illness plus getting high on something or drunk and especially if there's also rx meds being taken can be a real recipe for crazy.

Another factor to look at is did she have panic disorder? It often goes hand in hand with BPD and a panic attack comes on much more suddenly than a bipolar episode and often is associated with the need to move/run and sometimes with difficulty thinking straight and speaking.

Again, this is no theory I'm putting together. It's just points to ponder. My hunch, personally, is this woman met with some sort of foul play. But I think I'd be a fool to commit to a theory about something I didn't witness and about people I didn't know.
 
Clem Snide said:
Good point. Bipolar disorder sometimes doesn't even involve psychosis. I was working with the assumption that she may have been coked up, manic and psychotic, which is an easy, though not necessarily accurate explanation for what caused her behavior.
Click to expand...

Although Mari said she wasn't a drug user, there were at least two others close to her that said that she was. They said she used coke and ecstasy.

Have you ever mixed those two? I have, when I was much younger.

I'll tell you what the result is...

Absolute panic. I was positively sure I was going to die for about 3-4 hours.

SG's panic didn't have to be bipolar related. Her panic could have been completely drug related. The whole concept of buying playing cards from CVS in the middle of the night??? C'mon. That's a hallmark of a coke binge if I've ever seen one.

MrsPC, I truly respect your thought processes and opinions here at Websleuths, but you stated in the above post that you were 100% positive Shannan died of a homicide. I think you need to back that up. I mean, if you said that you were 100% positive that the GB4 died of a homicide, nobody would disagree. But Shannan? I'm at like a 1% chance that this was a homicide based on the evidence and information that we have available that we've exhaustively analyzed and debated. By the way, did I mention that I REALLY respect your thought process? Also by the way MrsPC, what is your take on the Carman Monaco Jr. thread?
 
inspctrgadget said:
Although Mari said she wasn't a drug user, there were at least two others close to her that said that she was. They said she used coke and ecstasy.

Have you ever mixed those two? I have, when I was much younger.

I'll tell you what the result is...

Absolute panic. I was positively sure I was going to die for about 3-4 hours.

SG's panic didn't have to be bipolar related. Her panic could have been completely drug related. The whole concept of buying playing cards from CVS in the middle of the night??? C'mon. That's a hallmark of a coke binge if I've ever seen one.

MrsPC, I truly respect your thought processes and opinions here at Websleuths, but you stated in the above post that you were 100% positive Shannan died of a homicide. I think you need to back that up. I mean, if you said that you were 100% positive that the GB4 died of a homicide, nobody would disagree. But Shannan? I'm at like a 1% chance that this was a homicide based on the evidence and information that we have available that we've exhaustively analyzed and debated. By the way, did I mention that I REALLY respect your thought process? Also by the way MrsPC, what is your take on the Carman Monaco Jr. thread?
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And still yet, I mixed those 2 drugs numerous times in my early 20s and had a great time. Everyone is different. I totally get your point, but just as I was saying to MSPC that not everyone survives an acid trip intact even though she did, it isn't true that coke and E always result in panic. That is not a hard fact. If that were the case, alot of raves back in the 90s would've been nothing but a bunch of bummed out terrified kids instead of a party;-)
 
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