Possibly related cases (GB4, Manorville, Bittrolff victims, & others)

[FindHG]

:welcome: GINK and Capricorn76. Thank you for joining and for your well considered questions. You seem to have drawn great sleuthers to respond, which I especially appreciate, as I get to learn things about these cases as the new sleuthers do. I hope to see you around on the threads.

The one thing I took away from viewing parts 5 and 6 is to me, their not the work of LISK. He used a fire arm where LISK gets his high off the control and hands on taking life.

After my own research and watching the Killing Season, I dated when AC killers last victim is reported missing, Then looked at when the first Long Island murder occurred, then the date of the last LISK murder date.

Then I had noticed Ohio serial killings began right after LISK murders ended, This is relevant because all 3 places had virtually same types of killings, victims same all struggling prostitutes, drug addicted women. Similar dumping of bodies near water, all 3 states victims were parted out in different townships, counties. The wrapping or covering bodies in similar way though slightly different but consistent.

All 3 state's victims seem to highlight series of 4 bodies, though others too, but the 4 body theme is in AC Gilgo and Ohio. Ohio is about 540 miles from ny, so maybe the LISK has a work schedule that afforded him time to travel to Ohio, do what he does and returns unmissed. I strongly believe a photo of a person of interest shown in locations in Ohio that is of a person from ny or nj might get hit. Also I would cross reference records such as dmv, Golf courses as I believe there is a golf theme in a profile of person of interest for LISK. NJ records too. These are just basic now because there are so many specific details that support this theory. The Killing Season series and the talk show was very well done, these people care about every victim no matter what.

Though I have the theory of LISK AC and Ohio, I did learn a few things that I wouldn't have by just doing my own studies, research. Though no one knows me here, I have a strong history on working highly controversial cases between 2006 through 2011. then stopped as it took it's toll on me. This case someone asked my opinion and I didn't have one. So, I was propelled into learning everything from everywhere and I have a lot more to organize.

Have the autopsy results ever been released or discussed? Also what about the baby? The baby was wearing jewelry and was described as non-caucasian, what does that mean? My guess is that the child was most likely of Mexican descent/or some other Latin heritage. I am Mexican and know what we buy jewelry for our babies. And another thing I highly doubt the mother Jane doe #3 actually took her child to visit a trick. Not sure if anyone is going to read this. But i feel that by knowing the victims it might lead back to the killer otherwise why else would the killer take the extra effort to hide any identification marks, such as in the case of the mother who had a tattoo and the killer (i read) tried to take it off...hmmm

 

[docrocker]

SIMILARITIES BETWEEN GB4 & AC4 KILLINGS:
(Hope this isn't a 2nd post. Computer crashed)

After looking at the data I've been able to find thus far, I wanted to post the profile of both burial sites & the victims of the SK (s?) in a more coherent manner than my previous posts. Some of the comments here have been posted before. Some, I have altered after having more information.

Disclosure Statement:
Although there are many great profiles & opinions here, I'm basing my comments on the opinion that there is one SK in both areas. I believe this firmly with the specific "4" victims in each case (not any other victims). In the spirit of working together, sharing information, & respecting everyone here, my post here is not intended to be argumentative or disrespectful of any other ideas. I'm posting merely for information purposes. Also, I've contacted one of the leading investigators in one of the cases below, because just as I've noticed other people saying, it's difficult to get good, accurate information about the victims, the sites, how they were arranged in the burial sites, etc. Hopefully, I'll have better information about them soon. I'll let you all know. Nevertheless, these posts are based on there being one SK in both GB4 & AC4, and very possibly the Daytona Beach Four:

One Serial Killer:
In both cases, Gilgo Beach & Atlantic City, there are 4 victims who were methodically & precisely murdered & arranged in a particular fashion. This serves several purposes for the SK. Just as he taunts families of victims by net & phone, these burial sites are meant to taunt not only the families, but police & the citizens of the communities. We're all aware that SK's are incredibly narcissistic or arrogant. They don't believe they will ever be caught. But, that doesn't mean that they're intelligent. The people posting here on Websleuths have many times the brain cells of any arrogant SK. Nevertheless, this SK is taunting. Another purpose of the way the victims were placed is meant to give clues to either the SK's home, business, or killing site (my original post about the positioning being a directional clue was also stated as such by the FBI profiler looking at the AC4 killings). He truly believes he won't be caught. Many SK's leave similar clues, not usually to give themselves up but to taunt detectives & local LE. They laugh at LE & think that they're all stupid because they've gotten away with murdering so many times.

This SK is an Organized serial killer in both cases. This is not the sadistic work of a disorganized SK. He's precise, methodical, & chooses specific victims for his trophies. Other killers and/or SK's in the area are Disorganized & Opportunistic killers. Whether this SK is connected to any other murders in this same area or other areas can only be speculated on at this time. It's actually a tremendous stretch to say specific SK changes & it defies known psychiatric knowledge that a psychopathic SK changes his cravings, mission, fetish, or whatever motivator he possesses that makes him choose to kill. The Truck Stop sex worker trade has been going on for decades. It was active & the murders of these sex workers were occurring at an alarming rate as far back as the 80's when I lived in west & south Texas. It was well known. Those killers or SK's are Opportunistic SK's. They're not Organized, they're not Mission SK's, & they're not Fetish SK's. They're Opportunistic SK's. The killer finds the opportunity to satisfy his despicable cravings to murder in order to achieve sexual gratification or whatever other reason. Nevertheless, even if the SK in these two cases kills other victims in another fashion (not likely), he won't be found by chasing our tails. The best way to find this killer is to solve the puzzles he left at the burial sites. The FBI should have been completely involved from the beginning; however, due to the number of terrorists who are being found walking in to the borders of our country now, they had to profile terrorists rather than SK's. Therefore, we here at Websleuths will discover who these monsters are & will help families find closure in their grief.

Btw, most of the SK's who crave murder for sexual gratification are nothing but non-viril wimps! THEY ARE...ALL OF THEM! They can't even have a normal sexual urge & have it gratified without torturing another human being. These specific 4 victims in GB4 & AC4 are "4" victims for a reason. THIS SK is a Mission serial killer. The number "4" puzzled me for a bit, but everything fell in to place when it became apparent in both cases that he's a Mission Killer. He ranks himself alongside the Holy Trinity in scripture; therefore, he is the 4th God along with the Trinity. It's not that uncommon. This foul monster believes he's on a mission to cleanse his domain that he graciously shares with the Holy Trinity of sex workers. He then arranged their bodies at each of the burial sites for a reason: to see if ANY of us idiots can figure out what he's saying. It's not really that difficult when you're actually dealing with a wimp & an idiot who only THINKS he's intelligent. He's just arrogant. If it appears that I'm calling him out, then it just goes to show that you're far more intelligent than he is.

Mission:
GB4: Precisely measured, carefully wrapped in Burlap. Burlap is "sack cloth" in scripture. He was humiliating the victims by forcing them to end their lives dressed in sack cloth.
AC4: Each victim was dumped in the irrigation ditch behind the motel with each head turned to face east. I hate to disagree with the FBI profiler on this point, but this SK is not a Fetish Killer, and does not have a Foot Fetish. An SK with a foot fetish would have more likely removed the feet as a trophy in order to recall murdering them. Rather, this SK, just like in the GB4 case, was humiliating the victims by making them remove their shoes. Earlier, I posted the 3 scriptures which all say something to the point of, "Remove your shoes/sandals. For the place on which you stand is holy ground". That is why the SK removed their shoes. The SK has done exactly what many others do by twisting scripture in to his morbid, foul thinking.

Direction:
I have no decent directional clues in the GB4 case other than attempts at manipulating the numbers 500 and 4 (buried precisely 500 yds apart) & 4 bodies. This results in a direction 125 degrees ESE of the burial site. The problem is that the SK could have intended 1500 feet, rather than 500 yards...or, 5,280/1,500, or a number of different things.
The AC4 victims were all positioned with their heads (only) facing to the east. FBI profiler agreed that this is an indication of his home, but it could also be his business or killing site to which he's pointing.

I noticed that directly east from Atlantic City, but also a little south of true east, lies Bermuda. Also, 125 degrees ESE of Gilgo Beach points to Bermuda. However, the SK is so precise with measurements in the GB4 case that it's difficult to make a tight case for Bermuda being the place to which he's pointing; however, I've asked before if anyone can prove that the SK used an auto or a boat? Even if the SK lives, works, or kills in Bermuda, he could dock at the marina & drive the bodies to the burial sites. Another method would be to anchor the boat, yacht or other water vehicle, & to use a lifeboat to get to shore. I can't find enough information yet to determine which guess is valid or not. Btw, I also discovered (whether it means anything or not) that the GB4 & AC4 burial sites lie along the EXACT same international Latitudinal navigation line: to the decimal point! What that means, I don't know. It's not my expertise & I hope that you guys who are really good with Geographic Profiling might be able to uncover this monster's home, business, or killing site.

After hearing that the Daytona Beach killings also involved 4 victims, you can imagine that due to my opinions about GB4 & AC4, I was immediately interested. But, just like many of us have said, it's really difficult to get accurate information from reporter and the media. Also, the DB4 were killed in a different manner, but are possibly still part of the same Mission. I'm attempting to locate better information to determine if there's any validity to the idea of this being the same SK; however, the other alarming thing about Daytona Beach is that it fits in several other ways with the other two cases: Four victims. All 4 victims killed in the same fashion. All victims were buried very close to the water, on a beach or nearby. Fortunately with the DB4, detectives have matching DNA from every site, the same shell casings from a Smith & Wesson .40 Caliber Sigma Series VE gun, & they were all shot execution style in the back of the head, except for one victim who detectives believe fought back & then got shot in the face. The DNA & shell casings were still the same for that victim. The question is whether this is another site of "4" victims who suffered due to this madman's mission.

Who The SK IS:
I wish I knew exactly, but the description I gave in my first posts were repeated by the FBI profiler in Florida & the Daytona Beach Chief on the most recent episodes of The Killing Season. The killer is a white male around 40 to 45 years old (depending on when he became successful in his business). He's well known & well thought of. The Chief agreed on these points. He's someone nobody would suspect of being a killer. Because he's a Mission SK & because he's twisted scripture in to his warped manner of thinking, he's very likely a well liked church going citizen who would never be considered a killer. I've pinpointed a few odd businesses in Queens that are named rather oddly & are within a few miles of the GB4 burial sites; however, I wouldn't think of naming anyone of any business without evidence & proof. Nevertheless, the SK likely uses his charisma, charm, celebrity status, & personality to lure women & to make them feel safe enough to go with him (on a cruise to Bermuda?), wherever it is he lives or works or kills. Either way, he's extremely dangerous to everyone in the areas of Queens, Atlantic City, and possibly Daytona Beach...at least, wherever he stalks.

Final Thoughts:
In my church where I grew up, believe it or not, we had a paranoid schizophrenic who regularly attended our church, heard his "entities" who told him what to do, and nobody picked up on it. We were young at the time, but even the pastor & elders didn't pick up on it. I grew up with him in school. He was one of the most handsome, well-liked kids in school. He went to have pizza with all of us & often came to our homes. He murdered his father & finally hung himself in prison.

Thanks everyone, for taking the time to read my lengthy post. My apologies. I've been loquacious my entire life.
docrocker

 

[skelly52183]

Their is a string of unsolved sex workers near Pittsburgh. As many as 18 possible victims dating from the late 80's to mid 90's. Some were dismembered and most were dumped in rural areas and in different counties.

Link: http://www.heraldstandard.com/law_a...cle_726829d7-03bf-5ae6-9b54-bc8d001faf73.html

As far as Baby Doe being non-Caucasian I don't think that means Hispanic necessarily. For example people from Northern Mexico have 40-60% European admixture on average and would appear Caucasian depending on if they were mixed with Native American or African. I think the only skeleatal remains they can differentiate are black, white (including Hispanics), Pacific Islander, Aboriginal, Native American. So my guess is the Baby is African American/mixed race.

 

[Thedarkpoet]

Here is an image I have put together of the 4 AC victims and the 4GB LI victims,
because IMO they are indeed significant lookalikes, they should be compared in pairs verticaly.
(4 of the AC victims were mothers, 2 of the GB4 victims were mothers.)

Add to that that TWO young, PREGNANT, mothers, living within the very same area of Oklahoma City, have been murdered, within that last week in Oklahoma City.
AND they IDEED are significant lookalikes of 2 of the AC4 victims as well as two of the GB4 victims!

And at least one of the Oklahoma victims, Jaymie Adams, it turns out, was a providing adds on craigslist, as a prositute.
Concerning the other girl, Jessica Lynn McPherson-Brown, we dont know yet if she was connetceted to some kind of prostitution?

Newsreports state that Jessica was a mother of two young children, a daugther 2 years old, and a son 4 years old, and that she divorced her husband earlier last year, spring 2011.
She is, according to newsreports, a " reservist for the Oklahoma National Guard".
Since Jessica Lynn McPherson-Brown was pregnant, I assume the father was somone different than the father of her other two cildren, I wonder WHO?

Concerning the GB4 and the AC4 victims:
I belive it is possible that the killer, for whatever reason, wanted to kill the very same 4 woman over and over again, and therefore choose the 4 LI victims on craigslist because on craigslist he could choose his victims by looks, because the prostitues had photos of them selves on their adds.
Then he could picked his victims that looked like the 4 AC victims.

WHY would he possibly do that???
IMHO because his murder of the AC4 was VERY, VERY personal, at least towards ONE of the AC victims! victim nr 4.

The other 3 victims, who ALL 3 knew victim nr 4, he killed IMO in order to scare victim nr 4 so much as to that she would give up her life as a prostitute and drug addict, and go back home to HIM and her family and take care of her children and husband.

I belive the killer was obsessed by AC Victim nr 4...Kim Raffo.

She choose NOT to do that, and was murdered as the 4th AC victim.

I belive that the killer had now evolved into a true serial killer and continued his "Mission" on Long island.

Has he now moved to Oklahoma???

Tell me what you think?

I think we maybe looking at 3 separate victim pools here.The OKC Killer has a affinity for the younger ladies perhaps he also cruises the truck stops finding nothing there he targets these girls.

 

[GINK]

I'm sorry, I'm not trying to discount Florida and no I'm not referring to Neal Fall. I just strongly feel that the timeline supports Chillicothe being right on time as to following the seemingly end date of Long Island serial killings. And the victims are same profile of victims in AC, and Long Island. I think it is the 3rd location he has killed, It fits perfectly to me anyway, Thanks.

 

[maddalena1]

Here is an image I have put together of the 4 AC victims and the 4GB LI victims,
because IMO they are indeed significant lookalikes, they should be compared in pairs verticaly.
(4 of the AC victims were mothers, 2 of the GB4 victims were mothers.)

Add to that that TWO young, PREGNANT, mothers, living within the very same area of Oklahoma City, have been murdered, within that last week in Oklahoma City.
AND they IDEED are significant lookalikes of 2 of the AC4 victims as well as two of the GB4 victims!

And at least one of the Oklahoma victims, Jaymie Adams, it turns out, was a providing adds on craigslist, as a prositute.
Concerning the other girl, Jessica Lynn McPherson-Brown, we dont know yet if she was connetceted to some kind of prostitution?

Newsreports state that Jessica was a mother of two young children, a daugther 2 years old, and a son 4 years old, and that she divorced her husband earlier last year, spring 2011.
She is, according to newsreports, a " reservist for the Oklahoma National Guard".
Since Jessica Lynn McPherson-Brown was pregnant, I assume the father was somone different than the father of her other two cildren, I wonder WHO?

Concerning the GB4 and the AC4 victims:
I belive it is possible that the killer, for whatever reason, wanted to kill the very same 4 woman over and over again, and therefore choose the 4 LI victims on craigslist because on craigslist he could choose his victims by looks, because the prostitues had photos of them selves on their adds.
Then he could picked his victims that looked like the 4 AC victims.

WHY would he possibly do that???
IMHO because his murder of the AC4 was VERY, VERY personal, at least towards ONE of the AC victims! victim nr 4.

The other 3 victims, who ALL 3 knew victim nr 4, he killed IMO in order to scare victim nr 4 so much as to that she would give up her life as a prostitute and drug addict, and go back home to HIM and her family and take care of her children and husband.

I belive the killer was obsessed by AC Victim nr 4...Kim Raffo.

She choose NOT to do that, and was murdered as the 4th AC victim.

I belive that the killer had now evolved into a true serial killer and continued his "Mission" on Long island.

Has he now moved to Oklahoma???

Tell me what you think?

I read that a "serial killer" made an eerie post on Craigslist that he made his first kill in Tulsa and that they would not catch him because it was a stranger on stranger murder. According to the article, he said he was planning to murder again. LE wondered if was a hoax but I wonder if it's lisk? Your thoughts?

 

[maddalena1]

I found the info about Tulsa Craigslist serial killer posting on inquisador Jan 7, 2016

 

[Owutatangledweb]

Has anyone wondered or found connection between LISK and the murders in chilicothe Ohio?

Somewhere in that thread months ago, there was a poster who seemed very convinced of a connection. I don't recall much about the post except thinking at the time that it was a little "out there" in terms of the emphatic nature of the post.

 

[Super Sleuth]

I found the info about Tulsa Craigslist serial killer posting on inquisador Jan 7, 2016

Here's a news article on that: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...3GnxkvhLz5ik6NWIA&sig2=OP7hW8LnZ6iG_Ul838EDrQ

 

[kat913]

I know the police are investigating but I wouldn't be so quick to say "it's a hoax...we don't have any stranger-stranger homicides"...would that mean that every homicide (no year was provided) has been solved? I would rather believe there is some truth to it even if it was a sick game. Hopefully they will be able to locate who this may be and if it is a hoax...please flag this person as a potential problem.

 

[dc20015]

I know the police are investigating but I wouldn't be so quick to say "it's a hoax...we don't have any stranger-stranger homicides"...would that mean that every homicide (no year was provided) has been solved? I would rather believe there is some truth to it even if it was a sick game. Hopefully they will be able to locate who this may be and if it is a hoax...please flag this person as a potential problem.

It smells of bs but I also doubt a city the size of Tulsa has no unsolved homicides and if they're unsolved how do you know if they knew each other or not?


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[Lala Martinez]

Just a theory I have, I think this is one killers that changes his MO (strangulation/asphyxiation, shooting, dismemberment/mutilation of some, not all). I believe he is not tied down (no wife/kids), or is a long haul trucker, or does other work involving traveling. I believe he's killed in many states and is still at it, that's why there is a rash of women murdered in a specific area and then it stops suddenly, because he's moved on. I am wondering if he's responsible for the women that have been murdered or disappeared from Chillicothe, Ohio, (there was also a docuseries about these women on A&E over the summer I think. Anyhow in this case there have been 4 women's bodies recovered, 2 are still missing they were found in or near bodies of water, they were all one sex trade profession and had addiction issues. The disappearance of these women where within a year and then suddenly stopped like in the case of the GB4 & AC4. There are a lot of similarities here that maybe should be looked into. Is it possible we have a serial killer traveling the US hunting his victims???

 

[mst]

Do you think the position of the bodies in both LI and AC was to make the women look at the locations where they committed their "sins"? The AC women forced to look towards the city where they worked and the LI women forced in death to look at the highway where they once traveled back and forth to different john's.

 

[NY Ranger Fan]

I doubt the is a connection between the GB4 and other cases. Serial killers are territorial and stick to one area, although Bundy was sure an anomaly. There is however a lot of copy cat killers on the loose.

Serial killers study other serial killers. The day of the internet as well as many publications make it easy to do. Some copy out of homage to a killer them admire, others may copy to shift the blame to someone else.

 

[dc20015]

I doubt the is a connection between the GB4 and other cases. Serial killers are territorial and stick to one area, although Bundy was sure an anomaly. There is however a lot of copy cat killers on the loose.

Serial killers study other serial killers. The day of the internet as well as many publications make it easy to do. Some copy out of homage to a killer them admire, others may copy to shift the blame to someone else.

Mm some stay local and some travel. And some nonlocal cases are never connected because they are not local and the killers don't confess for a variety of reasons not the least because they are habitual liars. Yes they probably wish they could stay at home and kill there forever but they know there's more of a chance of getting caught. I do think it can be even more exciting for a killer to know he's marked territory for hundreds of miles.


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[NY Ranger Fan]

Mm some stay local and some travel. And some nonlocal cases are never connected because they are not local and the killers don't confess for a variety of reasons not the least because they are habitual liars. Yes they probably wish they could stay at home and kill there forever but they know there's more of a chance of getting caught. I do think it can be even more exciting for a killer to know he's marked territory for hundreds of miles.

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One of the GB4 went missing in 2007, another in 2009 and two in 2010 a few months apart. All were in June, July and September, all within the 1st 9 days of the month. Is there something significant about the early part of the month? Maybe the killer's wife goes out of town on business on a regular schedule. Maybe the killer gets a disability check (possibly retired?) and is flush with money early in the month.

The proximity to the desolate beach location makes it different to me than others around the country. It is quite out of the way for someone to drive from NYC with a body on board. Also a risk from any other place that is miles away on LI.

For a non-local the location would be way out of the box. If it were a trucker they are prohibited from driving the rigs that far south on the parkway system, local delivery only. A semi would get pulled over by the police. Unless he rented a car for his side trips.

 

[Salsa]

One of the GB4 went missing in 2007, another in 2009 and two in 2010 a few months apart. All were in June, July and September, all within the 1st 9 days of the month. Is there something significant about the early part of the month? Maybe the killer's wife goes out of town on business on a regular schedule. Maybe the killer gets a disability check (possibly retired?) and is flush with money early in the month.

The proximity to the desolate beach location makes it different to me than others around the country. It is quite out of the way for someone to drive from NYC with a body on board. Also a risk from any other place that is miles away on LI.

For a non-local the location would be way out of the box. If it were a trucker they are prohibited from driving the rigs that far south on the parkway system, local delivery only. A semi would get pulled over by the police. Unless he rented a car for his side trips.

Your are right with the proximity. How unlucky can a guy be to have a call girl he picked from Craigslist running out his house screaming he was going to kill her and dying a few miles from graves of call girls beckoned from Craiglist and killed too?

 

[NY Ranger Fan]

Your are right with the proximity. How unlucky can a guy be to have a call girl he picked from Craigslist running out his house screaming he was going to kill her and dying a few miles from graves of call girls beckoned from Craiglist and killed too?

Too much of a coincidence to be anything else. But a coincidence will not get you arrested. Unfortunately the killings may resume before a suspect is caught. I'm sure whoever the person(s) is, they're thinking about the next one.

Anything that invokes a thrill is addictive. The junkie's next fix, the race car driver's next race. The scuba diver's next dive. The vacationer's next vacation. As long as we are alive, we all dream of some sort of next.

 

[IndieCindy]

Here is the readily available online newstory that identifies the targeted person. I haven't watched all of the killing season episodes but I believe he was in the episode about the motel.
MAYS LANDING, N.J., June 8 — A man who stayed at a motel on the outskirts of Atlantic City shortly before four prostitutes were found dead there agreed on Friday to submit to DNA tests.The man, Terry Oleson, 35, of Salem County, who has been in jail on an unrelated charge — invasion of privacy in connection with videotaping a naked 15-year-old girl — agreed to the testing during a hearing in State Superior Court here.

Link to above, added by shadowraiths: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/09/nyregion/09prostitute.html

 

[IndieCindy]

I have been looking into a different lead. Let you know what I find. I will not share any names unless they are already out in the ether in printed news stories etc.