Post Conviction Brief

[BigCityAccountant]

So page 75 was missing yesterday from the brief, I see that KZ's people have added it today LOL

Jaiddie... you will appreciate this, it's about the bones and burn pit/barrels!

Dr. DeHaan has expressed, to a reasonable degree of scientific certainty based upon his
expertise in the area of fire and fire debris examination) the following opinions:
a. "The documentation, examination, and recovery of the remains at the A very scene
were all below acceptable professional standards of practice. A properly
conducted recovery would have involved more comprehensive photography of the
burned bones in the ''burn pit" and better documentation as to from where and
when all bones were recovered. It is my opinion that someone better qualified to
recover potential human remains should have been summoned to perform this
excavation. There were incomplete and confusing descriptions of where various
possible "burn barrels" were located and incomplete numbering and chain of
custody."8 (Affidavit of Dr. DeHaan, P-C Group Exhibit 37, ,r 16).



and it continues... on the pages afterwards. Everything that we have discussed over the months! According to the brief, Dr. DeHaan's info was found in an old trial folder, but the defense never called him to testify.

An interesting footnote on page 75 as well:

8 Bone fragments could not have actually been located in burn barrel no. two because this barrel had
already been sifted by WSCL personnel on November 7, and no human bone fragments were discovered
in this barrel or any of the barrels examined at that time. (STATE 1_1841-43). During their examination
of barrel no. two on November 7, 2005, WSCL personnel used the same sifting apparatus that they later
used to sift the burn pit behind Mr. Avery's garage. (TT:2/ 19: 108). Suspiciously, the pieces of burned
bone that were eventually found in barrel no. two were noticeably larger than the bone fragments from the
burn pit. (TT:3/7:37-38). rf bone fragments had been in burn barrel no. two when it was examined by
Mr. Ertl and his team from the WSCL on November 7, 2005, the bone fragments would have been
isolated by their sifting apparatus.

I still say they were added or the barrels were exchanged out when they stopped at the NORTH I-43 ramp on their way to CASO.

 

[BigCityAccountant]

RH was working too closely with officials...(and MH I might add.), for there not to be more to this than we are getting. I would love to have a "crime scene" but we don't. I still think TH is dead, (for a reason we don't understand.), but she was not murdered at at her home. imo.

Cadaver dogs hit on the shallow grave ect... so yes. I believe she is dead, but I have no idea HOW she died. ( But someone does, a lot of "someones" imo. I think SA was under "unofficial surveillance" this whole time period, and everyone involved knows he didn't kill TH.

That interview RH and MH gave to the press was one of the shadiest things I've ever seen....They both looked like cats that just ate the canary... Rh's scratched up hands, never questioned at all, no alibi given or asked for, from the victims ex...

Something huge is seriously being covered up...

I have to agree Safeguard. I'm not buying that she was killed at home. I believe if RH is the killer, that he buried her in the shallow grave on JR's property. I believe he then took her to a different location to burn her. Remember she was burned on November 4th in an aluminum smelter in the Green Bay letter??? Maybe there is some truth to that letter????

 

[BigCityAccountant]

I have to admit I was pretty underwhelmed by the brief itself. I wanted a smoking gun and because I didn't get it I'm being a baby. Hopefully the next 1000 pages will make me feel better.

I do feel however there is enough there to possibly grant SA a new trial, but in no way to I feel its enough to fully exonerate him which is what I was expecting I guess.

Parts I had problems with - RH going into the trailer to get sink blood, not sure even why that was in there it just seems like a stretch to me.
And the brain fingerprinting I think is just hokey. Everything I'm reading about it just seems like there isn't enough peer reviewed studies to prove it, at least not yet.
The bullet was proved to be shot in SA garage which I find that somewhat troubling even though there was a reason given.
Toothbrush missing is just SA word no real evidence.

Those are just a few that stand out right now after reading it last night.

I'm with you LaneGirl. I was hoping for a full exoneration not a new trial. Not sure if you know the area or not, but I have a cabin not too far from there. My neighbors had someone come into there house during the middle of the night when they were sleeping and robbed them. People still leave their keys in their cars without worrying the car is going to get stolen.

So, I can buy that RH went into SA's trailer. RH was watching the news and he knew that SA had that cut on his hand.

Missy~~do you recall what day SA did that interview with the TV station that night??

RH could have been looking to plant some other type of evidence pointing to SA. A knife or some other personal belonging perhaps?

The bullet DOESN'T have bone fragments~~that is HUGE. It means that particular "bullet" was not the bullet that killed her.

Something that comes to mind~~CHECKADUHID~~Could that mean RH sold a 22 and KZ found the ad?

So many questions, so little answers.

We got more info now~~but with that comes more questions.

 

[BigCityAccountant]

The appellate attorney, I think, does get access to all the evidence. Even evidence not presented at trial. I could be wrong, but how would they be effective, if they couldn't see all aspects of the investigation?

That's an interesting point about the bullet and the paint. That bullet evidence, for me, is almost a smoking gun. If someone planted Theresa's blood or I guess DNA on the bullet--where did they get that from? She wasn't officially found until after her body had been burned. So this could be pretty big.

What I keep hoping for is for some connection, no matter how distant, between someone in the Manitwoc Sherriff's office, and HR.

I have to agree Gracie and Welcome if I haven't officially welcomed you to our group.

:welcome4:

They had access to TH's doctors and her pap smear. I would imagine if they can trace the DNA back to that pap smear, then game over. I recall KZ saying that it would show what type of DNA they had found when discussing SA's blood in the Rav4, so I'm guessing they have worked or are working on determining the source of DNA on the bullet.

 

[Jaiddie]

http://fox6now.com/2017/06/08/prosecutors-no-merit-to-making-a-murderer-trial-request/

'Prosecutor, Author Calls Avery's Attorney's Naming of Halbach's Ex as Alternate Suspect "Ridiculous"'

Well,looks like the other famous Avery author, MG, has now weighed in as well,and it is no surprise that its just more of the party line heard from them in the past when they try to defend their actions in that investigation.

"A willingness to take down,not just police, but at this point,a victim's reputation and family as well,as the new person that Ms.Zellner has seen fit to accuse of murdering his very good friend who died this horrendous,horrific death." Griesbach said."
:bored:

I wonder which horrific death he is referring to here? Shot in the garage or stabbed and strangled in the trailer? Sadly,I guess either worked for them then as the two men have been in prison ever since,but I am soooo curious to see how this all plays out. While some of the info contained in the motion I found hard to wrap my head around (namely the extreme luck that RH was able to be able to break into SA trailer at the perfect time to find blood that SA conveniently forgot to clean up), IMO, that motion still contains MORE than enough to be ruled to require a retrial,I would think. In which case,when that day comes, the state is going to be in TREMENDOUS trouble. Not only will KZ get access to ALL the evidence for her experts to test,but can you imagine how she will crucify the state's agents once she can get them on the witness stand? :worms:Gives me goosebumps just to think about it.
All JMO, of course.

 

[BigCityAccountant]

Hi Jaddie! :seeya:

Was just coming to post the same thing...

[h=1]Making a Murderer': Wisconsin DOJ Calls Kathleen Zellner’s Motion ‘Ridiculous,’ ‘Without Merit[/h]http://www.thewrap.com/making-a-murderer-wisconsin-doj-kathleen-zellner-motion/

 

[htiff]

I have to agree Gracie and Welcome if I haven't officially welcomed you to our group.

:welcome4:




They had access to TH's doctors and her pap smear. I would imagine if they can trace the DNA back to that pap smear, then game over. I recall KZ saying that it would show what type of DNA they had found when discussing SA's blood in the Rav4, so I'm guessing they have worked or are working on determining the source of DNA on the bullet.

THANK YOU!!!!

It could be a pap smear, or it could be that Theresa's toothbrush also went missing. The other thought is that if HR did, in deed, kill Theresa (I'm not convinced of this, but for the sake of argument...) if HR did this, he might have had Theresa's blood on some object he retained after the killing, and he used this to plant the DNA.

It all is so sordid. And in truth, Zellner's version of events feels almost as crazy as Kratz's, but it does make way to a number of intriguing alternative theories of the crime.

 

[Safeguard]

Ok so... Although KZ's brief didn't deliver the results, that her build up lead us to believe it would contain, complete exoneration is unlikely, lets be real. She also made made the claim, more than once, that she would deliver the real killer. Suggesting a possible alternative suspect, (yes I know...Denny...), is not quite the same thing. The carbon testing, and so much more, just weren't in there.

So yeah, after all this time, I was a bit disappointed. But...

At least we do have REAL PROOF of so many things that we have all known! How many times have "the others" kicked and screamed, "There is NO proof of any planting!" :tantrum: ( the PLANTING was real GUILTERS! HA! ). It will be awful quiet on the "For those who don't think evidence was planted" thread, I'll bet! :great:

( Not that it was all that active anyhow, do to the inability to consider perspectives other than their own. heh).

And at long last, we do have some forward movement! Some of the pieces are there, and although we are, sadly, no closer to learning what really did happen to TH, we have learned more, about the crooked, shady players in this case, with more to come I'm thinking.

 

[Safeguard]

http://fox6now.com/2017/06/08/prosecutors-no-merit-to-making-a-murderer-trial-request/

'Prosecutor, Author Calls Avery's Attorney's Naming of Halbach's Ex as Alternate Suspect "Ridiculous"'

Well,looks like the other famous Avery author, MG, has now weighed in as well,and it is no surprise that its just more of the party line heard from them in the past when they try to defend their actions in that investigation.

"A willingness to take down,not just police, but at this point,a victim's reputation and family as well,as the new person that Ms.Zellner has seen fit to accuse of murdering his very good friend who died this horrendous,horrific death." Griesbach said."
:bored:

I wonder which horrific death he is referring to here? Shot in the garage or stabbed and strangled in the trailer? Sadly,I guess either worked for them then as the two men have been in prison ever since,but I am soooo curious to see how this all plays out. While some of the info contained in the motion I found hard to wrap my head around (namely the extreme luck that RH was able to be able to break into SA trailer at the perfect time to find blood that SA conveniently forgot to clean up), IMO, that motion still contains MORE than enough to be ruled to require a retrial,I would think. In which case,when that day comes, the state is going to be in TREMENDOUS trouble. Not only will KZ get access to ALL the evidence for her experts to test,but can you imagine how she will crucify the state's agents once she can get them on the witness stand? :worms:Gives me goosebumps just to think about it.
All JMO, of course.

bbm

There should absolutely be a "willingness to take down" anyone guilty, LE included! It is this persistent belief that many hold, "never question authority"! LE should be held in the highest regard as if they are indeed above the law, that allows them to get away with murder... "these are good decent family men how dare you try and besmirch their pristine reputations" and the like, as if ALL LE everywhere are by nature of the job, simply incapable of crime & corruption. This is a tough site to hold that truth up on, but it is the truth. Not jmo.

Agree also Jaddie, How can he even say TH died this, "horrendous,horrific death" when we have no idea how she died, if it was instantaneous, or prolonged. ( Although I do believe they know how TH died and who killed her , so we can at least hope they say something that might accidentally expose some little thing. So I will pay attention however distasteful.

Jaddie LOL! "I found hard to wrap my head around (namely the extreme luck that RH was able to be able to break into SA trailer at the perfect time to find blood that SA conveniently forgot to clean up"
:yeahthat:

 

[CoolJ]

I have a feeling there is a massive game of chess being played behind the scenes right now. JMO

 

[Karinna]

Hi all & Thankyou to everyone posting up all the info. on Ms. Zellners post conviction brief. Haven't read it all yet, but wow.
I also think most of us guessed by all that has happened in this case that something nefarious was underfoot.
My guess with the blood evidence in the Rav4 was that somehow SA's blood was from the cut on his finger, and with such a deep cut it would of bled profusely as those things do. I was thinking someone got it from where SA tried to clean it up in his bathroom, but was thinking more along the lines of from paper towel or tissues he could of disposed of in his bathroom? Not directly from the sink. Whoever did that could of added a little bit of water to it to liquefy it to plant it without diluting it too much? I wouldn't have thought it to be directly from inside the sink.
RH being the culprit is really no surprise i don't think. He had been dating and with TH for a few years, so was pretty close to her, and in a lot of murder cases i have followed it is usually someone closest to the victim.
Interesting KZ's witness giving her information too, and she has stated previously about a very reliable witness she has been working with. Will be so interesting to see the brief in its totality, and how all of it will pan out in any future proceedings.

 

[BigCityAccountant]

I think this is why KZ named RH as a suspect and set-out to prove it via the evidence she presented.

Instead, the prior post-conviction attorneys argued that the defense should not have been barred from arguing that a third party was responsible for the crimes charged. The trial defense counsel had not identified a specific perpetrator. Instead, they argued that Mr. Avery's family members were potential suspects, as were customers of the Avery Salvage Yard. Those unnamed suspects, according to the trial attorneys, had the same opportunity as Mr. A very had to commit the crime. The prosecution argued that State v. Denny, 120 Wis. 2d 614,357 N.W.2d 12 (Ct.App.1984) set forth the test to be applied. The trial court agreed, and barred the evidence.

Pursuant to Denny, a defendant must show motive, opportunity and additional evidence to directly connect a third person to the crime charged which is not remote in time, place or circumstances. Id. at 120 Wis. 2d at 623-24, 357 N.W.2d 12

 

[BigCityAccountant]

I have a feeling there is a massive game of chess being played behind the scenes right now. JMO

I have a feeling you are right~~Except I don't think it is chess~~its WAR. Let them chase their tails on the brain fingerprinting all the while preparing for something entirely different.

 

[missy1974]

The appellate attorney, I think, does get access to all the evidence. Even evidence not presented at trial. I could be wrong, but how would they be effective, if they couldn't see all aspects of the investigation?

That's an interesting point about the bullet and the paint. That bullet evidence, for me, is almost a smoking gun. If someone planted Theresa's blood or I guess DNA on the bullet--where did they get that from? She wasn't officially found until after her body had been burned. So this could be pretty big.

What I keep hoping for is for some connection, no matter how distant, between someone in the Manitwoc Sherriff's office, and HR.

At this point, she does not have access to all the evidence, if she did, she never would have had to file the motion for scientific testing back in August. She asked for a whole list of evidence, and she got very little, and apparently the blood she did receive was not enough for the age testing.

 

[missy1974]

Anyone think that this wait for the other 1000 pages is by design?

Yes. The State gets to respond, and then KZ gets to reply.

 

[missy1974]

I still say they were added or the barrels were exchanged out when they stopped at the NORTH I-43 ramp on their way to CASO.

Could be! I want to see those exhibits!!! LOL Note that after what I bolded it has ... STATE 1_1841-43 << that has to be a State document no? What does that say? the CASO report says something along the lines of they started on barrel #2 and were called away... I want to see what State Crime report has to say.

 

[missy1974]

I have to agree Safeguard. I'm not buying that she was killed at home. I believe if RH is the killer, that he buried her in the shallow grave on JR's property. I believe he then took her to a different location to burn her. Remember she was burned on November 4th in an aluminum smelter in the Green Bay letter??? Maybe there is some truth to that letter????

so wait... maybe he followed her that day? I will have to go back to the brief to see what time his phone was inactive that day.

Voice in the back of my head playing RH's testimony... knowing the phone coverage was bad out there when sending Pam to ASY.

 

[missy1974]

I'm with you LaneGirl. I was hoping for a full exoneration not a new trial. Not sure if you know the area or not, but I have a cabin not too far from there. My neighbors had someone come into there house during the middle of the night when they were sleeping and robbed them. People still leave their keys in their cars without worrying the car is going to get stolen.

So, I can buy that RH went into SA's trailer. RH was watching the news and he knew that SA had that cut on his hand.

Missy~~do you recall what day SA did that interview with the TV station that night??

RH could have been looking to plant some other type of evidence pointing to SA. A knife or some other personal belonging perhaps?

The bullet DOESN'T have bone fragments~~that is HUGE. It means that particular "bullet" was not the bullet that killed her.

Something that comes to mind~~CHECKADUHID~~Could that mean RH sold a 22 and KZ found the ad?

So many questions, so little answers.

We got more info now~~but with that comes more questions.

SA started doing interviews November 4th IIRC. Ryan would have known about SA at the latest on the 3rd. But if he had anything to do with it on the 31st, he easily could have known either from TH telling him about just being there, or from her paperwork. Kill her...look to see where she went that day... see's "Avery" and see's an opportunity. <<< this applies to anyone that could have killed her IMO, her paperwork would have stated names/addresses.

 

[BigCityAccountant]

so wait... maybe he followed her that day? I will have to go back to the brief to see what time his phone was inactive that day.

Voice in the back of my head playing RH's testimony... knowing the phone coverage was bad out there when sending Pam to ASY.

EXACTLY~~~HOW did he know this~~UNLESS~~he was there!!!!

 

[BigCityAccountant]

SA started doing interviews November 4th IIRC. Ryan would have known about SA at the latest on the 3rd. But if he had anything to do with it on the 31st, he easily could have known either from TH telling him about just being there, or from her paperwork. Kill her...look to see where she went that day... see's "Avery" and see's an opportunity. <<< this applies to anyone that could have killed her IMO, her paperwork would have stated names/addresses.

Thank you!

BINGO!!!

Now to get into his house and get something to tie SA to the crime. Remember~~SA said~~he NEVER locked his doors.