Post sentencing discussion and the upcoming appeal
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Cherwell
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Yes, I remember. I think I made the point about taking off the suit then, too, but IIRC the discussion moved on and no one else commented.
I think the problem with all these things is that the threads become so long (well, during the trial anyway) all these key things get buried in amongst them. Isn't there a dedicated thread somewhere, where all these specific points (discrepancies in testimonies, etc) can be listed, just so as people can see them all at a glance and so that they are all kept together in a place where they can be easily referenced?
* a stickied one would be good/useful, just for posting specific points (with no discussion).
L2L
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Thank you so much! I alternate constantly between this website and Juror13's!
L2L
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Very likely been spotted before, but just in case ......
Reading the transcript, provided by Mr Fossil, (thank you!) of Oscar's cross by Nel : having had the meaning of 'tampered' explained to him and then being asked what had been changed on the screen, Oscar argued....
---
My
Lady,
we can go through the photo files and I can
show you many things that we
changed
Typo error for "were" or Freudian slip?
Reading that transcript over and over makes sense for me of a lot of things that didn't previously! Also leaves me gobsmacked at Masipa's judgement!
Reading the transcript, provided by Mr Fossil, (thank you!) of Oscar's cross by Nel : having had the meaning of 'tampered' explained to him and then being asked what had been changed on the screen, Oscar argued....
---
My
Lady,
we can go through the photo files and I can
show you many things that we
changed
Typo error for "were" or Freudian slip?
Reading that transcript over and over makes sense for me of a lot of things that didn't previously! Also leaves me gobsmacked at Masipa's judgement!
Unfortunately the official transcript is full of errors, even key points are missed and shown as being 'indistinct' or 'no audio'. Always worth checking a point like this on Youtube. I suspect it's a typo or misheard.
ETA: Just checked: he says "were".
The quality of the transcript is really quite poor at times. For instance, where you read just before your excerpt "It is with intention changing. What was changed on it?", what was actually said was, "It is with intention changing things. What was changed on the scene?". Not important in this instance but more important elsewhere.
Here's an example of the indistinct / no audio problem: But then you are lying. Then that other fan was never plugged in there or on, or used that day. --- My Lady, I can simply say I remember [No audio 14:41:41] both of the plugs being plugged in there, if I am not [indistinct] the one plug is [indistinct] another [indistinct] that [indistinct]
JudgeJudi
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OP is now under investigation for allegedly breaking jail rules on his birthday.
The Department of Correctional Services yesterday confirmed it would investigate how Aimee and Carl were allegedly allowed to bring a cake, balloons and gift bag into the prison and why their cars were allegedly not searched when they entered the prison grounds.
They used an alternative entrance to avoid photographers.
A Department spokesman said, "The allegations will be investigated and persons found guilty will be dealt with. Prison officials insisted he "is not receiving preferential treatment". The spokesman declined to comment on whether OP would face any charges for the incident or what potential punishment he faced.
http://www.timeslive.co.za/thetimes/2014/11/24/oscar-s-prison-birthday-bash-to-be-probed
Well, wont this be interesting. Little Miss Goody Two Shoes tweeted 23 hours ago:
1/5 I am dumbfounded at the false and irresponsible reporting in some newspapers today.
2/5 Facts: Carl & I had a 45 minute non-contact visit with Oscar yesterday as all our visits have been non-contact thus far, per regulations.
3/5 My brother received NOTHING that was not allowed by prison regulations for group B prisoners. No cake or perishables present at all
4/5 In fact, he only received toiletries and letters on his birthday and we took some balloons to SHOW him through the glass divider
5/5 We are respectful of the rules. The correctional officers have been courteous but stern - as their position requires.
Im really looking forward to the results of this investigation.
The Department of Correctional Services yesterday confirmed it would investigate how Aimee and Carl were allegedly allowed to bring a cake, balloons and gift bag into the prison and why their cars were allegedly not searched when they entered the prison grounds.
They used an alternative entrance to avoid photographers.
A Department spokesman said, "The allegations will be investigated and persons found guilty will be dealt with. Prison officials insisted he "is not receiving preferential treatment". The spokesman declined to comment on whether OP would face any charges for the incident or what potential punishment he faced.
http://www.timeslive.co.za/thetimes/2014/11/24/oscar-s-prison-birthday-bash-to-be-probed
Well, wont this be interesting. Little Miss Goody Two Shoes tweeted 23 hours ago:
1/5 I am dumbfounded at the false and irresponsible reporting in some newspapers today.
2/5 Facts: Carl & I had a 45 minute non-contact visit with Oscar yesterday as all our visits have been non-contact thus far, per regulations.
3/5 My brother received NOTHING that was not allowed by prison regulations for group B prisoners. No cake or perishables present at all
4/5 In fact, he only received toiletries and letters on his birthday and we took some balloons to SHOW him through the glass divider
5/5 We are respectful of the rules. The correctional officers have been courteous but stern - as their position requires.
Im really looking forward to the results of this investigation.
I'd be surprised if he was given special treatment with so much focus on him and even more so on his birthday. It would be suicidal madness on the part of anyone involved so it doesn't make sense to me. They're only allegations and, quite rightly, are to be investigated. But I don't put a lot of faith in newspapers and, in this instance, I'm inclined to believe Aimee, as I said yesterday. We'll have to see how this unfolds but it all helps sell papers!
JudgeJudi
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I've never seen such a poor transcript in my entire life and I've seen thousands. Each question and answer should be on a new line prefaced with the initials of the person speaking. When I last read it, from time to time I found myself having to concentrate on who was doing the talking.
If this is the quality of what Nel and Roux merely refer to in their arguments by page and line numbers, heaven help anyone on the bench as I doubt they're going to dig out a recording to check things. That said, I suspect Nel and Roux would check the transcript for accuracy if they were referring to it.
It seems the house style here is to use '---' to preface an answer which, as you say, becomes very unclear.
Worse still is the transcriber recording what they feel is the sense of what is being said rather than the actual words!
Thankfully we have Youtube and the other recordings to check things against but I would have hoped for something more accurate as a transcript. I wonder if the use of English in court hasn't helped?
JudgeJudi
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I read your post yesterday Mr Fossil, but let's face it, he has had special treatment from the word go.
1. He wasn't handcuffed when he was arrested.
2. He was in a single cell at the police station.
2. His family were given special visitation rights while he was there.
3. He was only a day patient at Weskoppies.
4. After being sentenced he wasn't handcuffed before entering the police vehicle to go to prison.
I'm sure there are others as well. After seeing the privileges given to the Waterkloof 4 by the prison guards, why wouldn't OP get them as well. The guards would hardly spill the beans but there are others who will, and given time, I'm sure this won't be the last we hear of his special privileges. After all, he's THE Oscar Pistorius. The Waterkloof 4 weren't special. They just happened to come from well off families. Nothing, absolutely nothing would surprise me any more.
Agreed.
JudgeJudi
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O/T but on the subject of domestic violence, I was shocked, gobsmacked and horrified at this.
Barry Bateman @barrybateman · 4h 4 hours ago
Wow. No words. Ugandan nanny abuses child on hidden camera. She deserves life in prison. Nothing less. http://www.timeslive.co.za/africa/2014/11/24/watch-nanny-exposed-abusing-toddler-on-hidden-camera1
Barry Bateman @barrybateman · 4h 4 hours ago
Wow. No words. Ugandan nanny abuses child on hidden camera. She deserves life in prison. Nothing less. http://www.timeslive.co.za/africa/2014/11/24/watch-nanny-exposed-abusing-toddler-on-hidden-camera1
OMG that made me feel sick. Horrible.
.. blimey, I reckon I could've done a better job than that (I'm a fairly fast audio typist, or rather I used to be but can still do it if need be) .. I need to get me a job in a South African court! On second thoughts, I think I'd rather give it a miss ..!
RSBM
I've been running through OP's 'final' version from the moment he woke until the moment he shot Reeva, but also seen from Reeva's point of view if she's following his script, trying to imagine why each part of the story exists or was added or changed. Of course, none of this is what actually happened IMO.
It starts with Reeva talking to him, establishing that she is in bed. Ok.
I can accept that Reeva got out of bed and went to the bathroom unseen and without saying anything whilst OP fetched the fans in, keeping his back at all times to the bed. Assuming she was sleeping on the right hand side (looking at the bed), she would have needed to get out at the bottom or on his side with all the clutter he has on that side of the bed, not forgetting his prostheses which aren't shown in the photos in situ. Let's also accept she took her phone with her for some reason (which we'll assume she picked up off the bedside table on the right).
I believe OP added the extra fan because moving one fan simply doesn't allow enough time for Reeva to get to the bathroom unnoticed if he isn't to go on to the balcony. I think he ditched going on to the balcony (he tells us this in two different ways in his bail affidavit so it was his story at the time) simply because he realised it would entail him opening the curtains, blinds and doors wider to get around the fan, filling the room with light, and turning to face the bed when he walked back in - why else would he have gone on to the balcony other than to get to the other side of the fan (perhaps the more logical side to carry it from)?
I think the fans are on in his version so that he doesn't hear Reeva get out of bed. Interestingly we never learn when the fans are plugged in or switched on. Of course, in reality they weren't on because they weren't found on but we see OP reinforcing the idea that they were on repeatedly in his story: he wakes and "noticed that the fans were still running" (why say that when they're supposed to be? He also notices the doors are still open - through the closed curtain, in the dark). He moves the fans and tells us again "the fans were still running, they were still running at the time". He needs them to be on.
Ignoring the balcony light that must have been partially illuminating the room at times during this process (he keeps telling us he closes the curtains) ...
He now has a problem. When Reeva opens the bathroom window he wouldn't hear this with the second larger fan blowing in his face. He can't have got back to bed or he'd have checked the bed and known she wasn't in it. So he pauses to put the jeans over the blue LED and at this stage hears the window sliding open and hitting the frame (more reinforcement). I think this is why the blue LED features. No other reason. Not because of the light disturbing him: it was probably in this state on many nights and something he would be familiar with. I included this in a previous post as part of him buying time, which was incorrect. It doesn't because she has to have cleared the bedroom passageway by the time he is facing the stereo (the passageway is now to his right). It's simply so that he can hear the window open. Why the jeans are on the floor is another story.
But why does Reeva open the bathroom window? If it's stuffy / humid and she's going to the toilet why not open the toilet window? We'll have to accept that she does open it and must also assume that she intends to close it after she's been to the toilet so as not to freak security conscious OP out.
Now I need to come up with an approximate elapsed time for him to fetch his gun, whisper, scream, shout etc. as he makes his way down the passageway to the bathroom and hears the toilet door shut. And then explain what Reeva is doing in this elapsed time and, if she flushes the toilet, why OP doesn't hear it. She knows there's no one in the passageway and bathroom because she's just walked through them. Assuming she's figured there's an intruder (when exactly does OP shout to get out of his house?), she must think he/they are downstairs or he's seen them from the balcony window ... so why doesn't she call the police when he shouts for her to? Why doesn't she talk to OP?
OP wants us to believe that she's scared (she has had a similar experience in the past), and she doesn't know where the intruder is, hence stays quiet.
It gets trickier so I'll work on this whilst taking on board any views.
Related my previous post but without cluttering it up.
It would have been convenient if Reeva's phone hadn't been found by OP in the toilet because he wouldn't have had to answer the question as to why she didn't call the police. Some say it wasn't and was placed there but this doesn't make sense to me. I think it was, simply because I think Reeva saying she's calling someone was the trigger for him shooting her and he doesn't know whether she managed to connect to the police (or security - he covers both options: "Again I screamed for Reeva to phone the police or the security").
He's probably sure she hasn't spoken to anyone because he doesn't hear her talking and there isn't time before he shoots. But when he gets to her phone he can't get through the Passcode so he can't check if the call connected (and disconnected when she dropped the phone) and, if so, what may therefore have been overheard by whoever she called. This also means what follows the shooting until he gets to the phone and sees the Passcode must be broadly as he states.
It would have been convenient if Reeva's phone hadn't been found by OP in the toilet because he wouldn't have had to answer the question as to why she didn't call the police. Some say it wasn't and was placed there but this doesn't make sense to me. I think it was, simply because I think Reeva saying she's calling someone was the trigger for him shooting her and he doesn't know whether she managed to connect to the police (or security - he covers both options: "Again I screamed for Reeva to phone the police or the security").
He's probably sure she hasn't spoken to anyone because he doesn't hear her talking and there isn't time before he shoots. But when he gets to her phone he can't get through the Passcode so he can't check if the call connected (and disconnected when she dropped the phone) and, if so, what may therefore have been overheard by whoever she called. This also means what follows the shooting until he gets to the phone and sees the Passcode must be broadly as he states.
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