Post sentencing discussion and the upcoming appeal

[Mr Fossil]

http://geraldboardman.wordpress.com/2014/11/21/oscar-pistorius-what-really-happened/

So it’s impossible that she was still alive and that blood spatters could have gotten on the wall etc, when he took her down when the neighbours saw him. When he shot her, the door was open and he pulled her out. He took her downstairs alive causing blood squirts. She died downstairs and then he took her back upstairs. He then re-enacted everything and walked downstairs with Reeva as if it were the first time.


Another opinion and version, interesting.

It makes an interesting read, as you say, but it's implausible IMO and makes statements of fact which I don't recognise. Nevertheless I always read these things because they make you think outside the box and, as a result, other ideas materialise.

 

[Estelle]

BBM .. no, what I mean is that you posted it on the internet .. and how can anyone just take something that someone has said on the internet at face value? Most of us on here don't know each other from Adam, and anyone could say anything .. and that's exactly what people do on the internet. You can't actually say for a fact that something happened unless you have proof to back it up with.

Well it sounds like you do not trust me.

 

[Estelle]

BBM .. it's not nit-picking .. it's that all this type of stuff is just hearsay and rumour with nothing to substantiate that it actually happened. I thought this was supposed to be a sluething forum using actual fact .. there is no point if people are just going to say any old thing. As I said before, someone on here previously said that they knew someone, who knew someone else, who knew someone else (I'm exaggerating a bit here) who lived near to Arnold Pistorius and that because of that, they were able to tell us various 'goings on'. Sorry, but I can't take all that kind of thing as serious fact .. it may well be true, it may not be, but without anything to substantiate it then I don't believe these types of things should be taken into consideration because people can and do say stuff on the internet which isn't actually true.

Well just take it at face value or as a rumour. It is not a deal breaker and I tend to believe it and the lady who told me. I am usually able to determine whether people are telling the truth as I used to teach body language in my communication courses. I watched her reaction when I said I post on a forum and if it is true, others would like to know this so I hope you are telling the truth as I was sceptical too. She assured me it was the truth.

 

[Estelle]

Hi Estelle, yes the only reason I replied to your post was because I had understood that this person was in first class. I hadn't looked on the O.P threads since he went in prison and yesterday was the first time and just as I started to look through saw your post. I only replied to it as I knew there was no first class not because I was disputing what the young lady told you regarding seeing O.P. Also now that I realise she was in economy I realise she could have thought it was first class. I feel terrible if I have upset you and you think I am nitpicking. I do apologise, I always enjoy your posts and you have a lot of interesting things to write about. You have much more experience on the threads than me as you can see I am still a novice.

Thank you for this. I feel a little uneasy when people doubt my integrity. I gave her a hard time in clarifying this and she kept insisting that she saw OP on the plane. I simply thought that you might like you know this. I had no ulterior motive in reporting this as it was direct from her. I like to feel that when I post something that others believe that I have integrity so Jayjay's reaction that she dismissed it with such suspicion actually upset me.

Now Jayjay has decided that Uncle Arnold has a private plane! Where is the link for this, jayjay!

 

[Estelle]

http://geraldboardman.wordpress.com/2014/11/21/oscar-pistorius-what-really-happened/

So it’s impossible that she was still alive and that blood spatters could have gotten on the wall etc, when he took her down when the neighbours saw him. When he shot her, the door was open and he pulled her out. He took her downstairs alive causing blood squirts. She died downstairs and then he took her back upstairs. He then re-enacted everything and walked downstairs with Reeva as if it were the first time.


Another opinion and version, interesting.

I used to think that he was going to do a runner with Reeva's body and hide it where it could never be found pretending that he was taking her to the hospital as apparently his or her car door was left open and IMO the plastic garbage bags were going to be used to protect his or her car seats. Which car had its doors left open?

 

[jay-jay]

Well it sounds like you do not trust me.

I'm not being personal here, but no-one actually knows anyone from Adam on this forum .. we could all be anyone and say anything. There are millions, if not billions, of people who have access to the internet and you simply cannot just take what they say at face value. If people can back up their stories with photos or newspaper reports then fine, but I'm not going to just take things that people say as being actual fact.

 

[jay-jay]

Thank you for this. I feel a little uneasy when people doubt my integrity. I gave her a hard time in clarifying this and she kept insisting that she saw OP on the plane. I simply thought that you might like you know this. I had no ulterior motive in reporting this as it was direct from her. I like to feel that when I post something that others believe that I have integrity so Jayjay's reaction that she dismissed it with such suspicion actually upset me.

Now Jayjay has decided that Uncle Arnold has a private plane! Where is the link for this, jayjay!

BBM .. ahh, but the difference is that I said I cannot be 100% sure and that it's only what I've read on the internet, I've not said it's actual fact .. and it's something I put out there for others (if they wish) to research and either prove or disprove that Uncle Arnold owns his own private plane. I can, however, provide you with a link to an article on the internet which backs up what I said that his brother, Leo, is a director of a flight charter company (which appears to be one of the 120 companies owned by the Pistorius's between them) http://www.witness.co.za/index.php?showcontent&global[_id]=96515

 

[Cherwell]

There are so many things I find strange about the night Reeva was killed.

1. That Reeva didn't have a shower. (she was killed wearing the same top she was wearing when she arrived to the estate)
2. That there was no intimacy between the 2 of them. OP had asked her to stay the night, that would imply he was interested in intimacy in my opinion.
(When OP is being initimate with someone, does he keep is legs on or take them off?) He did view *advertiser censored* that night, that may indicate he was getting in the mood for some intimacy.
3. The dented metal plate on the bath.
4. The accuracy of his shots- I am wondering if he could see her in the toilet through the first bullet hole in the door ( as I do believe the light was on while he shot).
5. What could have possibly made him that mad - that he shot her? (I am aware she had seen her ex a few days before)
6. The position of her shoes indicate that she she was sitting on the bed at some time.
7. The jeans in the bedroom are significant because Oscar made sure he mentioned that he grabbed them to cover the light on the stereo. There is a reason he mentioned them and I am not exactly sure why.

Things just don't add up.

Couple of observations to add to Mr Fossil's comments.

1 and 2 - we don't know, we only have OP's account and he doesn't mention these things. The autopsy would prove (2) one way or the other, but it's not in the public domain afaik.

4 - I'm sure there's no way he could see through a bullet hole unless he knelt down beside the door and put his eye to the hole.

5 - could be anything. We have been shown that it takes very little for him to throw a tantrum. Here's an example

Francois [Louw], who worked with the Paralympian on his fragrance, Carbon, in 2008, revealed that at first the athlete was friendly and didn’t show signs of anger but snapped when there was an issue when delivering the finished products.

“He completely freaked out. He started screaming and swearing. He even kicked the garage door leading into his house so hard that we got a fright. As soon as he went into his house I could hear him screaming even louder and swearing constantly.

"My friend and I were petrified. We jumped into our cars without saying a word and drove off because we didn’t know what Oscar would do next,” Francois told the magazine.

The ordeal didn’t end there and Francois explained that it even went so far as to say that Oscar threatened his family.

http://www.all4women.co.za/entertai...list-breaks-silence-on-frightening-bad-temper

By the way, I wonder what Pistorius meant by "pyjamas". I understand pyjamas to mean a set of garments specifically designed as sleepwear, but perhaps he meant something else.

 

[soozieqtips]

Estelle, I think one of the issues here is that it wasn't you who witnessed OP on the plane. It was someone else (who isn't known on this forum) who passed the information on to you, and therefore it's not a first-hand account. I don't think anyone is doubting you were told this, but proving the person who told it to you is telling the truth and wasn't mistaken is impossible.

 

[JudgeJudi]

The tank top Reeva was wearing as she drove into the estate had a different neckline – it was wider, more scooped and the shoulder straps were very narrow. If you look at the photo below you’ll see the top she was wearing later. It has fairly wide edging around the neck and armholes. I believe she was wearing OP’s clothing later and this top certainly looks like it’s one his. It’s far too long to be a lady’s top and is very masculine looking.

OP said she was in “her pyjamas” when he arrived home 10 minutes later. However she wasn’t wearing “her” pyjamas at all. It was all his clothing. His choice of words is interesting as is “she probably would have been in a hurry to get changed and go downstairs”. What was the hurry? She was making a stir-fry for dinner which takes very little time to prepare and cook.

We know she had several pairs of jeans with her – the ones she was wearing and the ones outside. It was hot so my guess is she changed into his old clothes because she was going to cook and do yoga so shorts and one of his tops were better. It may well have been her original intention not to stay the night but then as it started getting late she may have changed her mind. It’s also possible that he wouldn’t allow her to leave because 1) the Pistorius men don’t allow their women out alone at night or 2) the argument was underway and he prevented her from leaving.

IMO the case all revolved around the blue LED light, and the jeans on the bedroom floor are crucial to this. He mentioned many times how the room was pitch black. First, it was not because the curtains were never draped over the fan as he said. I’ve gone into this previously so I’ll just leave it at that. Second, he said he was going to use the jeans on the floor to cover the LED light but he didn’t have time to do that because he then heard a noise in the toilet.

The LED light was hugely significant because

• it provided enough light for him to see the entire bed and so he had to have seen Reeva if he was sleeping on the left-hand side of the bed.
• it was on the amplifier against the wall at the foot of the bed and would have provided more than enough light for Reeva to see the passage leading into the bathroom. For this reason she didn’t need to use the light from her phone.
• this is why he didn’t need to turn on any lights when he returned to the bedroom (on his versions) to put on his legs.
• this is why he didn’t need to turn on the lights to look for her when he returned to the bedroom.
• this is why he didn’t stumble over fans, plugs, cords etc

There’s still one more mystery. Why didn’t he have blood on the soles of his feet? If you look at the photo below, how is it possible with the huge pools of blood in front of the toilet and between the toilet and the bookstand that he could reach out grab her from the corner in order to drag her out of the toilet as he did in the video, or even pick her up from that position, without getting blood on the soles of his feet. Bearing in mind the shocking injuries she’d sustained, it makes me feel more than a little sick to even think about grabbing someone with an arm that’s been almost amputated and dragging them, or in fact moving them at all. Why did he do this? If he cared for her at all and decided to move her for whatever reason, wouldn't he pick her up as tenderly as possible and put her on the bed? Plain old common sense would dictate you would never move, let alone drag, a seriously injured person. You'd immediately ring and wait for the ambos. His sentence was shockingly light and so were his actions. Just plain cruel. The only reason I can think of is that to see her confined to that tiny room would have made it look even worse than leaving her at the foot of the stairs.

Looking at the trajectory, yet again, just reinforces the fact to me that he knew precisely where she was at all times. He said he didn’t aim, that he just fired when he heard the wood noise. If so, why aim in a downward manner into the precise corner where she was slumped on the bookstand. His story is just that, a story. He DID know it was Reeva, he DID see her in the bedroom, he DID follow her into the bathroom and he DID aim to kill. It was murder.

Mr Fossil, regarding this bit of your post above #1119 - "This is why one fan becomes 2 fans and the jeans over the LED are added, as he needs to allow more time for Reeva to allegedly get to the bathroom without him seeing her", I think it's because he needs to bolster his story about wanting to keep the room pitch black as it would take only a few seconds to throw the jeans over the light. JMO

10 good closeups of a few crime scene photos including the tank top.
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/pistorius-trial/pistorius-trial-evidence-revealed-n61796

 

[Sherbert]

http://geraldboardman.wordpress.com/2014/11/21/oscar-pistorius-what-really-happened/

So it’s impossible that she was still alive and that blood spatters could have gotten on the wall etc, when he took her down when the neighbours saw him. When he shot her, the door was open and he pulled her out. He took her downstairs alive causing blood squirts. She died downstairs and then he took her back upstairs. He then re-enacted everything and walked downstairs with Reeva as if it were the first time.


Another opinion and version, interesting.

Yes, it is interesting. Although I believe that the State's witnesses did hear Reeva scream, I have wondered myself if the arterial spurts downstairs occurred before Op's 'official' descent.

 

[jay-jay]

Bearing in mind the shocking injuries she’d sustained, it makes me feel more than a little sick to even think about grabbing someone with an arm that’s been almost amputated and dragging them, or in fact moving them at all. Why did he do this? If he cared for her at all and decided to move her for whatever reason, wouldn't he pick her up as tenderly as possible and put her on the bed? Plain old common sense would dictate you would never move, let alone drag, a seriously injured person. You'd immediately ring and wait for the ambos.

~rsbm~

BBM - this bit really bothers me .. how the hell could anyone pick up someone who was that badly injured, not only with her arm almost amputated but part of her skull blasted open and blood and brain matter coming out .. I should imagine it must've been difficult enough for the paramedics who are trained in this kind of thing and no doubt deal with it on a fairly regular basis but I bet you they still find it hard .. and yet he just picks her up and carries her downstairs .. I seriously do not think that is the normal response of any normal person, and especially not in the circumstance of it being an accident .. the whole thing would freak you out, and you would be way too scared to either move, or even touch, that person and the only thing you would be doing is called the paramedics right away .. not calling your mate first, and not picking up that dead and grossly injured person and carrying them downstairs. He must actually be sick in the head to have been able to do that (and therefore sick enough in the head to have intentionally killed her). No doubt he would say it was because he loved her that much that he would do anything for her, anything to help her live, even carry her downstairs in the state she was in .. only he didn't, did he .. from what we know, he did everything and delayed everything, as much as possible to ensure that she was dead.

IMO, he had to pick her up and move her out of that toilet cubicle because, as Jj says, he thought it would look really bad for him if she was found like that, especially as he knew he was guilty .. whereas actually, the intruder version would've been more believable had he just left her there and called the paramedics immediately. I still do also think that he may well have been trying to dispose of her body, got caught in the act when people started turning up, and then he changed his story to it being him trying to save her/take her to the hospital as opposed to him taking her somewhere and dumping her.

 

[jay-jay]

Mr Fossil, regarding this bit of your post above #1119 - "This is why one fan becomes 2 fans and the jeans over the LED are added, as he needs to allow more time for Reeva to allegedly get to the bathroom without him seeing her", I think it's because he needs to bolster his story about wanting to keep the room pitch black as it would take only a few seconds to throw the jeans over the light.

.. which bit of the trial was it now where all of a sudden that room became not quite so dark as it had initially been stated it was, I can't remember who it was/which 'expert' it was who was testifying .. it was somewhere in the latter part of the trial .. and I couldn't believe that all of a sudden he, and Roux (I'm sure he piped up and 'confirmed' it), suddenly started saying words to the effect 'well, no, the room wasn't pitch dark .. we have never said that it was' .. and I was sat there open mouthed because I couldn't believe they were now saying that after all the pains the defence went to initially, to make that room as dark as possible, in Pistorius's own words it was 'pitch dark' (or was it 'pitch black', one of the two) .. then all of a sudden, it wasn't pitch dark in there. It's got to be one or the other, can't be both, and is therefore tailoring because neither of them fit.

 

[Lux et Veritas]

Glitz, bling, beef and guns – behind the chauvinism of white South Africa
http://theconversation.com/glitz-bl...nd-the-chauvinism-of-white-south-africa-26254

 

[Lux et Veritas]

Lies spill out of the mouths of self-pitying batterers like foam over the lips of rabid dogs.
- Morgan Songi

 

[Mr Fossil]

Oscar Pistorius birthday visit may have broken prison rules: report

http://www.theage.com.au/world/osca...oken-prison-rules-report-20141123-11scfs.html

Notice the key word 'may' in this sensationalist headline.


And from Aimee Joy Pistorius @AimeePistorius (who I am more inclined to believe):

1/5 I am dumbfounded at the false and irresponsible reporting in some newspapers today.

2/5 Facts: Carl & I had a 45 minute non-contact visit with Oscar yesterday as all our visits have been non-contact thus far, per regulations

3/5 My brother received NOTHING that was not allowed by prison regulations for group B prisoners. No cake or perishables present at all.

4/5 In fact, he only received toiletries and letters on his birthday and we took some balloons to SHOW him through the glass divider.

5/5 We are respectful of the rules. The correctional officers have been courteous but stern - as their position requires.

 

[Cherwell]

we took some balloons to SHOW him through the glass divider.

How tantalising.

 

[mrjitty]

Yes, it is interesting. Although I believe that the State's witnesses did hear Reeva scream, I have wondered myself if the arterial spurts downstairs occurred before Op's 'official' descent.

The arterial spurt and the killers own admission that he saw signs of life from Reeva are what prove the time of the later shooting.

The Stipps hear "shots" and screaming of a woman sometime around 3am. The forensics prove Reeva is alive at this time.

In the moments before 3.15.51 (one of the few fixed points in time), OP shoots Reeva.

On his own testimony, he breaks in within the next "couple of minutes". This is how he sees signs of life, though she is not breathing. IMO the cricket bat is already in the bathroom from the violence at 3am (broken tiles etc)

He drags her out (marks on floor). Compare with carrying her out (fake video reconstruction) which was clearly not possible without the actor holding on round his neck. This is how he does not step in the blood.

From the temporary site on the bathroom floor he carries her downstairs generating spatter on the duvet, wall etc.

The S spray proves Reeva came out of the toilet within 2-3 mins so her heart is still beating though she is not breathing

OP's timeline is impossible.

5 mins to get her out of the toilet, plus another 5mins+ for all the calls etc.

IMO everything happened as Stipps and Mr & Mrs N heard

Shots just before the security calls.

 

[mrjitty]

It makes an interesting read, as you say, but it's implausible IMO and makes statements of fact which I don't recognise. Nevertheless I always read these things because they make you think outside the box and, as a result, other ideas materialise.

IMO the obvious mistake is the locked toilet.

At one stage I wondered if the toilet was unlocked, or if OP had locked Reeva in there

But when you think about it, if the toilet was never locked, this is much better for OP version. So why would he smash the door up?

IMO his problem all along was the locked door

His stroke of good fortune, was Stipps claiming to hear the first "shots" - this is what provided OP with his EiC version.

Before Stipps - in his bail version - he basically has to stick to the timeline on the facts as he is aware of them and which is actually close to what happened after he shot Reeva.

In other words he shoots her, calls for help, breaks open the door and starts calling people.

At trial come the new additions AFTER hearing witnesses.

Namely the mix up about the bats.

But if you look at the bail version - there is nothing about the perfect 4 bats strikes or screaming like a woman.

But if the door were never locked - there is no reason for him to add this element to the story

I also think what the forensics make clear is that he broke straight into the toilet and got bloody, and Reeva still has a heartbeat.

That is why he contaminated the bedroom

What I do agree about, is the decision to manufacture a version.

And there is evidence of confused thinking. e.g. the bags. the strange phone call(s) to security.

In my view, he had at least 15mins in the leadup to the shooting to realise he could fake an intruder.

He may even have threatened Reeva with this.

I wonder if he had even toyed with the idea before.

 

[jay-jay]

I wonder if he had even toyed with the idea before.

~rsbm~

I've been wondering that too, especially since the ladders being outside was crucial to his version* .. who knows, perhaps he even planned to have those ladders left there ..


*if those hadn't been there, his whole version would've come crashing down completely.