Post sentencing discussion and the upcoming appeal

[jay-jay]

IIRC Dr Stipp doesn't explicitly say but Annette Stipp says the left side of the bathroom window was slid open. I take your point about seeing a figure moving though the frosted glass. I'll have to check but it would contradict his wife if he means all three panes.

I'm not sure .. just going by Lisa's blog ..

Mrs Stipp:

"Nel asks her if she also saw the man walking in the house, just as her husband did, but she did not. She is aware that in her statement she originally said she did but after really thinking about it, she did not, so she had them change it.

Mrs. Stipp also stated the house that they saw to the right of Oscar’s from their bedroom balcony had all of their lights on in the top story of the home. The house on the left (Oscar’s) has two sets of windows (one is the toilet room window and the other is the larger bathroom window) and one of the windows was open.

Here is an aerial view of Oscar’s bathroom windows. The toilet room window is on the left (the smaller one). The bathroom window is on the right. The white circle indicates the portion of the window that was open. According to Mrs. Stipp, the light remained on the entire time".

and Mr Stipp:

"Now, they are back to discussing Dr. Stipp’s vantage point. They review photos so Roux can understand what he saw. Dr. Stipp explains that he could see the top half of the middle and right window and all of the left window. Parts of the windows to the right are obstructed by trees, that is why he only saw half of those. The bathroom windows consist of 3 sections and according to Oscar, it was the section on the left that was open (if you are looking at the windows from the outside). Here is a photo of the windows from the inside – so it would be the window section closest to the toilet door on the right that Oscar states was open. Roux wants to know how Dr. Stipp saw a figure moving in the window since the windows are frosted. He assumes it’s because the window on the left is open and he can see the figure through that open space. Surprisingly, Dr. Stipp states that he doesn’t recall that window being open. This would be another huge problem for Oscar. The window being open is one of the things that supposedly freaked him out so much that he went in to full blown terror mode thinking there was an intruder in there. But Dr. Stipp states that he can’t definitely say if it was open or closed, just that he doesn’t recall that it looked open. Roux states they have pictures from the scene and puts the kibosh to that conversation quickly."

.. reading through the whole blog for both of the Stipps, neither of them appear to say they saw the window open (and Dr Stipp sounded pretty sure it was shut, i.e. he was seeing the figure through frosted glass but seems to have been persauded otherwise .. i.e. that he must've been mistaken and that the window must've been open). Mrs Stipp doesn't appear to have said it was open at all, she just refers to the light being on. Of course, I would really need to read through an actual transcript to be absolutely certain of what was said.

 

[Mr Fossil]

I'm not sure .. just going by Lisa's blog ..

Mrs Stipp:

"Nel asks her if she also saw the man walking in the house, just as her husband did, but she did not. She is aware that in her statement she originally said she did but after really thinking about it, she did not, so she had them change it.

Mrs. Stipp also stated the house that they saw to the right of Oscar’s from their bedroom balcony had all of their lights on in the top story of the home. The house on the left (Oscar’s) has two sets of windows (one is the toilet room window and the other is the larger bathroom window) and one of the windows was open.

Here is an aerial view of Oscar’s bathroom windows. The toilet room window is on the left (the smaller one). The bathroom window is on the right. The white circle indicates the portion of the window that was open. According to Mrs. Stipp, the light remained on the entire time".

and Mr Stipp:

"Now, they are back to discussing Dr. Stipp’s vantage point. They review photos so Roux can understand what he saw. Dr. Stipp explains that he could see the top half of the middle and right window and all of the left window. Parts of the windows to the right are obstructed by trees, that is why he only saw half of those. The bathroom windows consist of 3 sections and according to Oscar, it was the section on the left that was open (if you are looking at the windows from the outside). Here is a photo of the windows from the inside – so it would be the window section closest to the toilet door on the right that Oscar states was open. Roux wants to know how Dr. Stipp saw a figure moving in the window since the windows are frosted. He assumes it’s because the window on the left is open and he can see the figure through that open space. Surprisingly, Dr. Stipp states that he doesn’t recall that window being open. This would be another huge problem for Oscar. The window being open is one of the things that supposedly freaked him out so much that he went in to full blown terror mode thinking there was an intruder in there. But Dr. Stipp states that he can’t definitely say if it was open or closed, just that he doesn’t recall that it looked open. Roux states they have pictures from the scene and puts the kibosh to that conversation quickly."

.. reading through the whole blog for both of the Stipps, neither of them appear to say they saw the window open (and Dr Stipp sounded pretty sure it was shut, i.e. he was seeing the figure through frosted glass but seems to have been persauded otherwise .. i.e. that he must've been mistaken and that the window must've been open). Mrs Stipp doesn't appear to have said it was open at all, she just refers to the light being on. Of course, I would really need to read through an actual transcript to be absolutely certain of what was said.

This confirms what I thought. Mrs Stipp testified that the left hand window was open and Dr Stipp isn't sure

 

[Starmelody]

"Secondly, that the presence of wood splinters among the clean white stripes along the back and sides of the bloodied toilet suggest it was flushed before Pistorius pulled the trigger, with the water continuing to run as Reeva collapsed into it. If she had run into the toilet to hide from an intruder, having heard Pistorius shouting, why would she flush the toilet? But given such a version of events – that she went to the toilet because she needed the toilet, not because she was hiding or arguing – helped neither side, so was ignored by both"

ref:http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-e...iener--barry-bateman-book-review-9799098.html

if the toilet was flushed, it would have helped the state more than the defence. I know why it wasn't mentioned, but if the state could have thought of a senario including the toilet flushing then this would have worked against the intruder story. I am not sure why they did this.

 

[JudgeJudi]

I simply can't stand all the "I would have" or "I must have" throughout his cross-examination. You either did, you don't recall or don't remember. You'll notice every time he does this is when he's being boxed into a corner by Nel. It reeks of lying or tailoring.

That's it for me for today. Good luck with your investigations into the pull cord Mr Fossil.

 

[jay-jay]

This confirms what I thought. Mrs Stipp testified that the left hand window was open and Dr Stipp isn't sure

.. yes, sorry .. I took that first BIB to mean the house on the left of Oscars :facepalm:

 

[Mr Fossil]

I've deleted my post about the blinds ... it's too confusing the way I've put it (it's confusing me!). Will reorganise and re-post later.

 

[jay-jay]

I've deleted my post about the blinds ... it's too confusing the way I've put it (it's confusing me!). Will reorganise and re-post later.

.. read OK to me (says me who completely misread the bits I quoted from Lisa's blog, LOL!). I was just about to say .. the blinds may have become a problem for him when he says he goes out onto the balcony to shout 'help, help, help' because it would've meant him having to wind them up/back in order to be able to access the balcony and that just wouldn't have fitted into his story of panic.

 

[Mr Fossil]

.. read OK to me (says me who completely misread the bits I quoted from Lisa's blog, LOL!). I was just about to say .. the blinds may have become a problem for him when he says he goes out onto the balcony to shout 'help, help, help' because it would've meant him having to wind them up/back in order to be able to access the balcony and that just wouldn't have fitted into his story of panic.

Yes, I'm thinking something similar too but I think I need to tabulate the state of the blinds at different stages to make it clearer and also check out how they work. Perhaps I shouldn't think aloud on here!

ETA: My first thoughts on looking at the photos are that the blinds appear to be what I'd refer to as a net curtain. OP also says at one point that he just grabs them (referring to the curtains and/or the blinds) so perhaps they are just nets. In fact he says they "hang from the same rail in a light type of chevron material". If that's the case I'll move on. I had incorrectly imagined they were vertical slatted blinds with the usual control cords.

 

[jay-jay]

Hmm .. looking at the pix of his bedroom again, I think what he calls a 'blind' is more of what we would think of as being just a net curtain and looks like you would just open and pull it shut in the same way that you would open and close the main curtains ..

 

[Mr Fossil]

Hmm .. looking at the pix of his bedroom again, I think what he calls a 'blind' is more of what we would think of as being just a net curtain and looks like you would just open and pull it shut in the same way that you would open and close the main curtains ..

Agreed, we've both come to the same conclusion (see my previous post)

 

[Mr Fossil]

In an earlier post I mentioned that OP keeps telling us he closes the curtains. This has perplexed me. If the curtains were draped around the fans, with only "a bit of light light through where the top fan was, but very little in the room", I had imagined that the curtains were effectively already closed but he even asks Reeva to "close the doors ... bring in the fans and close the curtains" when she goes to sleep.

I now think I realise what my problem is. I don't understand the fan, curtain and door arrangement when he goes to sleep at all! Can someone please explain because he often mentions opening and closing the "[sliding] doors" but it appears to me that there is only one sliding door - the one on the right looking out from the bedroom - and it opens across and behind (on the outside of) the left door and locks on the far right. See, for instance, photo in jay-jay's post #1249.

So if he has one leg of the tripod fan on the balcony, where exactly is the fan placed so that he can close "the doors til they [are] more or less in line with the fans because at night, there is a light on the balcony that attracts insects and they come into my room" and then draw "the curtains so that no bugs could come in from the outside" such that they are "more or less draped around the side of the standing fan."

I think I must have misunderstood something.

ETA: Sorted! They are two sliding half doors and they open to each side across a glass window of equal size. See http://www.timeslive.co.za/local/2014/08/22/exclusive-in-oscar-s-footsteps

 

[mrjitty]

A sensible arrangement assuming the fan was ever on. It's definitely plugged in but wasn't found on. Perhaps it was on earlier that evening. Interestingly, nowhere in OP's story do we hear about his plugging in or at least switching on the fan(s).

You could tell in his EiC and X where his real memory recall begins and ends.

There is a period where he reasonably confidently describes browsing on his ipad - then when it gets to "going to sleep time" he starts repeating himself and loses commitment to his text.

From that point on, his text is expository and one dimensional, without any external references as he is 100% dependent on his own manufactured content to drive the narrative. There is no one else in his narrative (aside from THE BIG BAD) until real events start again and Reeva can re-enter the story (dead)

I agree he can't set up the room layout properly (for obvious reasons).

http://ed.ted.com/lessons/the-language-of-lying-noah-zandan

I really recommend this TED video in terms of analysing his text!

The obvious take out is that the accused is unable to explain how he came to make the "mistake"

In case of no credible evidence of such mistake - the court must infer there was no mistake made

 

[mrjitty]

In an earlier post I mentioned that OP keeps telling us he closes the curtains. This has perplexed me. If the curtains were draped around the fans, with only "a bit of light light through where the top fan was, but very little in the room", I had imagined that the curtains were effectively already closed but he even asks Reeva to "close the doors ... bring in the fans and close the curtains" when she goes to sleep.

I now think I realise what my problem is. I don't understand the fan, curtain and door arrangement when he goes to sleep at all! Can someone please explain because he often mentions opening and closing the "[sliding] doors" but it appears to me that there is only one sliding door - the one on the right looking out from the bedroom - and it opens across and behind (on the outside of) the left door and locks on the far right. See, for instance, photo in jay-jay's post #1249.

So if he has one leg of the tripod fan on the balcony, where exactly is the fan placed so that he can close "the doors til they [are] more or less in line with the fans because at night, there is a light on the balcony that attracts insects and they come into my room" and then draw "the curtains so that no bugs could come in from the outside" such that they are "more or less draped around the side of the standing fan."

I think I must have misunderstood something.

The way I understood all of this is that the point of the fan in the door is to pull air from outside into the house

But obviously this makes zero sense if the curtains have to be closed.

I presume he is trying to combine his real habit with the need for biblical night

 

[Mr Fossil]

The way I understood all of this is that the point of the fan in the door is to pull air from outside into the house

But obviously this makes zero sense if the curtains have to be closed.

I presume he is trying to combine his real habit with the need for biblical night

Yes, I'm struggling to understand the curtain and fan arrangement (although I've figured the doors now). I'm trying to think how I would set it up to minimise light (and insects) but still draw air in ....

 

[Lux et Veritas]

I'd say you would have to be extremely lucky to avoid being hit in a room of that size if you were standing behind the door when someone fires a gun four times at the door from the other side. In fact, it would be virtually impossible to not get hit either directly or via a ricochet. And in using Black Talon bullets the consequences of any hit(s) would be devastating.

Exactly. When asked why he used Black Talons, his disingenuous and deceitful answer was that it was the type of ammo for his gun. No, his gun did not specifically require Black Talons. OP wanted to avoid saying he chose that ammo because of its horrific killing power*.

Taking this fact one step further, one can infer his INTENT to KILL that night.

One shot might have been an “accident”.
Four was an execution.

* What does it say about OP that he chose ammo that’s so devastating that it’s banned from military use in wartime?

 

[Lux et Veritas]

"You can't shoot through a closed door. People who own guns and have been through the training, they know that shooting through a door is not going to go through South African law as an accident. There is no situation in South Africa that allows a person to shoot at a threat that is not identified. Firing multiple shots, it makes it that much worse. ...It could have been a minor - a 15-year-old kid, a 12-year-old kid - breaking in to get food."
- Andre Pretorius, resident of the Professional Firearm Trainers Council

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Experts-Pistorius-violated-basic-gun-rules-20130226

Yet here we have poor little rich boy Oscar sitting in VIP Prison for a few months for an “accident”, inexplicably convicted of CH instead of murder - an outrageous perversion of the law. The SCA must absolutely correct this vile travesty.

 

[mrjitty]

Yes, I'm struggling to understand the curtain and fan arrangement (although I've figured the doors now). I'm trying to think how I would set it up to minimise light (and insects) but still draw air in ....

Well - to have the fan head as the only gap

but obviously a ton of light will come in at that height, through the head of the fan

to me it looks like whomever was sleeping on that side, has at some stage moved the fan out of the doorway to close the door.

That's why it is set facing strangely into the room but not at the bed

imagine someone gets out of bed, swings it out of the way, closes the door and gets back into bed

 

[Lux et Veritas]

Originally Posted by Kaos
The muzzle flash thing that somebody posted a day or two ago is really bugging me too. There used to be somebody on here who had knowledge of this particular gun so I'd also like to hear from them whether it would have flashed as I find it hard to believe that it didn't and it should really have played a more significant part in the state's case. No mention whatsoever of a muzzle flash and yet OP testified very concisely that he knew what a muzzle flash looked like when he came up with the perceived hijacking on the highway. His high attention to little blue led lights would surely have noticed a flash from his gun as he himself said, he kept his eyes open looking between the window and the door.

Originally Posted by 808
Wow Kaos that's something that wasn't discussed!

"In a dark room, a large muzzle flash from a +P round will temporarily blind you, making it impossible for follow up shots."
http://www.ballistics101.com/personal_defense.php

Depending on the type of round he used (It was ranger version of black talons) he would have been blinded in the dark by the flash. The grouping was deliberate and close, not the shooting of a deaf, blind legless terrified individual.

A very crucial point never brought up in court.

OP testified he was temporarily deafened by the gunshots but he never mentioned being temporarily blinded by multiple muzzle flashes.

This lends even more credence to witness and State claims that the bathroom light was ON during the shooting.

 

[jay-jay]

A very crucial point never brought up in court.

OP testified he was temporarily deafened by the gunshots but he never mentioned being temporarily blinded by multiple muzzle flashes.

This lends even more credence to witness and State claims that the bathroom light was ON during the shooting.

I wonder if he opened the window* to lessen the effect of the gunshot on his ears then (as well as turning on the light during the shooting to lessen the effect of the flashes on his eyes) .. it does actually lessen the effect of a loud noise on your ear to have a window open because I always ask my friend to tell me when he is going to sneeze in the car so that I can open the window, else otherwise he sneezes so loud you can feel the pressure on your eardrums if the window's not open!

I still find it amazing though that Pistorius could've fired 4 shots in that confined space without his hearing being permanently damaged. Surely just the one shot would've been enough on his ears to have stopped him firing any further, in his intruder version? I kinda poo-pooed suggestions some while back of him possibly wearing ear protection, but now I'm wondering (and I'm wondering this because I'm toying with the idea that this may all have been a bit more premeditated than him just losing control during an argument) .. because I just cannot see how anyone could fire another 3 shots after that first one without ear protection, if the shots were as noisy as they are proported to be. It just doesn't make any sense to me ... and I'm sure that after that first shot, he would've waited to see what the reaction was from behind the door before shooting again (I don't mean just a short pause, I mean a longer one, and combined with more shouting at the intruder just to see if there was any response or further danger from them, if he really did think it was an intruder) .. why would anyone continue to ruin their hearing if they did not need to? (i.e. their intruder was dead) .. no, he had to keep on firing because he had to make sure he killed Reeva .. he had to make sure she was dead, at all costs.


* as well as needing it to be open for his intruder version, of course.

 

[Val1]

The official transcript of OP's testimony was posted on the Behind The Door site here. If you mean my personal version, it isn't complete. It covers all of OP's EIC but only part of his XE. It is more accurate than the official transcript and I'm happy to share it. I also have lots of bits of other witness testimony where an important point was covered. I'll take a look at gathering it all together and posting a link to it if that's what you're after?

BBM Thanks for posting the link, I just started re-reading his testimony when it struck me, I don't recall anything being made of his mother re-marrying when OP was 14. Not to who, or whether that impacted on him going to boarding school, being at loose ends and not going home on weekends or whatever, as well as whether that contributed to his father not only not being around much but to his moving away after his ex-wife passed(which to me says his father was still around at least up until then, even though they had separated/divorced 8 years before, so what factored into his father moving away after...extended family?, new widowed ex-husband?). Not to take away from losing his mom, I lost mine at 12 and we weren't even allowed to go see her in hospital back then, though she was also in hospital for iirc a week and a half before she died, and yes my father was pretty distant for the most part(just par for the course for many I would guess), but it sounds to me like his issues are more with his mom "leaving" them for a new marriage and perhaps even the subconscious thought that her punishment for doing so was death, than his father.

Anyway, like most kids, it seems like he was just not that affected by anything that didn't impact him directly, except in retrospect when it makes for a good excuse for inappropriate behaviour. I also noted that the word fight was omitted from the vocabulary, though it was obvious that was what was being discussed at a few points, I guess it was thought it might give impetus to the thought pattern that he didn't have a complacent, passive personality... plus distancing himself from a father who seems to have the same impulse control problem didn't hurt.
------------------------------------------------
" Seven to high school, we grew up with my mother. We moved around a fair deal and my mother got remarried when I was 14.
How old were you when your parents separated?
---
I was six. Six years old."

"I had just started boarding school, she had just got married... remarried and we did not even...my brother and I did not even know she was sick. We were just informed, we had not been home for... Sometimes on the weekends as a boarder you stay in at the hostel. So we were not informed that she was sick and by the time we were, she was already in a coma and then for about a two week period I think, back and forth there were some days where...where she got...where the doctors wanted us to go through, so we would leave school in the middle of the day and go through to Johannesburg where she was and we would sit by her and then the other day she got better and we would go back to school and I kind of carried on and then the one day they phoned us and said we must rush to Johannesburg and I think we were there for about ten minutes, before she passed."

"Some holidays we would spend with my father and Christmas. We did not see much of him at that point. He had, after my mom’s passing he had moved down to the Cape, so we saw him maybe once or twice a year, but we have got a close extended family and so if we were not with friends, we were with them."