Post sentencing discussion and the upcoming appeal

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Thanks SO much for this.

It was fascinating to listen to, especially now being on the other side of the verdict and sentencing, and currently awaiting appeal. I would have loved it if it had been televised, but, oh, well.

I'm BEGGING someone to explain something to me.

On or about 1:50:00, Judge Nair said, "The accused has shown tendencies of aggression. It is not in dispute that he used foul language and threatened to conduct himself in a violent manner. It is not in dispute that he threatened to break someone's legs. It is not in dispute that, further, the accused caused his friend to try to manipulate a complainant into not taking a matter further."

If the judge at the bail hearing accepted these things as "not in dispute," how could they subsequently be disputed and even denied during the trial?

One example during the trial:

Nel: Have you ever threatened to break anyone's legs?
OP: "No."
Nel: But you've heard that someone has said that you did?


What's the legality of that?

BBM - I don't know for sure, but would guess Judge simply meant that Roux hadn't x-examined Botha on these particular statements, thus leaving them "not in dispute" for purposes of the Bail Hearing.

"Not in dispute" imo doesn't mean the same as "defense conceded" or "accepted as common cause." Thus leaving lawyers free to question those accusations at trial. imo
 
le

Muchas gracias, chica.

So, patCee, do you recommend the book as a whole? I haven't yet invested.

Sorry once again ColonelM, but I don't have the book. The link I gave is just a generous extract.
 
I think Botha was careless, because he was told it was a straightforward intruder killing, and until he got upstairs, he had no reason to believe otherwise. By then, he'd already trampled over the crime scene without protective footwear, although I think there were other things he did without due care and attention. However, OP himself had already interfered with the crime scene by the time the police arrived.

careless, compromised, or whatever... it seems odd to me that a 'swap' was done. surely the removal of a phone from the scene of the crime is far more damning to op's defence.

and regardless of whether the balance is equal between botha and the phone, in doing such deals, where is the search for truth/justice and presenting an accurate record of events to the judge?
 
Very harsh. I can't agree that refusing to lie for a criminal offspring makes somebody a bad parent.

You're absolutely right. It was an undeserved generalization whereby I lumped Henke in with others in his family. What with lying, purse stealing, phone stealing, phone tampering, the sense that he was less than an involved father in many ways, not the least of which was financial (I read somewhere, that Grandmother P. supported OP, K, A, and his mother, after Henke split the scene), doesn't in the least mean he's dishonest.

I'm NOT being sarcastic, here. I was generalizing and not having a generous heart. He could be a very loving and honest person who also faces many struggles.
 
http://www.pattiwood.net/article.asp?PageID=11872

Stone-faced when most people would be showing sadness and loss. Remember he is normally very expressive, his face moves! When listening to testimony before his questioning he seems focused, cool and calm till his "breakdown."

Frozen in place body language, posture ridged when most people would show grief or stress– an indication he does not feel the appropriate emotions or feels the need to hide his true emotion. To be clear, the timing of his stiff frozen body language is not the freeze in place body language from fear. In fact, he expresses freely when he is defending himself, but when he should be showing grief he freezes.

Steely, long gazes of hate at the prosecuting attorney, that allows you to see how his anger could have caused a murderous rage.

Paralanguage strong and fast paced (vocal cues) as he argues with the prosecuting attorney he rarely shows any grief or distress but ,instead is fast paced within each sentence and at times strong and argumentative responses and explanations to the prosecuting attorney. If you just LISTEN to him being questioned by the prosecuting attorney and pay no attention to the words you would think that a teenager was having an argument with his father. When he is questioned at one point he says with his words, "didn't have time to think." but his explanations for his behavior before and after he makes that statement seem specific and concrete, details coming from his rational neocortex. He remembers so many tiny actions and does not miss sharing any of them as he responds to tough questions. He is fighting in this trial, and he fights with details.

At times fakes overly, dramatic crying.

Pistorius bent over crying.

................... (more to it)
 
careless, compromised, or whatever... it seems odd to me that a 'swap' was done. surely the removal of a phone from the scene of the crime is far more damning to op's defence.

and regardless of whether the balance is equal between botha and the phone, in doing such deals, where is the search for truth/justice and presenting an accurate record of events to the judge?
BIB - I know. Mind you, having seen how she so casually discounted ear witness testimony, I'm not sure the missing phone would have made any difference to her, especially if there was no way of knowing the contents of what was deleted. I'm still very interested to know why all messages received after the killing were deleted.

What was so incriminating that they needed to be wiped? Messages suggesting OP use a tried and trusted intruder excuse? Who knows. That's just another secret the clan will take with them to the grave. I would like to ask CP "How do you tweet at night?"
 
IMO it was a tad more than suggestion at the bail hearing, more an affirmation in one of his "it cannot be reasonably possibly be true" moments. OTOH, OP said he put the gun down to put on his prothesis but picked it up again.

Coincidentally I am just reading the extract of Behind the Door that someone kindly linked to. In it there is an account (much mocked by those present on the night) of OP actually dancing in nightclub with his gun. So maybe that little BIB could be reasonably possibly true!!! The more I find out about OP - more I think what a jerk!

free extracts link
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...lved in previous aggressive incidents&f=false
 
Oscar Pistorius Body Language in the Courtroom Casts Doubt

If My lady” uses her legal skills along with her genuine common sense and pays attention to the defendant’s body language, facial, language, and vocal tone, she will come up with the right verdict for Oscar Pistorius as his communication skills and body language speak volumes.

This entry was posted on Tuesday, April 22nd, 2014 at 4:36 pm and is filed under body language, Celebrities, Newsmakers and Sports Figures. Tagged: acting lessons, body language, body language expert, communication skills, dr. lillian glass, lillian glass, Lillian Glass PhD, Oscar Pistroius, Reeva Steenkamp. You can feed this entry. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.
 
This right here. Wow. Pure judicial fraud in service of pure judicial bias.

But what else can one do to arrive at one’s pre-determined verdict other than tortuously twist and vaporize damning evidence to fit same?

First, let’s get something straight.

No ear witness “contradicted” any other ear witness. In fact, multiple, independent witnesses corroborated each other. While they all may have heard pieces and parts (some much more than others) and the descriptions may have varied, NONE of those auditory pieces and parts were ever disproved not to have occurred. Not hearing something is not proof it didn’t happen. (I regularly sleep through violent thunderstorms, barking dogs and once even slept through an earthquake. LOL :D)

Phone records are at most, partial evidence - not definitive, all-inclusive evidence. Such a notion that digital evidence is somehow inherently superior to witness evidence is highly dangerous and grossly unjust. Digital data records only give SOME of the What, When and Who ... but NOT the Why and How. Neither do they offer any context within the larger, overarching ‘mosaic’.

A chronology is just that - a time line, a framework, nothing more, nothing less. And even a chronology, especially in the context of a murder trial (where certain facts will never be known), is apt to be only a partial roadmap, littered with potholes and detours - it’s not some infallible GPS of Truth, as Masipa would have you believe.

Phone logs can “recreate” only just so much. It can’t tell you what happened before, during, after or between phone calls, nor the actual content of those calls.

Phone records, chronologies, witness testimonies, physical exhibits, photos, experts, etc. are ALL crucial tools to piece events together.

For a judge to arbitrarily place one form of evidence above one or more others as inherently the “best”, while wholesale trashing other forms of evidence without good cause is extremely suspect (especially when that allegedly “inferior” evidence is highly damning to the accused).

It strongly suggests one is NOT in search of the truth or justice.


Masipa summarily ditched testimony of FIVE State witnesses who essentially corroborate each other’s accounts of gun shots / bangs / female screams / female + male voices / and/or verbal argument. (Strangely, though, she did keep Dr. Stipp’s singular, suddenly-very-reliable eye witness account of Oz’s remorse. *sniff* WAAA!!!!)

Yet, inexplicably, she deemed “poor”, “evasive”, “untruthful” (i.e. lying through his teeth) OP’s testimony as reliable enough to exonerate him of murder!

This murder defendant (who had every reason to lie and had, in fact, been proven a liar) was believed over five State witnesses (all telling the same basic story), who all had no ulterior motives to lie (and who all would have rather been anywhere else than on the stand). UNfreakinbelievable. If this isn’t flat-out bias/incompetence/corruption, I don’t know what is.

Masipa’s dismissive, blanket statement essentially declared ALL human beings fallible ALL the time, ALL their memories fade ALL the time (...or at least in this one murder trial ... wink wink).

If this is so, why bother having freakin witnesses testify in any court case ever?!!

Just pull the phone logs and pronounce judgement!
Hey, we all know that telecom servers and digital databases are 100% infallible EYE and EAR witnesses to the actual crime scene / events in question, right?!
Phone logs can easily distinguish between tone, volume, pitch, inflection, speed, pauses, female screams, male crying, silence vs human verbal fights, gun shots vs cricket bat strikes, even the exact words spoken, right?!


GAH. :mad:

Phone records should be used to corroborate eye/ear witness testimonies ... NOT the other way around!

Drilling down beneath her words - reading between the lines - Masipa’s rationale was wholly inexplicable, lousy with gaping holes and downright bizarre. But, in light of her biased, pre-ordained goal (CH with a feather-soft landing), her judgement could not have been otherwise.

Inconvenient fact: Human beings also tell the TRUTH; they also have excellent memories (especially when it comes to stuff like “blood-curdling screams” - which never "fade" with memory).

No matter.

Masipa gave the benefit of the doubt to a proven liar who had every incentive to LIE, while basically dissing all State’s witnesses as “unreliable”, ostensibly because their (highly similar) accounts / times / descriptions didn’t match up perfectly.

Masipa demanded of State witnesses what she did NOT demand of Oscar... water-tight, seamless presentations, perfect in their collective conformity, right up to the last detail, never varying one jot - beyond any and all challenge, correction or reproach.

That, my dear fellow sleuthers, is a flaming red flag.

The more I reflect on Masipa’s dreadful judgement and even worse sentence, the more royally pissed I become.


You GO, girl! With you 5000%!!

I'm hoping that, beyond your participation here on WS, that you secretly sit on SA's Supreme Court of Appeal.

Supreme Court Justice by day, Sleuther by night.
 
Coincidentally I am just reading the extract of Behind the Door that someone kindly linked to. In it there is an account (much mocked by those present on the night) of OP actually dancing in nightclub with his gun. So maybe that little BIB could be reasonably possibly true!!! The more I find out about OP - more I think what a jerk!

free extracts link
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...lved in previous aggressive incidents&f=false
Alcohol + OP make quite a deadly combination. Loss of memory, abuse, aggression, etc. That didn't stop Uncle Arnold complaining that OP's bail conditions were unfair for including a ban on alcohol... because apparently he didn't drink alcohol!!
 
BBM -
...

"Not in dispute" imo doesn't mean the same as "defense conceded" or "accepted as common cause." Thus leaving lawyers free to question those accusations at trial. imo

BINGO! That's where I needed clarification.
 
We never got an answer to Nel's cryptic, "Did you ever tell anyone that you woke up in a cold sweat? No? You never said that to anyone?" did we?

When all this is done and dusted and OP's verdict is changed to DE and he's given the proper 15 years (I can dream), then I think Mr Nel needs to come and talk to us. We have much to discuss ;)

I reckon he and Ms Johnson read this site.

*waves*
 
Alcohol + OP make quite a deadly combination. Loss of memory, abuse, aggression, etc. That didn't stop Uncle Arnold complaining that OP's bail conditions were unfair for including a ban on alcohol... because apparently he didn't drink alcohol!!

Is that what they said! Ha ha! "It's so unfair that my teetotal nephew is banned from drinking alcohol!"

Honestly, if this was a Hollywood mini series we'd none of us bother watching because it would be too far fetched!
 
Wow, so many lies already before a/the murder??? That fits with other statements, ie his expensive car, which was only lent and never had been OP's own.

maybe he has been telling tall stories - what he calls white lies - for a long time... starting with stories to fellow school children about his legs - 'shark attack', 'legs were a special acquisition from toys'r'us' [2 examples c/o the biography]. maybe it morphed into compulsive lying...

the roadside shooting of the dog, the night-time dual carriageway shooting, most of the 'defending reeva from intruder' version.

bigging himself up.
 
A photo I hadn’t seen before.

The luminous, lovely Reeva in an orange gown.

She continues to bring joy and a smile.
:)

581790_159518167570198_577473013_n.jpg
 
There was a discussion up thread regarding posters believing they had heard that OP's father had signed an affidavit saying that the ammo in OP's safe belonged to him.

The only place I ever heard anything about it was a posting (which I reposted at a later date) by @04009margaret on 8/7/2014 while we were waiting here to catch Nel's oral closing arguments. (Thread#49)

Margaret said that OP Radio announced before Court today that OP's father has now provided DT with an affidavit claiming the ammo was his.
 
Alcohol + OP make quite a deadly combination. Loss of memory, abuse, aggression, etc. That didn't stop Uncle Arnold complaining that OP's bail conditions were unfair for including a ban on alcohol... because apparently he didn't drink alcohol!!

Yes, so many instances of binge drinking have been revealed. Remember Roux and his long speech about how, as an athlete, he never drank in the on-season between specific dates, and only in moderation socially when he was not in training. (IIRC the dates Roux gave were very significant but sadly I can't remember them offhand.)

A tenuous link: From some of the articles WSers have linked to this week, a few authors described Op's mum as being "hard-drinking". His crime has nothing to do with his mother, but it still makes me wonder if there is any connection in terms of alcohol abuse. ( I know nothing about the correlation so happy to be put right.) I certainly don't recall the family ever mentioning it, even though that was the reputation.

I found it pretty shocking that Henke, as posted earlier, would plan a business meeting whilst baby OP was scheduled for his operation ...so I am sure she needed any solace she could get.

As for this being a "case that just keeps giving" re. Media, it keeps giving for forum members too. I am still marvelling from the info in a post upthread, at his glib lies re local mayor building him the house in Gemona and that the Italians had also built him a track in his honour. Presumably he thought lying in an interview in an Afrikaaner mag would not be disputed by Italians, or the lying had just become so habitual.
(To anyone who thinks I am unfairly damning, this continual fibbing crops up endlessly in accounts about OP.)

PS. Back on the Bateman book, from the link given by Patcee, I am at the bail hearing suspension stage and OP has just rejected his father's consoling gesture, outstretched hand, as he goes back to his cop cell, presumably this is the brush-off because Daddy is not playing ball with agreeing to take the blame for the ammunition as opposed to simply being a sign of past "wounds".
 
Alcohol + OP make quite a deadly combination. Loss of memory, abuse, aggression, etc. That didn't stop Uncle Arnold complaining that OP's bail conditions were unfair for including a ban on alcohol... because apparently he didn't drink alcohol!![/QUOTE]

LOL... it could be that the uncle didn't know that OP drinks... I've known any number of adults who conceal from their parents that they drink... and a few other habits as well. :)
 
There was a discussion up thread regarding posters believing they had heard that OP's father had signed an affidavit saying that the ammo in OP's safe belonged to him.

The only place I ever heard anything about it was a posting (which I reposted at a later date) by @04009margaret on 8/7/2014 while we were waiting here to catch Nel's oral closing arguments. (Thread#49)

Margaret said that OP Radio announced before Court today that OP's father has now provided DT with an affidavit claiming the ammo was his.

Yes I remember it being announced too and recall thinking what convenient timing, he now accepts the blame for Tashas and Henke has been coerced into signing the affadavit. At that point I thought it was defence desperate tactics as I was sure a DE verdict was coming in. How wrong I was.
 
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