Post sentencing discussion and the upcoming appeal

[Deleted member 102539]

I have no doubt that OP pulled the same incoherent, blubbering act on Netcare that he did on Baba. (No wonder an ambulance never showed up till Stipp got the ball rolling himself! Had Stipp never appeared at the crime scene, it’s likely only the cops would have called Netcare when they arrived at 3:55am.) Not only did OP simply want to get his obligatory calls to Netcare and security on the official call log, he wanted to make damn sure she was DEAD before paramedics arrived. It’s clear to me that even before Stipp arrived, Stander could see Reeva was already long dead.

What’s even more galling is that the good Dr. Stipp was among Masipa’s “unreliable”, trashed State witnesses. Geezus, he was the only one there trying to get her medical assistance!

Oh, and this is the same Olympic athlete who supposedly couldn’t lift Reeva (he calls an old guy for help LOL) - but miraculously, suddenly does exactly that all by himself with no problem. Stander just needed to show up and witness OP’s tragic descent down the stairs with his beloved, “dying” Reeva. When you really think about all the details of this murder, all the outlandish impossibilities and improbabilities, how all the tiny, damning pieces fit, Oscar really is an ice-cold, calculating, devious sociopath of the worst kind.

bbm red
... and OP had enough power, to swing Reeva's dead body back and forth, splattering her blood to the left and to the right everywhere.

 

[Cherwell]

At what precise moment did Reeva 'bite down' and clamp her teeth into OP's fingers that's what I want to know!
Can she do that 'after'death?
After the head shot.............is it involuntary?
How many minutes 'after death' would her body be able to do that?
Bearing in mind the head shot killed her................OP then ran all over the place/phoned people and opened doors /ran up and down the stairs etc etc................but then !!! after all that time he was seen by the Standers carrying her down the stairs with her teeth and jaw muscles firmly clamped on his fingers eh!!.
Or did it happen at the bottom of the stairs?
Carice said OP told her to put her fingers in Reeva's mouth while he went for tape and black bags.
Then Dr.Stipp had to try and do a 'procedure' to unlock her jaw from his fingers!! wtf!
Something doesn't make sense there surely?
Was Clarice after or before Dr.Stipp?
When were OP's fingers locked in Reevas mouth?
If he lay her down at the bottom of the stairs as per the Standers testimony then how could his fingers be 'clamped' in Reevas' teeth when Stipp arrived?
She was dead a long time before this.................unless his fingers were 'clamped' in her mouth immediately after the shooting in the toilet when he put them there to stop her ................well you know the rest !!
I'm confused now lol

One of the medic posters, such as Jake18, would be able to answer in detail. But I do know that the body is capable of various spasms and movements post-mortem - it's all part of the process of death.

 

[Lux et Veritas]

Originally Posted by 44ALLAN
At what precise moment did Reeva 'bite down' and clamp her teeth into OP's fingers that's what I want to know!
Can she do that 'after'death?
After the head shot.............is it involuntary?
How many minutes 'after death' would her body be able to do that?
Bearing in mind the head shot killed her................OP then ran all over the place/phoned people and opened doors /ran up and down the stairs etc etc................but then !!! after all that time he was seen by the Standers carrying her down the stairs with her teeth and jaw muscles firmly clamped on his fingers eh!!.
Or did it happen at the bottom of the stairs?
Carice said OP told her to put her fingers in Reeva's mouth while he went for tape and black bags.
Then Dr.Stipp had to try and do a 'procedure' to unlock her jaw from his fingers!! wtf!
Something doesn't make sense there surely?
Was Clarice after or before Dr.Stipp?
When were OP's fingers locked in Reevas mouth?
If he lay her down at the bottom of the stairs as per the Standers testimony then how could his fingers be 'clamped' in Reevas' teeth when Stipp arrived?
She was dead a long time before this.................unless his fingers were 'clamped' in her mouth immediately after the shooting in the toilet when he put them there to stop her ................well you know the rest !!
I'm confused now lol

One of the medic posters, such as Jake18, would be able to answer in detail. But I do know that the body is capable of various spasms and movements post-mortem - it's all part of the process of death.

Cadaveric spasm, also known as postmortem spasm, instantaneous rigor, cataleptic rigidity, or instantaneous rigidity, is a rare form of muscular stiffening that occurs at the moment of death, persists into the period of rigor mortis[1] and can be mistaken for rigor mortis. The cause is unknown, but is usually associated with violent deaths happening under extremely physical circumstances with intense emotion.[2]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadaveric_spasm

 

[44ALLAN]

Cadaveric spasm, also known as postmortem spasm, instantaneous rigor, cataleptic rigidity, or instantaneous rigidity, is a rare form of muscular stiffening that occurs at the moment of death, persists into the period of rigor mortis[1] and can be mistaken for rigor mortis. The cause is unknown, but is usually associated with violent deaths happening under extremely physical circumstances with intense emotion.[2]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadaveric_spasm

So................my question is.................

If Reeva died after the head shot when exactly did OP get his fingers stuck in her teeth?
He did a lot of running around and opening doors etc before he carried her downstairs !
When exactly did he try to 'help her breath' by sticking his fingers in her mouth?..............it wasn't upstairs that's for sure because he said he needed help lifting her !
So................it couldn't have been upstairs or on the stairs .
It must have been at the bottom of the stairs when he was putting a show on trying to save her life...........yes?
But how did he then leave to get tape and black bags?.
Her dead body then 'involuntarily' bit down onto his fingers and Dr.Stipp had to perform a 'manoevre' to unclamp her jaw from his fingers !.
Did the Standers say OP was carrying Reeva downstairs with his fingers in her mouth?
I don't think so I can't remember that.
How long after death can these spasm's occur..............and why would he even consider sticking his fingers in her mouth to help her breath/or Carice for that matter when she was obviously already dead................so many unanswered/not asked questions fgs !

 

[JudgeJudi]

At what precise moment did Reeva 'bite down' and clamp her teeth into OP's fingers that's what I want to know!
Can she do that 'after'death?
After the head shot.............is it involuntary?
How many minutes 'after death' would her body be able to do that?
Bearing in mind the head shot killed her................OP then ran all over the place/phoned people and opened doors /ran up and down the stairs etc etc................but then !!! after all that time he was seen by the Standers carrying her down the stairs with her teeth and jaw muscles firmly clamped on his fingers eh!!.
Or did it happen at the bottom of the stairs?
Carice said OP told her to put her fingers in Reeva's mouth while he went for tape and black bags.
Then Dr.Stipp had to try and do a 'procedure' to unlock her jaw from his fingers!! wtf!
Something doesn't make sense there surely?
Was Clarice after or before Dr.Stipp?
When were OP's fingers locked in Reevas mouth?
If he lay her down at the bottom of the stairs as per the Standers testimony then how could his fingers be 'clamped' in Reevas' teeth when Stipp arrived?
She was dead a long time before this.................unless his fingers were 'clamped' in her mouth immediately after the shooting in the toilet when he put them there to stop her ................well you know the rest !!
I'm confused now lol

Cadaveric spasm, also known as postmortem spasm, instantaneous rigor, cataleptic rigidity, or instantaneous rigidity, is a rare form of muscular stiffening that occurs at the moment of death, persists into the period of rigor mortis[1] and can be mistaken for rigor mortis. The cause is unknown, but is usually associated with violent deaths happening under extremely physical circumstances with intense emotion.[2]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadaveric_spasm

So................my question is.................

If Reeva died after the head shot when exactly did OP get his fingers stuck in her teeth?
He did a lot of running around and opening doors etc before he carried her downstairs !
When exactly did he try to 'help her breath' by sticking his fingers in her mouth?..............it wasn't upstairs that's for sure because he said he needed help lifting her !
So................it couldn't have been upstairs or on the stairs .
It must have been at the bottom of the stairs when he was putting a show on trying to save her life...........yes?
But how did he then leave to get tape and black bags?.
Her dead body then 'involuntarily' bit down onto his fingers and Dr.Stipp had to perform a 'manoevre' to unclamp her jaw from his fingers !.Did the Standers say OP was carrying Reeva downstairs with his fingers in her mouth?
I don't think so I can't remember that.
How long after death can these spasm's occur..............and why would he even consider sticking his fingers in her mouth to help her breath/or Carice for that matter when she was obviously already dead................so many unanswered/not asked questions fgs !

You've asked some fascinating questions Allan and I've spent hours looking for possible answers. In light of what I've posted in reply, I agree that there are some very serious issues here that demand answers. I included some info about the eyes because someone with medical knowledge may be able to tie the two together within a timeframe.

“She also was clenching down on Oscar’s fingers as he was trying to open her airway. He tried to do a jaw lift manoeuver which was very difficult due to the clenching. He opened her right eyelid. Her pupil was fixed dilated and the cornea was milky”.
http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/03/06/oscar-pistorius-trial-day-4/

"The order of appearance of rigor:

All muscles of the body, both voluntary and involuntary are affected. It begins in the eyelids, neck and lower jaw and passes upwards to the muscles of the face, and downwards to the muscles of the chest, upper limbs, abdomen and lower limbs.

In violent death as by … firearms … the onset of rigor is early and duration is short.

Cadaveric spasm is a rare condition. In this, the muscles that were contracted during life become stiff and rigid immediately after death without passing into the stage of primary relaxation. As such, the change preserves the exact attitude of the person at the time of death for several hours afterwards. It occurs especially in the case of sudden death, excitement, fear, severe pain, exhaustion, cerebral haemorrhage, injury to the nervous system, firearm wound of the head etc. This is usually limited to a single group of muscles and frequently involves the hands. No other condition simulates cadaveric spasm and it cannot be produced by any method after death.

This condition is of great medico-legal importance."

http://www.forensicpathologyonline.com/e-book/post-mortem-changes/muscular-changes

"The eyes often exhibit some of the earliest postmortem changes, as a result of stoppage of capillary circulation and settling of red blood cells. If the eyes remain open, a thin film or cloud can be observed within minutes on the surface.

http://www.defrostingcoldcases.com/...ot-conclusive-post-mortem-interval-evidence/"

 

[JudgeJudi]

Lisa wants to hear from us.

"What were the most notable bull***t moments from Oscar’s defense team during trial?

Here are a few from my list:

1. Oscar screams like a woman.

2. Roux comparing Oscar to an abused woman in his closing.

3. Oscar had Generalized Anxiety Disorder (GAD).

4. Dixon, the Geologist.

5. Double Taps.

Ok go…"

You can add your comment on her link:

http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/12/07/defense-team-b/

 

[saraomar]

With the application for leave to appeal now just 4 days away, here's a reminder of the links to my various resources:

Key questions (KQ) - arising from phone data and beyond (supports WTA2)
Timeline (TIM) - 13/14 February 2013
Phone usage charts (PUC) - 3 tabs, one each for 5353, 4949 and 0020
WhatsApp messages (WAM) - from the trial and more
Witness locations (aerial) (WLA) - Silver Woods satellite view from May 2013
Witness locations (graphic) (WLG) - inc vacant plots and Guard Track locations
Witness testimony analysis (WTA) - based on evidence given
Witness testimony analysis 2 (WTA2) - possible Prosecution chronology based on Johnson's call time being fast (see also KQ)

Comments, corrections, additions and alternative views always welcome

If a new thread starts up I'll post again at the start of the thread.

Thank u so so much! U treasure you! Don't know what we would do without you!

 

[Val1]

Lisa wants to hear from us.

"What were the most notable bull***t moments from Oscar’s defense team during trial?

Here are a few from my list:

1. Oscar screams like a woman.

2. Roux comparing Oscar to an abused woman in his closing.

3. Oscar had Generalized Anxiety Disorder (GAD).

4. Dixon, the Geologist.

5. Double Taps.

Ok go…


http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/12/07/defense-team-b/

6. The Bladerunner can't run.

 

[L2L]

Roux ..... “He has lost everything. He was an icon in the eyes of South Africans. But he was denigrated to an enraged cold-blooded killer. He has nothing left. His last asset was his car which he sold - not to get a better sentence, but to do everything he could to make good.”

 

[emirates1957]

6. The Bladerunner can't run.

7. Didn't fire a warning shot as he knew it could come back to hurt him.

 

[L2L]

When would the accused have had an opportunity to stage the scene, opening the bathroom window and moving evidence, Roux asked. "In his traumatized state of mind, he came up with this elaborate version?" He shook his head. "It cannot be."

 

[L2L]

More BS in Roux's closing arguments :

Roux tried to explain: "That constant reminder, I do not have legs, I cannot run away, I am not the same, that's with him, he can't pretend, he can't pretend that it's fine."

"That effect of that over time, it filled the cup to the brim."

Well, what do you know? It cannot be!

 

[jay-jay]

I think I would probably have to post pretty much the whole trial (from the defence side) for that list :-/

 

[akp]

The judge is not officially in the defence team, but then this is no official document or survey either. Keeping that in mind, can I put the verdict as the most bs moment from the defence team in the trial?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Peliman]

Lisa wants to hear from us.

"What were the most notable bull***t moments from Oscar’s defense team during trial?

Here are a few from my list:

1. Oscar screams like a woman.

2. Roux comparing Oscar to an abused woman in his closing.

3. Oscar had Generalized Anxiety Disorder (GAD).

4. Dixon, the Geologist.

5. Double Taps.

Ok go…"

You can add your comment on her link:

http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/12/07/defense-team-b/

When he couldn't remember who he called to pick him up from the shooting incident on the hiway when he claimed to be shot at by an unknown car.

 

[Starmelody]

7. He wanted to cover the LED light on the stereo with the jeans
8. He searched for Reeva in the dark after he thought he had shot her (not to mention the way he actually felt around for her)
9. The manner in which he says he brought the fan inside- not turning his head towards the bed nor the passageway
10. Oscar screams like a woman intermingled with screaming like a man- Norman Bates style
11. Reeva went to bed loved that night
(to name a few)

 

[Starmelody]

7. He wanted to cover the LED light on the stereo with the jeans
8. He searched for Reeva in the dark after he thought he had shot her (not to mention the way he actually felt around for her)
9. The manner in which he says he brought the fan inside- not turning his head towards the bed nor the passageway
10. Oscar screams like a woman intermingled with screaming like a man- Norman Bates style
11. Reeva went to bed loved that night
(to name a few)

12. Oh and how he the gun went off on its own in Tashas.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

13. Both OP and Reeva were sleeping after 10pm.
14. No alcohol, no drugs, no fight.
15. No deleted phone data, which have to do with the "accident".

 

[soozieqtips]

When he couldn't remember who he called to pick him up from the shooting incident on the hiway when he claimed to be shot at by an unknown car.

He also couldn't remember who he called to drive him back the next day to pick up his car from the car park, despite sitting in the car with this "friend" and no doubt chatting to him about his "near death experience". And oddly enough (or not oddly considering whose mouth it came from), no one came forward to corroborate this lie story.

 

[mrjitty]

13. Both OP and Reeva were sleeping after 10pm.
14. No alcohol, no drugs, no fight.
15. No deleted phone data, which have to do with the "accident".

16. How he might have opened the curtains and balcony doors holding a gun
17. How he searched behind the curtains