Post sentencing discussion

[vansleuths]

Thank you. No, I haven't done this for the Defence HoA but I can see that it would be useful for showing the issues that arise. I'll give it some thought but not sure if I have the time.

Thanks again MrFossil for your efforts. I can certainly imagine that it would be quite an undertaking to create something like this for the defence HoA. I will keep my eyes open in the event that you do undertake this endeavour, but in any case, thanks again for doing this for the PT HOA, I'm sure there are many that feel like me that this was really valued.

Now to go back to studying it

 

[OZe]

During the trial, her mother notes how Reeva was referred to as “the deceased” in the sterile language of the court.

“Reeva has become sort of invisible,” she says. “She’s a person. She’s somebody who’s loved and somebody who’s going to be missed for ever and ever.”

Many of us are dismayed at the depersonalisation of Reeva Steenkamp throughout the trial. It was all about the bad guy; Reeva was "his girlfriend", "the love of his life", "the deceased", "a model" and her killing was "an accident", "a mistake", "an incident".

Perhaps we could redress this slight by adjusting the focus of our posts (e.g. not "Oscar's trial" but "the trial for Reeva's killing"), mention Reeva by name whenever we get the chance and, instead of "Oscar", "Pistorius" or "OP" refer to him as "the killer", "the convict", "the prisoner" or "the-ex athlete in the orange jumpsuit".

Just a thought.

 

[OZe]

Excellent points.

I, too, would feel so much better about the future if something treatable had been diagnosed.

Did Traumatic Head Injury ever come up in Court? IIRC that boating accident did a lot of damage to his face/head.

In my view, the only reliable outcome from the Weskoppies interlude was that Reeva's killer did not suffer from GAD at the time of her death.

-- without constant 24-hour observation, he was free to go home every night and reflect on and discuss the process
-- he had access to a convict-hugging psychologist and an aunt who worked as a profiler, both of whom would have been very familiar with the system and the tests he would face
-- if memory serves, the psychologist who painted a picture of the killer as considerate, remorseful, and non-volatile was a DT appointment

If anything, I'm surprised he flunked the GAD portion of the test. Clearly not the sharpest tool in the toolbox, but a tool nonetheless.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I dont use twitter but i wonder if anyone has asked carl what he did with his brothers phone ? Can you ask direct questions on twitter in between his god loves me tweets
Might be worth joining twitter just to do so

I would have the possibility to ask him on twitter. But I wouldn't dare, when I think of his aggressiveness even against Donald Trump. :notgood:

 

[Deleted member 102539]

That's right. I was convinced Roux would have linked to it if he could have done. So that leaves us as before, with no specific reason for him killing Reeva. It was probably just an extension of his previous uncontrolled and unaccountable behaviour reaching its inevitable climax. As an aside, I wonder if his new girlfriend will be on the visiting list!

bbm

If Leah hasn't yet ended the relationship with "the athlete in the orange jumpsuit", then I would want to ask the parents to imprison her somewhere until she has grasped it, that TAITOJ (see above "the athl......") isn't suitable for her. :smile:

 

[Deleted member 102539]

What do you think would have happened, if "the athlete in the orange jumpsuit" were brought to mental hospital directly after the murder??
His state of mind possibly would have required, to examine him thoroughly over weeks and months.

 

[Mr Fossil]

Here is a quote from Samantha Taylor referring to her time with him. He was probably using his Blackberry as the iPhone 5 wasn't released until September 2012. The Blackberry also runs WhatsApp.

"You know, we both suffer from insomnia. Often I would wake up and he would be sitting on his phone. I often saw her name, although it was not saved under 'BabyShoes" at the time. It was 'Jenna Edkins'. I often saw her name. If he was showing me a photo on his phone and her WhatsApp message would pop up - we fought over that a lot. She was a very big problem in our relationship, a huge problem."

From Behind The Door by Mandy Wiener and Barry Bateman.

OP has 3 GPRS activations when he says he was asleep, the last being at 01:48:48, ending just before the argument EvdM reports hearing at 01:56.

As I've said many times before I believe he learned to use Airplane Mode on the iPhone to stop embarrassing communications coming in when he wasn't using the phone. This accounts for the periods when there is no GPRS connection shown on his phone (it is an 'always on' service). He has to take the phone out of Airplane mode to use it. He was therefore awake IMO at 01:48 and this last GPRS activation (WhatsApp exchange) triggered the argument that EvdM reports hearing. And hence the phone disappeared and was tampered with.

 

[akp]

Here is a quote from Samantha Taylor referring to her time with him. He was probably using his Blackberry as the iPhone 5 wasn't released until September 2012. The Blackberry also runs WhatsApp.

"You know, we both suffer from insomnia. Often I would wake up and he would be sitting on his phone. I often saw her name, although it was not saved under 'BabyShoes" at the time. It was 'Jenna Edkins'. I often saw her name. If he was showing me a photo on his phone and her WhatsApp message would pop up - we fought over that a lot. She was a very big problem in our relationship, a huge problem."

From Behind The Door by Mandy Wiener and Barry Bateman.

OP has 3 GPRS activations when he says he was asleep, the last being at 01:48:48, ending just before the argument EvdM reports hearing at 01:56.

As I've said many times before I believe he learned to use Airplane Mode on the iPhone to stop embarrassing communications coming in when he wasn't using the phone. This accounts for the periods when there is no GPRS connection shown on his phone (it is an 'always on' service). He has to take the phone out of Airplane mode to use it. He was therefore awake IMO at 01:48 and this last GPRS activation (WhatsApp exchange) triggered the argument that EvdM reports hearing. And hence the phone disappeared and was tampered with.

It was disappointing, during Moller's testimony, to see the Prosecution Team not pursue this harder. When this connection at 01:48 came up, Roux just said it could have been due to some app, without any direct human intervention - Moller agreed it is possible, and that was it! The iphone together with its data was such an important piece of evidence and the State was so amateurish in handling it - right from not charging Carl for tampering with it to not pursuing whatever important information was still left in it.

 

[JudgeJudi]

“… there was a sense leading up to last week’s sentencing of Oscar Pistorius that the High Court of South Africa still had things to prove. Rarely is a sentencing exercise subject to such intense international scrutiny in any jurisdiction.

The relative importance of the three fundamental issues of offence, offender and public interest … has been the topic of fierce debate by academics, media commentators and the public for the past month”.

Professor Matthew Hall
Professor of Law & Criminal Justice
University of Lincoln

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/...rial-South-Africas-courts-under-scrunity.html
 

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Barry Bateman on twitter today:

12.1.2013 19:03:43 UTC
Whatsapp Oscar to Reeva

"I felt so close to you last night, when we made love and sometimes I just feel venerable ...
................... I don't want a mediocre relationship, I feel like we have a beautiful connection .............."

 

[Angela Carr]

Here is a quote from Samantha Taylor referring to her time with him. He was probably using his Blackberry as the iPhone 5 wasn't released until September 2012. The Blackberry also runs WhatsApp.

"You know, we both suffer from insomnia. Often I would wake up and he would be sitting on his phone. I often saw her name, although it was not saved under 'BabyShoes" at the time. It was 'Jenna Edkins'. I often saw her name. If he was showing me a photo on his phone and her WhatsApp message would pop up - we fought over that a lot. She was a very big problem in our relationship, a huge problem."

From Behind The Door by Mandy Wiener and Barry Bateman.

OP has 3 GPRS activations when he says he was asleep, the last being at 01:48:48, ending just before the argument EvdM reports hearing at 01:56.

As I've said many times before I believe he learned to use Airplane Mode on the iPhone to stop embarrassing communications coming in when he wasn't using the phone. This accounts for the periods when there is no GPRS connection shown on his phone (it is an 'always on' service). He has to take the phone out of Airplane mode to use it. He was therefore awake IMO at 01:48 and this last GPRS activation (WhatsApp exchange) triggered the argument that EvdM reports hearing. And hence the phone disappeared and was tampered with.

And that's why you're called sleuthers! Should be supersleuthers.

 

[Mr Fossil]

Barry Bateman on twitter today:

12.1.2013 19:03:43 UTC
Whatsapp Oscar to Reeva

"I felt so close to you last night, when we made love and sometimes I just feel venerable ...
................... I don't want a mediocre relationship, I feel like we have a beautiful connection .............."

Yes, it does suggest June is wrong.

The next bit is interesting too:

"It makes me smile so much cause I know you putting me first. I just want that cause I know I need that for it to work."

 

[JudgeJudi]

Feb 14, 2006 - Nodded off at the wheel after setting off for Vicky Miles’ house, 400 miles from his, at 3am after they had a blistering row. One side of the vehicle was completely destroyed.

2008 - His ex-stylist, Francois Louw, witnessed a terrifying temper tantrum

2009 - Cassidy Taylor-Memmory charged OP with assault when he punched a door so hard it fell on her leg following an argument with his then-girlfriend. Case took 4 years to settle.

Feb 2009 - Boating accident

2011 - Stormed out of a BBC radio interview after taking exception to a question about his fight to take part in non-disabled athletics

Oct 2011 - Drunk and extremely abusive to 2 women at Kings of Leon concert

2012 - Temper tantrum at Paralympics when he loses a race to Brazilian, Alan Oliveira whom he wrongly accuses of using illegal blades.

Room-mate, Arnu Fourie changes rooms to get away from OP’s constant screaming on the phone.

Sept 2012 - Enraged by jealousy, confronts and swears at Quinton van der Burgh at Kyalami racetrack about his relationship with Sam Taylor.

Started sending threatening SMSes to Van der Burgh.

Marc Batchelor, a friend of van der Burgh got involved and he and OP exchanged threatening SMSes with OP threatening to break his legs.

30 Sept 2012 - Shoots through the sunroof of a car

Jan 2013 - Tasha’s shooting incident

Feb 2013 - Shoots and kills Reeva

Apr 2013 - Out partying with friends at a trendy bar, “throwing back shooters” (shots) and patted a friend’s girlfriend on the bottom. Patrons were shocked and thought it horribly insensitive to go out for drinks with friends so soon after Reeva's death.

July 2014 - An intoxicated OP got involved in an argument at a nightclub. The club’s bouncers were asked to remove him after he then got into a confrontation with another man.


Miscellaneous:

2002 - At 15 he was allowed to drive Carl’s car illegally around Pretoria.

2004 - Bought his first car when he was 17, too young for a driver’s licence.

Mothers had to remove their children from the gym because of his continual swearing.

His biographer Gianni Merlo said, "He could get very furious suddenly"

 

[Mr Fossil]

Feb 14, 2006 - Nodded off at the wheel after setting off for Vicky Miles’ house, 400 miles from his, at 3am after they had a blistering row. One side of the vehicle was completely destroyed.

2008 - His ex-stylist, Francois Louw, witnessed a terrifying temper tantrum

2009 - Cassidy Taylor-Memmory charged OP with assault when he punched a door so hard it fell on her leg following an argument with his then-girlfriend. Case took 4 years to settle.

Feb 2009 - Boating accident

2011 - Stormed out of a BBC radio interview after taking exception to a question about his fight to take part in non-disabled athletics

Oct 2011 - Drunk and extremely abusive to 2 women at Kings of Leon concert

2012 - Temper tantrum at Paralympics when he loses a race to Brazilian, Alan Oliveira whom he wrongly accuses of using illegal blades.

Room-mate, Arnu Fourie changes rooms to get away from OP’s constant screaming on the phone.

Jan 2012 - Tasha’s shooting incident

2012 - Shoots through the sunroof of a car

Sept 2012 - Enraged by jealousy, confronts and swears at Quinton van der Burgh at Kyalami racetrack about his relationship with Sam Taylor.

Started sending threatening SMSes to Van der Burgh.

Marc Batchelor, a friend of van der Burgh got involved and he and OP exchanged threatening SMSes with OP threatening to break his legs.

Feb 2013 - Shoots and kills Reeva

Apr 2013 - Out partying with friends at a trendy bar, “throwing back shooters” (shots) and patted a friend’s girlfriend on the bottom. Patrons were shocked and thought it horribly insensitive to go out for drinks with friends so soon after Reeva's death.

July 2014 - An intoxicated OP got involved in an argument at a nightclub. The club’s bouncers were asked to remove him after he then got into a confrontation with another man.

His biographer Gianni Merlo said, "He could get very furious suddenly"


Miscellaneous:

2002 - At 15 he was allowed to drive Carl’s car illegally around Pretoria.

2004 - Bought his first car when he was 17, too young for a driver’s licence

I agree. This is a damning chronology of his recklessness etc.

Tashas was Jan 2013
Sunroof incident was 30 Sep 2012

According to charges in the indictment, although I do recall Nel changing a date when he read out the charges. I need to check which one.

ETA: Nel changed the sunroof year from 2010 to 2012

 

[Interested Bystander]

Quote from a contributor in

http://www.biznews.com/blog/2014/04/22/oscar-pistorius-reason-not-guilty-murder/

“Oh come on! The guy is legless, not brainless. He knew it would kill her. You'd have to be brain dead not to realise that.”



How I would liked to have heard Nel say this to Roux.

 

[JudgeJudi]

I agree. This is a damning chronology of his recklessness etc.

Tashas was Jan 2013
Sunroof incident was 30 Sep 2012

According to charges in the indictment, although I do recall Nel changing a date when he read out the charges. I need to check which one.

ETA: Nel changed the sunroof year from 2010 to 2012

Thanks Mr Fossil. The Tasha's date was stupidity - I knew it 2013. I'm not sure where I got the other date from. I'm so glad you were here and I still had time to fix that up. Then PC problems Grrrrrr.

I did a list once before but this has far more to it. Have I missed anything?

 

[JudgeJudi]

Righteo peeps, we have

:bed: :bed: :bed: :bed: :bed: :bed: :bed: :bed:

:bed: :bed: :bed: :bed: :bed: :bed: :bed:

to go before we learn whether the State will lodge an application for leave to appeal.


NB: 14 working days from sentence on 21 October.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Feb 14, 2006 - Nodded off at the wheel after setting off for Vicky Miles’ house, 400 miles from his, at 3am after they had a blistering row. One side of the vehicle was completely destroyed.

2008 - His ex-stylist, Francois Louw, witnessed a terrifying temper tantrum

2009 - Cassidy Taylor-Memmory charged OP with assault when he punched a door so hard it fell on her leg following an argument with his then-girlfriend. Case took 4 years to settle.

Feb 2009 - Boating accident

2011 - Stormed out of a BBC radio interview after taking exception to a question about his fight to take part in non-disabled athletics

Oct 2011 - Drunk and extremely abusive to 2 women at Kings of Leon concert

2012 - Temper tantrum at Paralympics when he loses a race to Brazilian, Alan Oliveira whom he wrongly accuses of using illegal blades.

Room-mate, Arnu Fourie changes rooms to get away from OP’s constant screaming on the phone.

Sept 2012 - Enraged by jealousy, confronts and swears at Quinton van der Burgh at Kyalami racetrack about his relationship with Sam Taylor.

Started sending threatening SMSes to Van der Burgh.

Marc Batchelor, a friend of van der Burgh got involved and he and OP exchanged threatening SMSes with OP threatening to break his legs.

30 Sept 2012 - Shoots through the sunroof of a car

Jan 2013 - Tasha’s shooting incident

Feb 2013 - Shoots and kills Reeva

Apr 2013 - Out partying with friends at a trendy bar, “throwing back shooters” (shots) and patted a friend’s girlfriend on the bottom. Patrons were shocked and thought it horribly insensitive to go out for drinks with friends so soon after Reeva's death.

July 2014 - An intoxicated OP got involved in an argument at a nightclub. The club’s bouncers were asked to remove him after he then got into a confrontation with another man.


Miscellaneous:

2002 - At 15 he was allowed to drive Carl’s car illegally around Pretoria.

2004 - Bought his first car when he was 17, too young for a driver’s licence.

Mothers had to remove their children from the gym because of his continual swearing.

His biographer Gianni Merlo said, "He could get very furious suddenly"

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/22/magazine/oscar-pistorius.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Pistorius is, as well, blessed with an uncommon temperament — a fierce, even frenzied need to take on the world at maximum speed and with minimum caution. It is an athlete’s disposition, that of a person who believes himself to be royalty of a certain kind — a prince of the physical world.
Hanging out with Pistorius can be a great deal of fun. You also quickly understand that he is more than a little crazy.

red bbm= ??????

 

[Interested Bystander]

I have been 'ruminating' about the verdict of this court ever since it was handed down. From what I have read it seems that the State can only appeal on a point of law. I struggle to understand, as the judges have to read the whole court proceedings, why a judgement on the facts also cannot be taken into account. Something has to change in SA law to give the State the same rights as the Defence. Otherwise it makes a mockery of justice.

You have a judge (or assessors, depending on what one believes) completely disregarding several earwitness's evidence that a female voice was heard screaming and yet allows the claim that "Oscar screams like a woman and I will show you that" (Roux) which, of course, he never did. How on earth could/would Mrs Burgess have known there was a gap between the first and final three shots (also stated in Mangena's evidence) if she did not hear it? There really needs to be a retrial but I doubt that will happen now. I think most of us feel that this court allowed Oscar to get away with murder.

I wonder if de Toit had ever met Oscar before the trial? Would that not have excluded her from being an assessor? Anyone know?

 

[patCee]

Thanks Mr Fossil. The Tasha's date was stupidity - I knew it 2013. I'm not sure where I got the other date from. I'm so glad you were here and I still had time to fix that up. Then PC problems Grrrrrr.

I did a list once before but this has far more to it. Have I missed anything?

Wasn't there another incident in a restaurant when OP was drunk, and verbally abusive to a couple on another table and his friends led him away? I'm sure I remember it being published somewhere but I can't find it now.