Post sentencing discussion

[BritsKate]

based on your thinking here, do you believe he would repeat the offence... i.e. the amount of prison time will not make any difference to his behaviour once released.

IMO...yes and no really. I believe he will have the capacity to kill again but whether the 'perfect storm' of events could brew leading to murder in his lifetime again, no one can say. I believe he will most certainly have access to firearms regardless of what the court dictates - he's likely to be attracted to the image of power, control, and intimidation. And most importantly, the rules for your average Joe don't apply to a narcissist. They live by a code of entitlement.

I believe precious few actual narcissists ever reform though - they, like Oscar, can appear (superficially) remorseful but it's often an act to manipulate (to gain sympathy, exert control, etc). One can note the difference by the abundance of me's and I's.

OP (if he is an untreated narcissist) will always be a megalomaniac. He will always be selfish, manipulative, and cruel or charming, as needed to get what he wants. He will always be completely self-absorbed and demand he be of primary importance to everyone around him. What happens next though depends hugely on them, not him. The only way I know of to live with a narcissist is to pacify and coddle them. The only way I know of to live is to cease any and all contact with them and never look back.

 

[sleuth-d-]

IMO...yes and no really. I believe he will have the capacity to kill again but whether the 'perfect storm' of events could brew leading to murder in his lifetime again, no one can say. I believe he will most certainly have access to firearms regardless of what the court dictates - he's likely to be attracted to the image of power, control, and intimidation. And most importantly, the rules for your average Joe don't apply to a narcissist. They live by a code of entitlement.

I believe precious few actual narcissists ever reform though - they, like Oscar, can appear (superficially) remorseful but it's often an act to gain sympathy. One can note the difference by the abundance of me's and I's.

OP (if he is an untreated narcissist) will always be a megalomaniac. He will always be selfish, manipulative, and cruel or charming, as needed to get what he wants. He will always be completely self-absorbed and demand he be of primary importance to everyone around him. What happens next though depends hugely on them, not him. The only way I know of to live with a narcissist is to pacify and coddle them. The only way I know of to live is to cease any and all contact with them and never look back.

bbm
so, the missing mother figure looms particularly large here... [and the missing unconditional love of the mother]
on the other side of the coin, could be why he secures the attention/sympathy of the many 'caring' women around him... masipa/social worker/trauma worker/psychologist/sam taylor's mum/henzen du toit...

i am reminded of the strange picture [he described] of reeva calling him to brush his teeth; the taller/older/smart/strong willed woman standing next to the smaller op at the double sink.

 

[Fuskier]

RBBM

That's pretty common for a narcissist actually. They're incredibly manipulative and attempt to control everyone and everything. The most successful are often high-powered CEO's and entrepreneurs - but even they often have chaotic, 'out of control' social lives - multiple divorces, poor relationships with peers, family, and their kids, etc. It's gotta be like a juggler keeping 20 balls up in the air - their whole being is based on lies, manipulation, control and a fragile facade - and eventually a ball, or ten, are going to fall. No one can tell a narcissist where they're going wrong because narcissists are never wrong. Never. And...if someone does call them out for their bad behaviour, a narcissist will adapt their behaviour to be more covert (like less physical, but more emotional or financial abuse) or the narcissist will simply cut ties - totally - with their detractors.

Personally, if I'm right with my armchair dx, I don't see OP learning any lessons from this experience. Not killing Reeva, not facing trial, not prison, and not post-prison restrictions. OP, if he is a narcissist, will always feel he is 'above' any punishment and is being maliciously persecuted. I'm not an optimist when it comes to NPD - they're highly resistant to treatment as nothing is wrong with them - it's the rest of the world at fault. And in this case no treatment will even be available since apparently nothing is amiss. Um. Yeah. Okay.

In prison, I think he will adapt very well - that's what narcissists do out of necessity for survival - they adapt constantly and become highly skilled at it.

JMO and FWIW

ETA: An appeal! :confetti:

Unfortunately - where 'the family system' continuously 'collude' there is a poor prognosis for change IMO.

 

[Lux et Veritas]

Another reason I'm glad this is being appealed:

If all of this had wound down and this forum become a ghost town, I would have missed all of you too much.

Colonel, knowing Ozzie and his family, this could go on for YEARS!

(We may have the start of the longest-running WS forum thread in its history. LOL)

 

[pandax81]

The Criminal Procedure Act states that the prosecutor must first request the reservation of question(s) of law (the method by which the state can appeal the verdict) to the high court which heard the trial, and if refused there are 21 days to ask the Supreme Court of Appeal.

(Because Seekoei raises the conundrum of how to reserve a question in the case of a competent verdict, I had always presumed the state would request Masipa to reserve its questions, then if rejected on grounds of Seekeoi, request the Supreme Court of Appeal to reserve them and thus start a trial within a trial over Seekeoi.)

The Act also states that the court itself can decide to give bail once a question is so reserved, without a cross-appeal.

319 Reservation of question of law

(1) If any question of law arises on the trial in a superior court of any person for any offence, that court may of its own motion or at the request either of the prosecutor or the accused reserve that question for the consideration of the Appellate Division, and thereupon the first-mentioned court shall state the question reserved and shall direct that it be specially entered in the record and that a copy thereof be transmitted to the registrar of the Appellate Division.

(3) The provisions of sections 317 (2), (4) and (5) and 318 (2) shall apply mutatis mutandis with reference to all proceedings under this section.

317 (5) If an application for condonation or for a special entry is refused, the accused may, within a period of 21 days of such refusal or within such extended period as may on good cause shown, be allowed, by petition addressed to the President of the Supreme Court of Appeal, apply to the Supreme Court of Appeal for condonation or for a special entry to be made on the record stating in what respect the proceedings are alleged to be irregular or not according to law, as the case may be, and thereupon the provisions of subsections (11), (12), (13), (14) and (15) of section 316 shall mutatis mutandis apply.

321 When execution of sentence may be suspended

(1) The execution of the sentence of a superior court shall not be suspended by reason of any appeal against a conviction or by reason of any question of law having been reserved for consideration by the court of appeal, unless-

(b) the superior court from which the appeal is made or by which the question is reserved thinks fit to order that the accused be released on bail or that he be treated as an unconvicted prisoner until the appeal or the question reserved has been heard and decided

 

[emirates1957]

Remember back right after the verdict, but before the sentencing someone here at WS wrote a post about how the verdict was possibly a clever ploy by Masipa herself - she wanted to ensure that the PT appeals the CH verdict so that it could be overturned to murder. Had JM given a harsher sentence, the DT would possibly have appealed, and subsequently get a lesser sentence. The speculation was that Masipa wanted to guarantee a murder sentence, but could only get it if she gave a lesser verdict, with high hopes that the PT appeals.

Does anyone else remember this? I wouldn't know where to start searching for this post, but I thought it was interesting. But to be honest, I personally don't see the mind of masipa being this devious. JMO!

From memory it was LUX V.

 

[vansleuths]

Hi cw....................it's not sarcasm I'm genuinely feeling sorry for the guy for what he has done to his life and his family and friends.

Hope that answers your question as I can feel the animosity toward my statement..............or was I wrong?

44Allan, you're not alone, I feel for Pistorius as well. There are no winners in a murder trial. Understandably, the Steenkamps are the biggest losers because their loss was due to no fault of their own.

However, the Pistorius family have also lost big time.

 

[JudgeJudi]

Robyn Curnow ‏@RobynCurnowCNN
Arnold Pistorius on the appeal: we take note of the announcement made by the state. Legal process must take it's course #OscarPistorius

Robyn Curnow, just like Kelly Phelps, is another Pistorian. The interesting part about her comment is that there is no opinion. During the trial the two of them always had very strong opinions on how well OP was doing ... when he wasn't doing well at all ... and made ludicrous biased comments that you didn't see from the majority of all the other journos, and there were many of those.

 

[vansleuths]

Personally, I think opportunity of a re-trial would be great although I think it's very, very remote. It's the only way we would ever get to dolus directus.

Not sure all the ear witnesses would feel the same- after the way they were treated in court in Cross exam.

And how on earth would the Defence find any credible experts- they already scraped the bottom of that barrel and it's come up dry.

Agreed - declaration of "bobbins" will be made and then more:jail:

Also, re Zweibel's interesting post upthread - prison could have been the treatment OP needed, but after the appeal announcement I can't see him settling down to do his time at all.
Doubt the "venerable" OP will be quite so keen to run his prison Literacy classes now- which is probably a good thing! What was he going to teach them - Oscar speak?

BIB, if there was a retrial, the PT would be more prepared, but so would the DT. It's unlikely the DT would have the likes of Wolmeran and Dixon the second time around

 

[JudgeJudi]

Whoever visits him in prison next week better bring another couple of bags ... one with very large boxes of tissues and another with towels because tissues won't be enough.

 

[JudgeJudi]

Maybe Mr Fossil could send his research to the Steenkamps or their lawyer, De Bruyn.

If they win the case, would it be a debt against OP that he would have to pay later or would family have to find the money to pay? I wonder how much money was associated with that USB stick - offshore? I can't believe that OP is broke.

Just on the question of money, Arnold posted R 1 million ($US 91,323). Now that OP's trial is over and he's in prison, Arnold will be refunded this money. In some countries a small portion, say 3%, is retained by the government, but the remainder should be refunded to him within a matter of weeks, probably less than 6.

 

[Cherwell]

BIB, if there was a retrial, the PT would be more prepared, but so would the DT. It's unlikely the DT would have the likes of Wolmeran and Dixon the second time around

A retrial would be most undesirable. He would have had time to figure out where he needs to polish up his lies.

Whoever visits him in prison next week better bring another couple of bags ... one with very large boxes of tissues and another with towels because tissues won't be enough.

And plenty of toilet rolls.

 

[JudgeJudi]

So I am assuming that this State Appeal will not cost OP any money as he does not have to be represented by a lawyer. Is that correct?

There is always an advocate for the defendant and both advocates will present Heads of Argument. The appeal process is costly. A full transcript of the entire proceedings has to be provided to each member of the full bench, and this consists of 3 or 5 judges. I don't know what other costs are involved. From what I've seen, the appeal itself usually only takes a couple of days and a decision is made within a matter of days. OP will not be required to attend. Obviously it's going to take quite a long time for all the judges to read the full transcript, and they must read it in its entirety.

As this is such an important case for SA, I'm hoping it will be a 5 judge bench. Each judge is required to provide a judgment with reasons as to how he/she reached their decision. The decision will be that reached by the majority. When the judgment is delivered, it will be available for everyone to read it as before, however only one judgment will be published and at the end will be a summary of what the other judges said.

Masipa will not be one of the judges hearing the appeal.

I think it will probably take 12-18 months before it's heard in the Supreme Court of Appeal.

 

[JudgeJudi]

I definitely think I should repost this now

 

[JudgeJudi]

Not sure about appeal being reason, I interpreted Dadics post re Steenkamps referring to the way media covered the extracts from her book, in particular the intimate revelations. Possibly more directed to the reactions on social media - there was some disgusting comments from OP supporters . . . and/or adressing Batemans tweet with Oscars whatsapp ?


I feel - and hope for them - the Steenkamps won't be too unhappy with the appeal. At least they don't have to attend, and it's not public held court sessions. At least that is how I understood.

I very much hope your last BIB will backfire heavily on them !

And YES, it's a decision of huge importance for women in SA !!!

I've never heard of a Court of Appeal hearing being heard in a closed court. Courts strive to show transparency and in this particular trial SA was defending its own justice system.

 

[geevee]

IMO it just goes to show that he should have pleaded guilty to murder in the first place and saved his money.

THIS IS KARMA (But only if the appeal is SUCCESSFUL, of course, which I predict it will be.)

I am so glad he will not be out on bail too awaiting this. I think they will want to keep him in prison until the results of the Appeal are known.

BBM

It's still a big helping of Karma, think how forlorn and afraid he'll be every moment from now until the appeal is heard knowing he may be stuck inside there for years instead of a few paltry months.

 

[JudgeJudi]

BBC getting it wrong again. We used to be proud of the BBC, now it's a continual embarrassment.

"Pistorius was charged by the prosecution with the pre-meditated murder of Ms Steenkamp, a model and law graduate. He was acquitted of this and the lesser murder charge of dolus eventualis."

No, he was just charged with murder. There is only one type of murder charge in SA. How many more times. :facepalm:

I absolutely agree with your comments re the BBC. Once upon a time when we travelled we always watched the BBC. It was the premier news channel in those days. What on earth has happened to it? Lack of funds? I read where they were sacking hundreds of their staff, and now you're lucky to see their top international correspondents a couple of times a week. When there was a major event it was covered 24/7. Now you get 30 minutes of "news", 7 or 8 minutes of ads, 10 or more minutes devoted to sports and weather. Then the next 2 half hour shows are ... sport and something else. I never watch it any more. It's totally redundant, ill-informed not to mention biased.

 

[newone]

Thanks for helping. I hadn't realised it wasn't working properly. I've tested the links with Chrome and IE11 and in both instances the files open immediately for me without having to click anything else.

I've now added a separate tab in each of the spreadsheets that provides links to all the other resources, so once you're in one you can easily find the others. Have still to add the same facility to the Word documents (the witness location maps).

Here's a reminder of what's available:

Phone usage charts GPRS and call charts for each phone (0020, 4949, 5353) derived from displayed ZZ exhibits
Timeline Covers 13-14 February 2013
Witness locations (aerial) Google Earth view, showing where the witnesses live and empty plots at the time
Witness locations (graphic) A graphic version of the above, with Guard Track locations indicated
Witness testimony analysis A detailed analysis of the witnesses testimony as given
Witness testimony analysis 2 An analysis of the witness testimony based on Johnson's call time being inaccurate (a possible Prosecution chronology)

These files, especially 'Witness testimony analysis 2', are updated frequently so it's worth checking them out every now and again. They're put up for discussion purposes and I welcome additions, corrections and alternative views.

impressive how well you have organized this valuable information!

thank you --

 

[JudgeJudi]

Remember back right after the verdict, but before the sentencing someone here at WS wrote a post about how the verdict was possibly a clever ploy by Masipa herself - she wanted to ensure that the PT appeals the CH verdict so that it could be overturned to murder. Had JM given a harsher sentence, the DT would possibly have appealed, and subsequently get a lesser sentence. The speculation was that Masipa wanted to guarantee a murder sentence, but could only get it if she gave a lesser verdict, with high hopes that the PT appeals.

Does anyone else remember this? I wouldn't know where to start searching for this post, but I thought it was interesting. But to be honest, I personally don't see the mind of masipa being this devious. JMO!

That was me Apples, and I still believe she's devious but for a totally different reason now. A lot of water has gone under the bridge since then. My view is that she's more shrewd than a lot of people give her credit for. She specifically drew a line down the middle, always my worst fear, and deliberately chose to give him 5 years whereby he may be able to serve only 1/6 of the sentence, i.e. 10 months. Had she sentenced him to 6 years, he would have been incarcerated for 3 before being allowed home under correctional supervision.

Nel had brilliant heads of argument, and everyone said so. She had to choose her sentence very, very carefully because she didn't want him imprisoned at all and that's why she deliberately gave 5 years. She made such a point and laboured it over and over again that she had to create a balance. In my opinion there could only be a "semblance" of balance, if you could ever call it that, if he was incarcerated, actually in prison, for 5 years.

Whatever reputation she had has been forever tarnished, not only in her own country but around the world. Not everyone in the world knew the name Oscar Pistorius and what he was, but everyone knows his name now as well as the name of Masipa herself. I'd be just cringing and, to use's OP's word, "mortified" if I were in her shoes.

 

[newone]

An interesting view on the case. What if roles had been switched ?

http://www.theage.com.au/comment/imagine-if-reeva-steenkamp-had-shot-and-killed-oscar-pistorius-20141026-11bzxk.htm

Thank you for providing the link to this story. The issue of ''if the roles had been reversed'' is one that has bothered me.