Post sentencing discussion

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Anyone else had any dreams related to this trial or related to any of the players in this trial.
Last night i had the most vivid dream that Gerrie Nel was cross examining Gerry McCann, woke up very disappointed.

I've only had one and that was the day OP went to prison. That night I dreamt that I was in prison on top of a double bunk. There were no bars, it was just a long room and I didn't see any other inmates. As I looked down from my bunk a man and a woman sauntered past who were obviously visitors. As I was getting off the bunk I saw Nel walk by so I followed him. He went to a little kiosk in the corner of the room and bought himself a snack. I told him I had no money so he bought one for me too. I imagine he would do that because that's the kind of guy he is.
 
'First time offender before The Law'. Agree soozieqtips: the first time he was held to account before The SA Law. :goodpost:

he was found guilty of two offences that happened at different times, so how can he be a first time offender for both. the tasha's offence came first... so surely for the ch he is not a first time offender. baffling.
 
Oh dear I think we are all loosing it !! My husband is fully aware I cannot watch or listen to OP without a stiff drink in ones hand. When he learnt of the appeal - he bought me a REMOTE CONTROL ESKY stacked with gin and tonic, do I have a problem nahhh !!!!
 
he was found guilty of two offences that happened at different times, so how can he be a first time offender for both. the tasha's offence came first... so surely for the ch he is not a first time offender. baffling.
BIB - it's strange, isn't it? So you can be found guilty of multiple crimes, but if there's only one trial, they count as a first-time offence?? How ridiculous is that!
 
I have followed it since June, 2007 but rarely these days. I just lurk now to keep up to date with what is going on. Yes Gerry McCann is the father of Madeleine McCann who IMO is a much better liar and a more seriously narcissistic than even OP!

Wow - thank you for that. I have never searched for it on WS, I must have a look.
 
Wow - thank you for that. I have never searched for it on WS, I must have a look.

We are not allowed to discuss the Madeleine McCann case on WS due to possible libel problems. WS used to have threads on MM but they closed them down. They have one now about Brenda, the supposed troll, who committed suicide a month ago after Sky News exposed her on TV. She was not a troll. It is very sad.
 
We are not allowed to discuss the Madeleine McCann case on WS due to possible libel problems. WS used to have threads on MM but they closed them down. They have one now about Brenda, the supposed troll, who committed suicide a month ago after Sky News exposed her on TV. She was not a troll. It is very sad.

Thank you Estelle.
 
We the people of South Africa and people of the world did not accept the court’s judgment. The State is now appealing Oscar’s conviction and sentence. Accept this as fact. We embrace this opportunity for justice to not only be done but seen to be done. Accept that the court of appeal will not be influenced by the crying, vomiting, and general histrionics demonstrated by Oscar in the court a quo.

You complained that the trial was being televised. This decision was made by a judge who said, “Court proceedings are in fact public and this objective must be recognised”. The defence legal team fiercely opposed it, saying it would infringe on Oscar’s rights and distort proceedings, yet they failed to appeal the judge’s ruling. You and your family revelled in the media attention when he was a famous athlete. He courted the media in order to gain hugely lucrative sponsorships. Celebrities use every opportunity to use the media for financial gains, but that comes at a price and that price is privacy. Once he fell from grace, you emphatically denied every article relating to his misdeeds. Unfortunately, you can’t run with the fox and hunt with the hounds.

You asked the media and public to accept Judge Masipa’s judgment. Perhaps you will be gracious enough to accept another court’s findings.

This has been an incredibly hard and painful process for everyone, the Steenkamp family, your family, the people of South Africa and the general public worldwide. It is now time for Oscar to embrace this opportunity to pay back to society.

We are all emotionally drained. The case that was originally set down for 3 weeks has dragged out for 7 months due to the mendacity, deceitfulness and snowball of lies told by Oscar coupled with virtually all the defence witnesses who were either biased, grossly incompetent or in fact not experts at all.

You criticised the State for trying to find Oscar guilty of premeditated murder and the collateral damage caused by that persistence. The State was endeavouring to find the truth and prove that he was guilty of murder. The “collateral damage” as you call it, was due to his persistence in lying and changing his version several times.

One of the most distressful parts for Reeva’s family and the public throughout this whole trial was the refusal by Oscar and the defence to be truthful, honest and transparent with the court.

We too hope that Oscar will start his own healing process. Now he’s unable to yield to temptation and recklessness, perhaps as a family you can support and guide him as he serves his sentence.

You live in the Rainbow Nation, and somewhere over the rainbow dreams really can come true. If this is so, justice will prevail not only for Reeva but for all the women of South Africa.
 
This is an appropriate time to repost this excerpt from Lisa's interview with Judge Greenland.

" ... the court misdirected itself in applying law, in applying the test known as dolus eventualis because she stated very, very clearly, and indeed that, that she was finding him not guilty on the basis that it could not be found that when he fired he might foresee that he would kill Reeva Steenkamp. That was a misdirection, a complete utter misdirection on her part. The fact that she came back the very next day and changed the wording formulation of that test will not save the misdirection on appeal. As a judicial officer you can correct yourself immediately after you say something because it can be assumed that you just simply either misread your notes or you misstated what you intended to say, but in this case it is obvious that the court made a fundamental mistake, a misdirection in law, and as a result of the hoo-ha that happened that night of all the legal eagles and legal world, then came back and attempt to retrieve the situation. The Appeal Court in my respectful view cannot allow that. It has to say the court made a mistake – it was confused about what test to apply”.
 
Transcript of update from NPA spokesperson, Nathi Mncube posted on 27 Oct. Mr Fossil kindly provided the Youtube link on p.39. I think this sort of interview is best transcribed to avoid going back and forth with the video.

Q. What’s the process or the steps that will need to be followed from this point forward?

A. Well, the first step is that we have to prepare our papers, which we are busy with at this point in time. We’ll then have to file those papers with the Registrar of the High Court. The application for leave to appeal will then have to be heard. If it’s granted we’ll then, of course, wait for the matter to be heard at the Supreme Court of Appeal. So that will all depend on whether the application that we’ll be lodging with the court will be successful or not.

Q. What sort of timeframes are we looking at?

A. Well, we don’t really have the timeframe but we have undertaken that we will try to speed up the process and lodge the papers as soon as possible. We think we should be able to do that within the next 6 or 7 days from now on and hopefully the latest should be Monday, the 3rd of November 2014.

Q. Is Judge Masipa’s interpretation of murder on dolus eventualis the bone of contention here?

A. Well, we are not going to disclose our arguments at this point in time. As I’ve said earlier, we have not lodged our papers. It will become evident in our papers what is the bone of contention and which aspect of the law we’re going to argue and why we’re arguing that way, save to say that of course as we all know, that as NPA, you can only appeal on the question of law, and of course that is what we are doing at this point in time. But also, we are not just appealing the conviction. We are also appealing the sentence. So we are going to make sure that when we go before Judge Masipa to argue for the leave to appeal, that we are prepared to – we are well-prepared, and of course, we are able to present a very sound argument in law before her.

Q. What sort of judgment would be suitable for this case in particular? What is the NPA looking forward to?

A. Well, we have to look back to at what we charged him with initially. We had charged Mr Pistorius with premeditated murder, and of course when we were arguing you will recall that our argument on whether he should be convicted or not was that he should be convicted of murder. Of course we did say after he was acquitted on the charge of murder and only convicted on culpable homicide, we did indicate that we respected that decision but that we felt that we held a different view and we thought that the outcome would have been different. We have then had the matter finalised on the 20th of October. We indicated again that we wanted a sentence at least a minimum of 10 years for the culpable homicide and the reason for that was that we felt that Mr Pistorius was grossly negligent in the manner that he committed the offence. So our view was that the only suitable sentence was 10 years, at least a minimum of 10 years’ imprisonment. So we got half of that and we did not get a conviction on premeditated murder. We think that, as I said, we do have grounds in law to appeal the conviction and the sentence.

Q. If the Appeals Court rules in the NPA’s favour, will Oscar Pistorius’s jail term automatically be lengthened? What is the process thereafter?

A. Well, we do not want to jump the gun. I think that what we think what we want to do right now is to make sure that we succeed with the leave to appeal, and when that is granted, we’ll then wait for the matter to be heard at the Supreme Court of Appeal. But of course, in the event that we are successful with this move, it means that the sentence will automatically have to change. But as I said, if that doesn’t happen, we’re still gonna go and argue that the sentence that was imposed, in our view is not an appropriate one when one takes into account that he was convicted of culpable homicide but he was grossly negligent, and according to the judge, he actually – his act bordered on dolus eventualis.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jo_mjQpcii4&feature=youtu.be

Before anyone states that he's wrong saying he was charged with premeditated murder, let me explain ...

The charge document says:

p.1 "The applicant is charged with MURDER.

p.2 The State argues that the applicant is charged with an offence referred to in schedule 6

Murder, when

(a) It was pre-planned or premeditated;"

The charge was murder and p.2 is only describing the type of murder.

The application will be made on or about 3 November. This is not the date of the appeal. Judge Masipa will only be deciding whether to grant leave or not. If she refuses this, the NPA can still make an application for review (I think with the SCA itself) for leave to appeal. Judge Masipa will not be one of the judges hearing the appeal.

http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/03/02/oscar-pistorius-charging-documents/

Criminal Appeals
The Supreme Court of Appeal is the court of appeal in respect of appeals and questions of law reserved in connection with criminal cases heard by a high court, except in cases where a court granting leave to appeal is satisfied that the appeal does not require the attention of the Supreme Court of Appeal. In such cases it directs that the appeal be heard by a full court.

http://www.justice.gov.za/sca/aboutsca.htm

In terms of section 12 of the Supreme Court Act, the quorum of judges for both civil and criminal appeals in the Supreme Court of Appeal is generally five judges, and the judgment of the majority is the judgment of the court.

http://www.northernlaw.co.za/import...tutional_court_judgment/Jurisdiction.LSSA.pdf

I just wanted to say thanks for taking the time to transcribe this, I picked up more reading this then watching the video. Thanks again
 
I really wish we could learn a little more about the day in the life of Oscar these days.

Some were saying that he spent 23 hours a day in a single person cell, true/false?
Does he have a TV/radio - yes/no?
If he is in his cell 23 hours a day, how does he spend his time, what does he do?
 
Vansleuths, with all the contradictory info out there, I'm sure we'll hear:

1) Reports that OP just stays in his cell sobbing day & night.
2) Reports that OP is the social butterfly of the hospital wing, out & about, flirting with the nurses.
3) And.. everything in between!
 
This was published on 26 Feb 2013. Some of the information is inaccurate - "It also emerged on Sunday that police told Reeva's family that Oscar Pistorius crushed his girlfriend's skull with a cricket bat before shooting her dead. ... But grieving relatives who saw her body before Tuesday's cremation in Port Elizabeth described horrific injuries from the cricket bat, and entry wounds from 9mm bullets fired by Pistorius".

The following certainly sparked my interest.

"Miss Steenkamp is seen grinning as security guards let her drive her Mini Cooper into the Silver Woods estate on the outskirts of Pretoria just before 6pm.

Ten minutes later, Paralympic champion Pistorius is also shown arriving in his white BMW.

He uses a lane that is further away from the CCTV camera and it does not capture his facial expression.

According to police, soon after the recording was taken the couple started arguing so loudly that his neighbours heard them 'shouting and screaming'.

I've read that the police had been called previously and a policewoman on Youtube on the 14th said there had been other incidents (plural), one obviously being the Cassidy Taylor-Memmory one, but I always put a second event has having occurred on a totally different day/month/year. If this is correct, why haven't we heard of it before? Maybe it was brushed under the carpet at the time, OP being who he, just like other incidents that have disappeared. If true, why didn't these neighbours testify? It is possible it happened on the day but this is the only time I've seen this.

http://www.fijitimes.com/story.aspx?id=226308
 
We the people of South Africa and people of the world did not accept the court’s judgment. The State is now appealing Oscar’s conviction and sentence. Accept this as fact. We embrace this opportunity for justice to not only be done but seen to be done. Accept that the court of appeal will not be influenced by the crying, vomiting, and general histrionics demonstrated by Oscar in the court a quo.

You complained that the trial was being televised. This decision was made by a judge who said, “Court proceedings are in fact public and this objective must be recognised”. The defence legal team fiercely opposed it, saying it would infringe on Oscar’s rights and distort proceedings, yet they failed to appeal the judge’s ruling. You and your family revelled in the media attention when he was a famous athlete. He courted the media in order to gain hugely lucrative sponsorships. Celebrities use every opportunity to use the media for financial gains, but that comes at a price and that price is privacy. Once he fell from grace, you emphatically denied every article relating to his misdeeds. Unfortunately, you can’t run with the fox and hunt with the hounds.

You asked the media and public to accept Judge Masipa’s judgment. Perhaps you will be gracious enough to accept another court’s findings.

This has been an incredibly hard and painful process for everyone, the Steenkamp family, your family, the people of South Africa and the general public worldwide. It is now time for Oscar to embrace this opportunity to pay back to society.

We are all emotionally drained. The case that was originally set down for 3 weeks has dragged out for 7 months due to the mendacity, deceitfulness and snowball of lies told by Oscar coupled with virtually all the defence witnesses who were either biased, grossly incompetent or in fact not experts at all.

You criticised the State for trying to find Oscar guilty of premeditated murder and the collateral damage caused by that persistence. The State was endeavouring to find the truth and prove that he was guilty of murder. The “collateral damage” as you call it, was due to his persistence in lying and changing his version several times.

One of the most distressful parts for Reeva’s family and the public throughout this whole trial was the refusal by Oscar and the defence to be truthful, honest and transparent with the court.

We too hope that Oscar will start his own healing process. Now he’s unable to yield to temptation and recklessness, perhaps as a family you can support and guide him as he serves his sentence.

You live in the Rainbow Nation, and somewhere over the rainbow dreams really can come true. If this is so, justice will prevail not only for Reeva but for all the women of South Africa.

:goodpost: Why don't you send it to the SA media?
 
James Grant ‏@CriminalLawZA 21m21 minutes ago
@rulanda76 I would not have agreed to work with Adv Nel if I thought his judgment and ethics were questionable.

James Grant ‏@CriminalLawZA 11h11 hours ago
@kati_soph Yes, I believe so - think there was an error of law on that decision (unlawful possession of ammunition) also.

James Grant @CriminalLawZA · Oct 27
Not ignoring everyone - my wife (Michelle) has gone off to HIV R4P conference & left me in charge of 9 mnth old twins & our 2 YO. Help!!! /
 
Unsuccessful Attempts to Justify Judge Masipa’s Errors (Revised & Expanded)
by James Grant


In conclusion, we have seen several attempts to justify Masipa’s judgment, all of which seem to fail.

It does not make Masipa’s judgment right to pretend that her reasons were reasons that would make her judgement right:

that she decided that the accused had not accepted the risk of killing the deceased,

that she recognised putative private defence, or

that she found that the accused only intended to injure the intended target.

These were not her reasons and, however valid they may be, it doesn’t help to pretend that they were her reasons.

It also doesn’t help to attempt to justify the distortion of our law on dolus indeterminatus and dolus eventualis applied to error in objecto and the logical error made by Masipa.

The law on dolus indeterminatus and error in objecto is clear. Nominal/name identity is irrelevant – for that very reason it cannot help the accused if he thought that it was B behind the door; nor can it help an accused who argues that he thought that it was not C. The identity of whoever was behind the door remains irrelevant – and the indictment did not need to remind the judge that it is not relevant.

Finally, there is no reason to ignore this clear law (that nominal/name identity is irrelevant) just because the scenario triggers the rules relating to both error in objecto and putative private defence. There appears to be nothing to save us from the inevitable conclusion that Masipa made errors of law and errors of logic.

http://criminallawza.net/
 
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