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And getting in touch with some dude to ditch the body, after lugging it all over creation.

That's the part I can't get past, I think if someone saw a half naked baby being carried around at all hours of the night it would have been reported by more than just a couple of people. It doesn't make sense to me. I know I would report some strange person carrying a baby around in just a diaper after midnight. I totally think it's something someone thought they saw and snowballed from there but that's just my opinion. The only way I believe that really happened is IF and that's a big IF, Baby Lisa was already "gone" and someone was taking her to dispose of her but that would be too risky too. I just think it would attract to much attention. That's the problem with this case so much is rumor and not much has come from LE and I have a hard time believing rumors and second hand information. I wish LE would share more w/us but I also respect the fact that they are keeping the leads to themselves in this case.
 
That's the problem with this case so much is rumor and not much as come from LE and I have a hard time believing rumors and second hand information.

In this case it's firsthand information, because the witnesses have come forth and publicly made their declarations. These sightings don't really fit well with a "mother did it" scenario, but nonetheless they have to be taken into consideration.
 
In this case it's firsthand information, because the witnesses have come forth and publicly made their declarations. These sightings don't really fit well with a "mother did it" scenario, but nonetheless they have to be taken into consideration.

That is true John, I guess it just depends on how credible one finds the witness. The Motorcycle Guy seemed credible to me at first then the story changed somewhere along the way, maybe it was media snips where at first the baby went from no clothes & diaper to wearing a shirt & diaper but I felt he had no reason to make anything up. I only wish LE would say yah or nah about the sighting. I'm still on the fence about the lady looking out the window while her husband left for work, as far as I know, we still haven't heard his story or at least I haven't.

Guess what I'm trying to say is I wish LE would confirm or deny some of this information that's being put out there but then again that's why they are LE and I'm not, lol.
 
That is true John, I guess it just depends on how credible one finds the witness. The Motorcycle Guy seemed credible to me at first then the story changed somewhere along the way, maybe it was media snips where at first the baby went from no clothes & diaper to wearing a shirt & diaper but I felt he had no reason to make anything up. I only wish LE would say yah or nah about the sighting. I'm still on the fence about the lady looking out the window while her husband left for work, as far as I know, we still haven't heard his story or at least I haven't.

There is a tendency for people to embellish their stories once they get into the limelight, so I wouldn't try to read too much into the changes in the witnesses' stories. I look at the generalities and leave the specifics alone. Both saw a man carrying a baby, and that's really the extent of it; anything else can be chalked up to the vagaries of eyewitness descriptions. The 12:15 couple actually reported the sighting next day; that's how unusual they thought it.

Incidentally, there's an interesting article from the AP about a woman and her boyfriend arrested for leaving a one-year-old baby alone at night in the woods, where it was later found alive. This is something that bothers me about the sighting at 48th and Randolph. If that were the abductor, and he had been carrying Baby Lisa around for the past several hours, he might very well have given up and just left her somewhere, where she might die of exposure.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/11/2...dler-found-in-woods-arrested/?test=latestnews
 
That's the part I can't get past, I think if someone saw a half naked baby being carried around at all hours of the night it would have been reported by more than just a couple of people. It doesn't make sense to me. I know I would report some strange person carrying a baby around in just a diaper after midnight. I totally think it's something someone thought they saw and snowballed from there but that's just my opinion. The only way I believe that really happened is IF and that's a big IF, Baby Lisa was already "gone" and someone was taking her to dispose of her but that would be too risky too. I just think it would attract to much attention. That's the problem with this case so much is rumor and not much has come from LE and I have a hard time believing rumors and second hand information. I wish LE would share more w/us but I also respect the fact that they are keeping the leads to themselves in this case.

I know alot of people think that Deb called MW number to get ahold of Jersey to take a dead Lisa to dispose of her..but that doesnt work IMO cause of the fact Jersey didnt live at MW residence, and if he was disposing of Lisa why would there have been sightings for a 2 hour span..if he was just the person to dispose for Deb and had nothing to do with the death , then im guessing instead of going to the sprinkler house with Lisa like was witnessed he would have just left her deep in the woods..not carry her around. I can only see him taking a live baby to the sprinkler house.
 
There is a tendency for people to embellish their stories once they get into the limelight, so I wouldn't try to read too much into the changes in the witnesses' stories. I look at the generalities and leave the specifics alone. Both saw a man carrying a baby, and that's really the extent of it; anything else can be chalked up to the vagaries of eyewitness descriptions. The 12:15 couple actually reported the sighting next day; that's how unusual they thought it.

Incidentally, there's an interesting article from the AP about a woman and her boyfriend arrested for leaving a one-year-old baby alone at night in the woods, where it was later found alive. This is something that bothers me about the sighting at 48th and Randolph. If that were the abductor, and he had been carrying Baby Lisa around for the past several hours, he might very well have given up and just left her somewhere, where she might die of exposure.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/11/2...dler-found-in-woods-arrested/?test=latestnews

Just read that story in the link. Wow, mom of the year award. Thank goodness the baby was found safe. It's crazy that people will lie to save their own azz and not think to save their own defenseless baby.
 
I know alot of people think that Deb called MW number to get ahold of Jersey to take a dead Lisa to dispose of her..but that doesnt work IMO cause of the fact Jersey didnt live at MW residence, and if he was disposing of Lisa why would there have been sightings for a 2 hour span..if he was just the person to dispose for Deb and had nothing to do with the death , then im guessing instead of going to the sprinkler house with Lisa like was witnessed he would have just left her deep in the woods..not carry her around. I can only see him taking a live baby to the sprinkler house.

At this point, I'm inclined to think that Jersey was there that night. So DB just didn't call that number to try and contact him to help in a cover up of a dead BL. That scenario just doesn't fit for me. How would she know to contact him there? Why would she trust him? However, I can believe that if he was there, that he might have been involved. We're in this together kind of thing. He may not have even known about BL, just involved in getting rid of the cell phones. I really don't know, but I can see that scenario fitting better with what we know.

All MOO
 
I am still on the fence about this case, but I have an observation to make. If a planned kidnapping was what took place, I don't think the kidnapper would steal the phones. If he was meeting an accomplice to hand Lisa off, he would have had his own phone, not depend on finding cell phones to steal in the house.
 
I am still on the fence about this case, but I have an observation to make. If a planned kidnapping was what took place, I don't think the kidnapper would steal the phones. If he was meeting an accomplice to hand Lisa off, he would have had his own phone, not depend on finding cell phones to steal in the house.

Yep, and this is why I can't buy into the Jersey as the lone abductor taking a live BL to sell as to what really happened. Even if it was just a crime of opportunity, there is no way in he77 that he would use those phones!
 
There is a tendency for people to embellish their stories once they get into the limelight, so I wouldn't try to read too much into the changes in the witnesses' stories. I look at the generalities and leave the specifics alone. Both saw a man carrying a baby, and that's really the extent of it; anything else can be chalked up to the vagaries of eyewitness descriptions. The 12:15 couple actually reported the sighting next day; that's how unusual they thought it.

Incidentally, there's an interesting article from the AP about a woman and her boyfriend arrested for leaving a one-year-old baby alone at night in the woods, where it was later found alive. This is something that bothers me about the sighting at 48th and Randolph. If that were the abductor, and he had been carrying Baby Lisa around for the past several hours, he might very well have given up and just left her somewhere, where she might die of exposure.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/11/2...dler-found-in-woods-arrested/?test=latestnews

That happened to my very first foster baby. His mother and her boyfriend were murdered in their home. Baby Boy was taken by this person and left in the woods just off the side of the road strapped in his carseat a good distance away.
Someone walking by heard him crying.
The murder was not related to the baby being taken. I can't go into detail because it's confidential . I guess the murderer didn't want to actually kill the baby ,but realized he couldn't keep him or be seen with him.
He was caught TG.:furious:
ETA I don't really know why the murderer didn't leave Baby Boy at his home. I think this person may have been high and not thinking things through.That was never disclosed. This was not the baby's father ,BTW.
 
I am still on the fence about this case, but I have an observation to make. If a planned kidnapping was what took place, I don't think the kidnapper would steal the phones. If he was meeting an accomplice to hand Lisa off, he would have had his own phone, not depend on finding cell phones to steal in the house.

What I am on the fence about is who,besides DB ,is involved.
Your observation makes a lot of sense. Most people know they can be tracked by a cell phone. Why take that risk? So DB couldn't call 911? :waitasec: That doesn't make sense.The person would have to know there was no land line in the home,and besdes,DB could just run next door.

Because of the height of the crib mattress ,I don't believe Baby Lisa was sleeping in it.
That makes me wonder why the neighbor would possibly lie about checking on her, which may tie in to JI's "cheating" answer. Not all woman cheat with another man .
 
What I am on the fence about is who,besides DB ,is involved.
Your observation makes a lot of sense. Most people know they can be tracked by a cell phone. Why take that risk? So DB couldn't call 911? :waitasec: That doesn't make sense.The person would have to know there was no land line in the home,and besdes,DB could just run next door.

Because of the height of the crib mattress ,I don't believe Baby Lisa was sleeping in it.
That makes me wonder why the neighbor would possibly lie about checking on her, which may tie in to JI's "cheating" answer. Not all woman cheat with another man .


BBM

OMG !!!!!!! You think THIS is why Baby Lisa died??
 
THIS is another theory I had early on, (however, I got a TOS for it.) Perhaps, and I just say perhaps, JI thought DB had been cheating on him and he wanted, insisted on a parternity test. If DB had been unfaithful, this could be the reason BL is missing. I hope not.
 
I have quite a few theories of the case, but they all come back to DB. Too many coincidences for her not to be involved. imo. Yes, she was drinking, by her own admission and in the opinion of neighbor Shane, but her memory lapses all concern Lisa and her shifting timeline centers around the last time she saw her baby. That, coupled with her reluctance to be re interviewed by LE or to talk to local media, either to keep the case in the news or to plea to a possible abductor makes it difficult for me to believe she isn't involved. Then there's her alternately defiant and evasive language during the drinking confession interviews which leads me to consider JI. My theory is that JI is not an accomplice or a perpetrator and is not actively involved in a cover up. I think he's got his suspicions, but doesn't want to face up to the possibility, not wanting to lose more when he's lost so much already. DB's take charge attitude during the interviews, and the way JI defers to her makes me think he's passively just going along, either because he really doesn't want to know what happened since there can be no good outcome or because DB has convinced him it was an accident and she was afraid they would lose the boys.

Then there's neighbor lady SB. I think she's going to go along with whatever DB says. I wonder about her husband. Would a newly separated husband who doesn't really want to leave his family be persuaded to help out his wife and her friend if an "accident" occurred? There were those "good night, I love you" texts exchanged between the husband and wife. The husband lived in that neighborhood too and could possibly know any of the folks connected to MW's shared cell phone. I think everyone is assuming from what Jim Spellman has said that SB's husband is the person picked out of a photo lineup by motorcyclist MT and is not alibied for the night. That is not confirmed, but is the widely held speculation.

Then we have Jersey and MW, Dane and others associated with the neighborhood house. I agree with Hambirg that Jersey might have dropped by. The lady next to the "sprinkler" house thinks he must have turned off the sprinklers altho she didn't see him. If true, he was out and about and could have been drawn to two young women, drinking on the stoop. Maybe he was an unwitting accomplice in getting rid of the phones. Something like, "we lost our service and are going with another company who'll give us new phones with the contract. You want these?" A possible exchange for cash, goods or services or maybe just a freebie. That could explain the call to MW's number and other attempts to use the phone. This wouldn't rule out the possibility of another individual, a relative or neighborhood associate removing Lisa from the house. If DB is involved, I do think she had help.

I don't think MW or Dane have any involvement in a crime that night. I don't see anyway DB is not involved, but that call makes me think that someone from the neighborhood is also involved.

The baby carrying man sightings and the white blob video are the most difficult for me to fit into any theory. Neighbor Lisa's account seems believable, but first it seemed her husband only saw the man, then later that they both saw the same thing. MT's account, despite later additions or embellishments, depending on your view, seems genuine, too. What doesn't make sense is that a sick baby without proper clothing, out on a chilly night, in the arms of a stranger would never cry. It also doesn't make sense that someone would carry around a deceased child all night long, in plain sight. I discounted the white blob video, but John Bull's enhancement of that frame has made me reconsider.
 
What I am on the fence about is who,besides DB ,is involved.
Your observation makes a lot of sense. Most people know they can be tracked by a cell phone. Why take that risk? So DB couldn't call 911? :waitasec: That doesn't make sense.The person would have to know there was no land line in the home,and besdes,DB could just run next door.

Because of the height of the crib mattress ,I don't believe Baby Lisa was sleeping in it.
That makes me wonder why the neighbor would possibly lie about checking on her, which may tie in to JI's "cheating" answer. Not all woman cheat with another man .

You brought up the exact 3 points that I've been thinking hard about!
 
I do not believe LE or social services would leave the other children in their care if there was ANY sniff of evidence against the family IMO. I think this was a crime of opportunity and someone was watching the house and took their chance to grab a baby. Very sad.

Opportunity?

I have to question "opportunity". This perp needs to be playing the lottery. He/she is the luckiest SOB walking the earth.
 
I do not believe LE or social services would leave the other children in their care if there was ANY sniff of evidence against the family IMO. I think this was a crime of opportunity and someone was watching the house and took their chance to grab a baby. Very sad.


I have to question "opportunity". This perp needs to be playing the lottery. He/she is the luckiest SOB walking the earth. The amount of activities that had to occur so he could steal a "baby" is astronomical. He not only had to be watching the house, he had to know the adult was three sheets to the wind, didn't lock her door, and knew no man was going to come home at any moment.

Who steals a ten month old baby?
 
Opportunity?

I have to question "opportunity". This perp needs to be playing the lottery. He/she is the luckiest SOB walking the earth.

This. ^^

IMHO Lisa truly was the victim of an accident, that might well have been prevented by more maturity and responsibility on the mom's behalf.

This making poor Lisa most unlucky :( poor poor baby, May your remains one day be found.
 
At this point, I'm inclined to think that Jersey was there that night. So DB just didn't call that number to try and contact him to help in a cover up of a dead BL. That scenario just doesn't fit for me. How would she know to contact him there? Why would she trust him? However, I can believe that if he was there, that he might have been involved. We're in this together kind of thing. He may not have even known about BL, just involved in getting rid of the cell phones. I really don't know, but I can see that scenario fitting better with what we know.

All MOO

Jersey and MW had only been broken up for three weeks or so, right? It's possible that Jersey, who at one time lived (or flopped) right across the street, gave DB that number. Who knows why... perhaps if she ever needed any "odd jobs" done.

On the night of October 3rd, when she had an "odd" job (more like macabre and criminal), she dialed the number.

This was suggested to me recently: perhaps someone did answer, and DB asked for Jersey and of course he wasn't reachable. Or, no one answered because the call didn't connect. Then, DB took care of that job by herself. I'm still hung up on that though... because that means she would have left the house for some time, and that's huge risk with two sleeping children.
 
I had a dream last night about "the phones", by the way. (oh boy... :waiting:)

Also part of my dream: I was in a brand new high school and had a paper due. Haha! High school was a quarter of a century ago!!
 
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