Pre-meditated or Spur of the Moment?

[Jenifred]

Knowing the time of death would help tremendously in deciding whether I think it was premeditated! I was "told" that Raven left the house at 8:30 to go play soccer and returned shortly before 11:00. Another question that begs for an answer is where was the baby when the police arrived? Would Raven really leave it upstairs if there was a possibility that a stranger killed his wife? If the baby was upstairs, I would speculate he thought there was no longer a danger present in the house. Hmmmm.........

See, if Raven left the house at 8:30, I think that gives him enough time to murder Janet. If the baby was in bed by 7, 7:30 there's a good chunk of time that this could have been accomplished.

IMHO, if I found my spouse on the floor dead, I probably would have pulled the baby out of bed. Anyone agree? I don't know if it would have been noted in the warrant, but the officer that wrote it said that he talked to Raven, but he didn't note if the baby was there with him or not.

 

[ewwwinteresting]

See, if Raven left the house at 8:30, I think that gives him enough time to murder Janet. If the baby was in bed by 7, 7:30 there's a good chunk of time that this could have been accomplished.

IMHO, if I found my spouse on the floor dead, I probably would have pulled the baby out of bed. Anyone agree? I don't know if it would have been noted in the warrant, but the officer that wrote it said that he talked to Raven, but he didn't note if the baby was there with him or not.

It just states that Raven stated his wife was upstairs hurt (which indicates Raven was downstairs at the time the police arrived). I know everybody acts differently to trauma, but if I found my spouse bleeding on the floor, I certainly would have blood all over me trying to find out if they were dead.....trying to save him/her...holding them. AND then I would certainly grab any of my children and run out of the house to safety in case the murderer was still in the residence!

 

[Jenifred]

It just states that Raven stated his wife was upstairs hurt (which indicates Raven was downstairs at the time the police arrived). I know everybody acts differently to trauma, but if I found my spouse bleeding on the floor, I certainly would have blood all over me trying to find out if they were dead.....trying to save him/her...holding them. AND then I would certainly grab any of my children and run out of the house to safety in case the murderer was still in the residence!

I wonder if I'd be too stunned to do anything but call the police. I'd either do that or be covered in blood, like you said. But definitely, the children would be out of the house.

Now, I was just thinking. We haven't even commented on where she was first stabbed. Could it be plausible that she was first stabbed in the back and taken by suprise? Then she turned to look at the perp and they did it again until they were sure she was dead? That would be a likely be a reason why, but we still don't know, that there was no struggle and why there wouldn't be anything trace found under her nails. She didn't have time to fight back or make a mark on the perp.

 

[golfmom]

Now, I was just thinking. We haven't even commented on where she was first stabbed. Could it be plausible that she was first stabbed in the back and taken by suprise? Then she turned to look at the perp and they did it again until they were sure she was dead? That would be a likely be a reason why, but we still don't know, that there was no struggle and why there wouldn't be anything trace found under her nails. She didn't have time to fight back or make a mark on the perp.

That's a really good point, LE has only stated that there were multiple stab wounds and identified only a chest wound.

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

Another question that begs for an answer is where was the baby when the police arrived? Would Raven really leave it upstairs if there was a possibility that a stranger killed his wife? If the baby was upstairs, I would speculate he thought there was no longer a danger present in the house. Hmmmm.........

Exact same thoughts that I've been having. IMO, there is no way whatsoever that a loving & doting parent would leave the child in an upstairs crib after finding his wife brutally murdered in the next room. Then again, I guess that everyone reacts differently, some running around like chickens without heads, but I believe that in most cases, a parent would grab the baby first, and run downstairs to make the call to 911.

I imagine that LE has probably gotten some kind of timeline based on when people had seen Raven that day. TOD will be considered against that time line. I'm sure that they have much more to work with than we do right now. At least I sure hope so!!!

Does anyone else find it odd that one of Raven's neighbors said that she knew everyone in the neighborhood but didn't know them; had never seen them? Did they move in in August? And the baby was also born in August? And they seem to be an outdoors-y couple? Wouldn't they have taken the baby for walks around the neighborhood in the evening? I guess that not everyone does that but I would think that someone like Raven, who himself claims to be outgoing, good at making friends quickly (based on his past experience of moving frequently), would have sought out friends in the area. Reading his journal gave me the impression that that's a part of who he is. I guess that if Janet was shy like people have mentioned, and they had a young baby, they could have just been too busy to seek out friends just yet. Having a new baby does have a way of keeping you busy, and changing your life for a while, (in mostly wonderful ways, of course)!

He's made new friends online recently (although they could be people that he knew prior and just added). Maybe he began to seek out friends online because of that very reason of being too busy with a young baby to really reach out in the neighborhood.

Where was the church that collected money for them? They obviously had established enough of a relationship with the church to get money from them. But the woman in the neighborhood that "know(s) everybody" had never seen the Abaroa family.

Then again, if Janet was indeed shy, and Raven had several soccer teams of which he was a part, I suppose it might not be so odd after all that they hadn't yet made friends in the neighborhood, especially if they weren't looking at this as the place in which they wanted to settle down.

I don't know ... I'm typing myself in circles. Well, if nothing else, maybe my ramblings will spur some ideas in those of you with more organized minds than mine! :crazy:

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

Now, I was just thinking. We haven't even commented on where she was first stabbed. Could it be plausible that she was first stabbed in the back and taken by suprise? Then she turned to look at the perp and they did it again until they were sure she was dead? That would be a likely be a reason why, but we still don't know, that there was no struggle and why there wouldn't be anything trace found under her nails. She didn't have time to fight back or make a mark on the perp.

If she was on the computer IM'ing with someone, she might not have even known that someone was there. I didn't see any mention at all of a chair but there was reference to the desk so it's probably unlikely that she was in the chair at the time of the stabbing unless the chair was removed. ETA: there must have been a chair in there. We've seen pictures of Raven sitting at the desk with Kaiden on his lap. Unless there's another room with a desk. But if they collected evidence from the desk, the wall, and the floor, why wouldn't they have collected evidence from the chair? Maybe the chair is keeping the palm pilot and the computer company somewhere.

Has anyone heard actual facts that there was no evidence under her fingernails? I've only seen a mention from someone saying that a family member in LE told her that Raven is not a POI.

 

[golfmom]

If she was on the computer IM'ing with someone, she might not have even known that someone was there. I didn't see any mention at all of a chair but there was reference to the desk so it's probably unlikely that she was in the chair at the time of the stabbing unless the chair was removed.

Has anyone heard actual facts that there was no evidence under her fingernails? I've only seen a mention from someone saying that a family member in LE told her that Raven is not a POI.

During the interview with Janet's family the TH said that they are still waiting on results from the crime lab. I'm hanging my hat on that.

 

[ewwwinteresting]

Actually, according to Raven's website, Kaiden was born October 17, 2004.

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

Actually, according to Raven's website, Kaiden was born October 17, 2004.

Uh-oh, doesn't our timeline say August? I'll have to look.

ETA: In that case, it's not so odd that they hadn't taken him for walks. It was probably too cold for such a young baby, and Spring had only just started when Janet died.

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

During the interview with Janet's family the TH said that they are still waiting on results from the crime lab. I'm hanging my hat on that.

You're too fast for me! I edited my post, and when I was finished, you had already typed this!

 

[golfmom]

Regarding leaving the baby alone, I found this in the Trials forum . . .

....................
Upon his arrest, Green told police he had dinner with his estranged wife, Stacy Green, and their two children Nov. 2 at her home at 1216 N. Arbogast St., Griffith.

David Green told police that after the children went to bed he told Stacy Green, 29, he was seeing another woman and she became angry. He said she picked up a knife so he kicked her several times to defend himself. He said he put his arm around her neck, squeezed hard and felt something pop before she went limp, according to the probable cause affidavit.

Green said when he laid her on the floor, he saw blood coming from her neck. Lake County Coroner David Pastrick said Stacy Green died of a stab wound to the left side of the neck that cut her right carotid artery and fractured her cervical spine.

Rather than call for help, Green said he washed off the knife and put it back in the drawer, then went to his girlfriend's house for the night.

The next morning Green called his 5-year-old son asking to talk with Mommy. When his son said she couldn't come to the phone, Green repeatedly asked him to get Mommy. The boy finally said Mommy was on the floor and there was blood.

That's when Green called 911.

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

Golfmom, I had forgotten about that disgusting case! This guy set up his own 5 year-old to find his mother's dead & bloody body! Very good illustration of the point - a murderer is not necessarily all that concerned about protecting their children.

 

[ewwwinteresting]

Uh-oh, doesn't our timeline say August? I'll have to look.

ETA: In that case, it's not so odd that they hadn't taken him for walks. It was probably too cold for such a young baby, and Spring had only just started when Janet died.

Yes, the timeline is wrong as far as Kaiden's birth. Also, Raven did not embezzle monies in August. He was charged with 5 counts (July, Sept, Oct, Nov and Dec). I thought I read somewhere he was on vacation in August!

 

[golfmom]

Golfmom, I had forgotten about that disgusting case! This guy set up his own 5 year-old to find his mother's dead & bloody body! Very good illustration of the point - a murderer is not necessarily all that concerned about protecting their children.

Considering there were two children in the house, I was thinking he probably talked on the phone with the oldest ... not that anyone should ever leave a 5 year-old unsupervised!!! ... but what a that guy is! :behindbar

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

Also, Raven did not embezzle monies in August. He was charged with 5 counts (July, Sept, Oct, Nov and Dec). I thought I read somewhere he was on vacation in August!

It probaby shouldn't but that strikes me funny. Didn't he think that if the only month in which money was NOT missing was the month that he was on vacation that someone might be able to put two and two together? :doh: Not such good planning in the case of the embezzlement anyway.

 

[golfmom]

It probaby shouldn't but that strikes me funny. Didn't he think that if the only month in which money was NOT missing was the month that he was on vacation that someone might be able to put two and two together? :doh: Not such good planning in the case of the embezzlement anyway.

Maybe he wanted to wait a month to see if he got away with it.

 

[Jenifred]

Where was the church that collected money for them? They obviously had established enough of a relationship with the church to get money from them. But the woman in the neighborhood that "know(s) everybody" had never seen the Abaroa family.

The money wouldn't have been collected. The congregation wouldn't have collected a fund. There is money in each congregation that is used for welfare purposes. Each congregation, or ward as we call it, has a budget that is given to each separate ward from the headquarters of the church. If there are members that need help with food, rent, clothing, etc. funds given to each congregation can provide it. The bishop wouldn't have asked the congregation to donate. Does this help?

 

[golfmom]

The money wouldn't have been collected. The congregation wouldn't have collected a fund. There is money in each congregation that is used for welfare purposes. Each congregation, or ward as we call it, has a budget that is given to each separate ward from the headquarters of the church. If there are members that need help with food, rent, clothing, etc. funds given to each congregation can provide it. The bishop wouldn't have asked the congregation to donate. Does this help?

This system makes sense, that way if say someone lost their house to a fire, there would be funds on hand to help them. Also, it could provide privacy for those in need ... no one needs to announce before a congregation ... so and so lost their job and was arrested last week and they have a new baby ... dig deep to help this couple out.

 

[ewwwinteresting]

Maybe he wanted to wait a month to see if he got away with it.

Now that makes sense!

 

[OriginalJerseyGirl]

The money wouldn't have been collected. The congregation wouldn't have collected a fund. There is money in each congregation that is used for welfare purposes. Each congregation, or ward as we call it, has a budget that is given to each separate ward from the headquarters of the church. If there are members that need help with food, rent, clothing, etc. funds given to each congregation can provide it. The bishop wouldn't have asked the congregation to donate. Does this help?

I worded it poorly. I just mean the money that the church gave them (that you've explained has been collected over time for this type of purpose). Nevertheless, they had to have some type of relationship with the church. Is it the church as a whole (a national contact you would have to make), or the church that they attended that would give them the money?