Premeditated Murder #972

[Wudge]

Tsk tsk... I still know your position, & your response was to marspiter, who had responded to me, not you, in the first place.

I will likewise sum up my issue: DP removed does not automatically = lack of big evidence. missmybaby's statement cannot be illogical if yours is logical.

We are never going to agree on this, so for the good of the thread I will drop it there. I will continue to maintain that all opinions are valid here; none are absurd. I hope you will allow that. :truce:

Holding that charges by a prosecutor equates to big evidence is scary, frightful and absurd. Still, I've heard jurors say worse.

 

[Brini]

But presenting facts when the other side cannot present their argument at the same time is contrary to our judicial system.
I know if I were on trial for a serious crime I would want all the facts and my rebut released at trial;otherwise it is prejudicial imo.
How much time have we had to pour over KC's defense? none because we don't have it yet. we can see her statements and actions and draw some conclusions but as we all know things are not always as they appear.
Enter my favorite point making youtube #3 is my favorite.
YouTube - Funny Ameriquest Commercials

Point is I'd like to see what the defense has to say.

I appreciate transparency in proceedings and I would want to make sure everything was available at the right time to anyone that wants to review specifics of a case. but the almost gossip like mentality of how this thing goes down is positively frightening to me.
There just has to be a better way to put the information out there but save the innocent people and lend to an impartial jury. Our 24/7 news fix can just be over the top.

Ok now that I have gone so far off topic I am going to give myself a time out.
a long time out.

Why can't the defense put out their side? Can't they THEIR discovery? The state's been asking for it, and it's well past the deadlines.

The defense SAYS it has exonerating evidence, AND proof that SODDI.

BTW_ Thanks a MILLION for the commercials! Now I have to clean split pea soup off my screen!

 

[JBean]

Why can't the defense put out their side? Can't they THEIR discovery? The state's been asking for it, and it's well past the deadlines.

The defense SAYS it has exonerating evidence, AND proof that SODDI.

The trial should be in the courtroom not the media.
ok now I am erally giving myself a TO LOL.

ETA that is why they sequester and admonish a jury. So they cannot be influenced by media reports and water cooler talk.

 

[Wudge]

SNIP

but the almost gossip like mentality of how this thing goes down is positively frightening to me.

SNIP

I simply wanted to highlight those words, because they capture true wisdom.

 

[lizzysf]

The cell phone records might be probative evidence of something, but I have no idea what they prove that relates to the major charges. We don't know when or how Caylee died or what the circumstances surrounding her death were. These are huge gaps in highly relevant and important evidence against the major charges.

What do the cell phone records prove?

What does a video in Blockbuster Video Store, Casey snuggling with her boyfriend, hours after her child is said to have been kidnapped prove?

Yep. The jurors are going to get it.

 

[Horace Finklestein]

In my opinion, it is unfortunate that all States do not have the luxury of the Sunshine laws out there for jury pools. Facts are facts, evidence is evidence, and truth is truth. It is absolute. It is what it is.

If there is a photo, a fingerprint,, computer usage , phone pings, physical or forensic evidence . . . it can serve the prosecution or the defense, but jurors can decide for themselves to BELIEVE, TRUST AND DEFEND these facts, and come to a decision. How can there ever be too much information with which a jury can come to a conclusion??

Stories, impressions, feelings, rememberences, statements can change, collide, differ and can either be true or not true. Again, the Jury decides. That is our system of justice.

True - and instead we get tearful pleas from defense attorneys with books to sell. All of the documents should be available for the jury to review. I agree that the truth is absolute and that the courts' deciding what people can and cannot hear is ridiculous, except maybe in the case of illegally obtained evidence.

 

[JBean]

I simply wanted to highlight those words, because they capture true wisdom.

Haha just to be clear I referring to the whole process and the public at large. More importantly I am referring to the potential jury pool. It almost seems like it would make a verdict appealable!

 

[Brini]

The trial should be in the courtroom not the media.
ok now I am erally giving myself a TO LOL.

ETA that is why they sequester and admonish a jury. So they cannot be influenced by media reports and water cooler talk.

Enjoy it! ;-)

 

[Wudge]

The cell phone records might be probative evidence of something, but I have no idea what they prove that relates to the major charges. We don't know when or how Caylee died or what the circumstances surrounding her death were. These are huge gaps in highly relevant and important evidence against the major charges.

What do the cell phone records prove?

[

What does a video in Blockbuster Video Store, Casey snuggling with her boyfriend, hours after her child is said to have been kidnapped prove?

Yep. The jurors are going to get it.

Do the cellphone records and/or a video and/or snuggling prove Casey committed a premeditated murder?

 

[Brini]

The trial should be in the courtroom not the media.
ok now I am erally giving myself a TO LOL.

ETA that is why they sequester and admonish a jury. So they cannot be influenced by media reports and water cooler talk.

That's fine, but that's the law in FL. That's what we have to deal with.

BTW-- I don't have a dog in this fight.

 

[Brini]

Do the cellphone records and/or a video and/or snuggling prove Casey committed a premeditated murder?

We'll see,... taken with all of the other mountain of circumstantial.

That's the essence of circumstantial-- each piece may not mean much, on its own. But, it's like Gestalt Theory-- the whole is equal to more than the sum of the parts.

 

[Nore]

The cell phone records might be probative evidence of something, but I have no idea what they prove that relates to the major charges. We don't know when or how Caylee died or what the circumstances surrounding her death were. These are huge gaps in highly relevant and important evidence against the major charges.

What do the cell phone records prove?

What does a video in Blockbuster Video Store, Casey snuggling with her boyfriend, hours after her child is said to have been kidnapped prove?

Yep. The jurors are going to get it.

--------------------------------------
lizzy, I am waiting to see what is said about the conversation between Kc.and AL..the cell phone message where she said to A. "if they ever find her,guess who will spend eternity in jail".This may have been in a text message,never heard it mentioned by the LE..I am not up on cell phones and texts, but I can read.This was mentioned very early in the messages, I believe the first batch released.:dance:

 

[celticthyme]

But presenting facts when the other side cannot present their argument at the same time is contrary to our judicial system.
I know if I were on trial for a serious crime I would want all the facts and my rebut released at trial;otherwise it is prejudicial imo.
How much time have we had to pour over KC's defense? none because we don't have it yet. we can see her statements and actions and draw some conclusions but as we all know things are not always as they appear.
Enter my favorite point making youtube #3 is my favorite.
YouTube - Funny Ameriquest Commercials

Point is I'd like to see what the defense has to say.

I appreciate transparency in proceedings and I would want to make sure everything was available at the right time to anyone that wants to review specifics of a case. but the almost gossip like mentality of how this thing goes down is positively frightening to me.
There just has to be a better way to put the information out there but save the innocent people and lend to an impartial jury. Our 24/7 news fix can just be over the top.

Ok now that I have gone so far off topic I am going to give myself a time out.
a long time out.

Jelly . . Love it!

We have had as much time to pour over Casey's defense as we have her prosecution.

There is no defense of triple taping a 3 year old child's airways, putting her in garbage bags wrapped in her own blanket, and dumping her in a swamp at the end of her street.

No defense what so ever. They could have 20 years, and there still would be no defense of this. I feel so strongly about the point that the truth is truth, fact is fact, no matter when it comes out or when we hear it, it is still constant. The defense can put out all the facts, truth & evidence they have to support Casey and her innocence.

 

[celticthyme]

Do the cellphone records and/or a video and/or snuggling prove Casey committed a premeditated murder?

No, They absolutely do not. What they do however, is put Casey at a certain place, at a certain time in a given circumstance. If an eye witness saw Caylee with Casey at 4PM on June 16th, 2008, in a parking lot, and a video camera sees Casey with TL in a video store at 8PM on July 16th, 2008, WITHOUT CAYLEE, while Caylee was in Casey's care, something happened to her, because after 4Pm on that day, no one ever saw a live Caylee again. And Casey doesn't even bother to try and create the ZFG kidnapping story in that 4 hour period.
Now a reasonable person, may draw a reasonable conclusion to those given set of circumstances/facts.

 

[Wudge]

Haha just to be clear I referring to the whole process and the public at large. More importantly I am referring to the potential jury pool. It almost seems like it would make a verdict appealable!

Practically speaking, if Casey is found guilty of any of the three major charges, an appeal is a foregone conclusion, and I suspect venue may well be one of the key issues.

This is one of the most publicized and emotion-based cases of all time (Laci Peterson, JonBenet and OJ probably top the list). Thanks to our digital technology age and today's culture of 'all opinion all the time', I'm not sure a venue in America exists where the jury pool that has not been poisoned.

Crimetainment coverage in this case has been five to ten times worse than what took place in Cynthia Sommer's fairly recent trial. And we saw how the jury wrongfully convicted her of 1st degree murder simply by looking past exonerating evidence. However, at least the prosecutor in that case had an 'alleged' cause of death. Of course, I say alleged, because what prosecutors had as a fact-based cause of death was not at all true.

 

[Wudge]

No, They absolutely do not. What they do however, is put Casey at a certain place, at a certain time in a given circumstance. If an eye witness saw Caylee with Casey at 4PM on June 16th, 2008, in a parking lot, and a video camera sees Casey with TL in a video store at 8PM on July 16th, 2008, WITHOUT CAYLEE, while Caylee was in Casey's care, something happened to her, because after 4Pm on that day, no one ever saw a live Caylee again. And Casey doesn't even bother to try and create the ZFG kidnapping story in that 4 hour period.
Now a reasonable person, may draw a reasonable conclusion to those given set of circumstances/facts.

Our standard of proof is not a 'reasonable conclusion'. Our standard of proof is 'proof beyond a reasonable doubt'.

What highly reliable premises can be developed from cell phone records and/or video and/or snuggling to conclude beyond a reasonable doubt that Casey committed 1st degree murder?

 

[Rlaub44]

Practically speaking, if Casey is found guilty of any of the three major charges, an appeal is a foregone conclusion, and I suspect venue may well be one of the key issues.

This is one of the most publicized and emotion-based cases of all time (Laci Peterson, JonBenet and OJ probably top the list). Thanks to our digital technology age and today's culture of 'all opinion all the time', I'm not sure a venue in America exists where the jury pool that has not been poisoned.

Crimetainment coverage in this case has been five to ten times worse than what took place in Cynthia Sommer's fairly recent trial. And we saw how the jury wrongfully convicted her of 1st degree murder simply by looking past exonerating evidence. However, at least the prosecutor in that case had an 'alleged' cause of death. Of course, I say alleged, because what prosecutors had as a fact-based cause of death was not at all true.

BBM

I didn't follow that trial very well - what exonerating evidence did the jury disregard? I know that the expert testimony about arsenic was a big kicker, although certainly disputed now.

 

[lizzysf]

Our standard of proof is not a 'reasonable conclusion'. Our standard of proof is 'proof beyond a reasonable doubt'.

What highly reliable premises can be developed from cell phone records and/or video and/or snuggling to conclude beyond a reasonable doubt that Casey committed 1st degree murder?

I said previously, those two things do not. But Chloroform searches do, when Chloroform is found in the trunk. The duct tape does..proven that it matches the gas can, the tape on Caylee and the tape George used on the Caylee posters. The death band hair in the trunk does...despite the nonsense the defense is spreading regarding that. MOTIVE...can easily be found. That, is clear. Cell phone pings, Blockbuster videos, the tattoo, and a few hundred other peculiar circumstances support the forensics.

 

[lizzysf]

Wow... my first quoting of Wudge (that I botched) has screwed up the whole thread! I am sorry! Now it looks like everyone's quotes are someone elses!

 

[JBean]

you guys are carrying the broken quotes faster than I can fix them. Please be careful! fix as you go.