Premeditated Murder #972

[Wudge]

And it looks like the State is carrying their case quite well so far. All we have heard from the defense is non-factual, across the board, talk show denial of the States presented evidence. I see stalling while they work on a defense.

All the evidence is circumstantial. Circumstantial evidence is not but a one-sided affair. Expect the defense to offer a view on much of this evidence that differs from how prosecutors see it.

(Circumstantial evidence is a very tricky thing. It may seem to point very straight to one thing, but if you shift your own point of view a little, you may find it pointing in an equally uncompromising manner to something entirely different. ... Sherlock Holmes)

 

[Brini]

You might be questioned, but you should not be arrested unless you confessed (inculpatory evidence) or someone identified you as the bank robber (direct inculpatory evidence) or the stolen money was traceable and your deposit was determined to have been from the batch that was stolen from the bank (inculpatory physical evidence).

Or, there was strong circumstantial evidence.

Try as we might, we are not gonna be able to get away from that.

 

[Brini]

All the evidence is circumstantial. Circumstantial evidence is not but a one-sided affair. Expect the defense to offer a view on much of this evidence that differs from how prosecutors see it.

(Circumstantial evidence is a very tricky thing. It may seem to point very straight to one thing, but if you shift your own point of view a little, you may find it pointing in an equally uncompromising manner to something entirely different. ... Sherlock Holmes)

That is true. Thanks!

 

[Wudge]

Wudge...have you made a personal decision as to whether the forensic reports on the Chloroform found in the trunk and the HOW to make Chloroform searches on the computer are valid based on the reports you read? Tell me what your viewpoint is about the same duct tape found in 3 places relating back to Anthony owned duct tape is.

I do not hold that any chloroform allegedly found in the trunk to necessarily be related to Caylee's death. Nor do I hold that the tape is the instrument of Caylee's death. Without an established cause of death, I would be guessing. And guessing to a conclusion is obviously not of sufficient reliability to support proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

 

[Brini]

The defense is not required to put on a case. The burden of proof rests entirely with the State.

That's true. KC can sit silent as long as she likes.

But, if KC remains silent, she's toast. The jury won't like the fact of the tape, the 31 days, the celebratory bx, the decomp car, or the fact that Caylee died in her care. All of that points in just one direction.

'Nighty-night, folks! xxxxxxxooooooo

 

[lizzysf]

All the evidence is circumstantial. Circumstantial evidence is not but a one-sided affair. Expect the defense to offer a view on much of this evidence that differs from how prosecutors see it.

(Circumstantial evidence is a very tricky thing. It may seem to point very straight to one thing, but if you shift your own point of view a little, you may find it pointing in an equally uncompromising manner to something entirely different. ... Sherlock Holmes)

Yes...but for lack of a fingerprint or dNA found on the duct tape matching Casey Anthony...Could we say that the very rare duct tape found on the body, on the gas can, and the Caylee Posters..all leading back to Anthony house...is as good as a fingerprint?

 

[Wudge]

Edit by me for brevity.

There is no evidence that Caylee was disposed of my leaving her on the surface of the ground that I am aware of. In fact, there is a shovel in evidence, it is entirely possible that KC buried her in a shallow grave, (being she is as lazy as she is) and during the flood, she was uncovered.

As far as her being close to the road, she was back far enough that people looking for her for months were not able to find her.

As to premeditation, wasn't there several computer searches on her computer involving "Neck breaking," and another something about house hold items as weapons, followed by a death in that family... Sounds a lot like some premeditation going on there to me.

Right now, the evidence that we know of has Caylee's remains being found on the top of the ground. Unless evidence is presented at trial that suppports her having been buried, the jury must necessarily work off evidence that supports a non-burial (left or tossed on the surface).

 

[Wudge]

Yes...but for lack of a fingerprint or dNA found on the duct tape matching Casey Anthony...Could we say that the very rare duct tape found on the body, on the gas can, and the Caylee Posters..all leading back to Anthony house...is as good as a fingerprint?

Listen to the experts testify for both sides, then decide if it's a proven match.

 

[lizzysf]

All the evidence is circumstantial. Circumstantial evidence is not but a one-sided affair. Expect the defense to offer a view on much of this evidence that differs from how prosecutors see it.

(Circumstantial evidence is a very tricky thing. It may seem to point very straight to one thing, but if you shift your own point of view a little, you may find it pointing in an equally uncompromising manner to something entirely different. ... Sherlock Holmes)

Well, there is no gag order..so show me the money...unless the defense is too busy in the process of manufacturing their response...

 

[RR0004]

The defense is not required to put on a case. The burden of proof rests entirely with the State.

Good that they're not required 'cause they don't have one...IMO.

 

[RR0004]

Listen to the experts testify for both sides, then decide if it's a proven match.

Yup money talks.

PS- and if I'm not mistaken...I don't think the implication was that they matched.

 

[lizzysf]

Yup money talks.

Yeah...hope the State has the funds to match the "Dream Team"

 

[RR0004]

I do not hold that any chloroform allegedly found in the trunk to necessarily be related to Caylee's death. Nor do I hold that the tape is the instrument of Caylee's death. Without an established cause of death, I would be guessing. And guessing to a conclusion is obviously not of sufficient reliability to support proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

So with what you know now, you can't guess...but you can imply that it was someone else. Curious...care to share?

 

[RR0004]

Yeah...hope the State has the funds to match the "Dream Team"

Not to worry...they have the FEDS and the Body Farm.
It has always bothered me that the "experts" defense hires aren't there to seek the truth...but rather to skew it enough to get their clients off.

 

[cecybeans]

Not to worry...they have the FEDS and the Body Farm.
It has always bothered me that the "experts" defense hires aren't there to seek the truth...but rather to skew it enough to get their clients off.

Could that be considered "poisoning the jury"? That sword cuts both ways it would seem.

 

[RR0004]

Could that be considered "poisoning the jury"? That sword cuts both ways it would seem.

Ya see now, I trust what comes from the FBI and the Body Farm...they're just doing their jobs IMO without thoughts of $$$. How are they poisoning the pool?

 

[lizzysf]

It does appear that understanding the process of modern law (not the textbook variety) can well be defined by the tracking of the cashflow... And who is to blame?

 

[lizzysf]

TO WUDGE:

In an earlier post of yours, you mentioned that "Stealth" jurors are hard to spot. "Stealth" jurors being those that sort through the evidence emotionally, over-relying on circumstantial evidence. That can work on either side of the continuum. If a retired judge could sit as a juror.. would he/she be labeled a "Stealth" juror? Perhaps disregarding the obvious circumstantial evidence..only following the law to the letter, exclusively left hemisphere driven? There is a middle ground juror, truly. I have faith this middle ground jury is found quite often. You also mentioned that LE can never be trusted. LE corruption is not acceptable, and thankfully not prevalent, but I can see how it occasionally happens. These men and women of LE, with street smarts and well-developed skills, with their noses in the stench of trunks with decomposing bodies, desperately wanting crimes properly convicted, to validate the hard work they do and a desire for justice... are shot down in the courtroom by "Stealth" Judges, who allow perps to walk for an improper filing. It doesn't make it right...AT ALL. Just saying..I think I see why it happens.

I failed to ask the question.. what are the stats on Judges charged with corruption secondary to finance or politics?

 

[lin]

Logic: if prosecutors make a charge, they must know something big.

(Scary to the nth degree.)

It's actually not "logic." It's the law. If prosecutors file charges, they must believe the evidence supports those charges and expect the finder(s) of fact to agree and convict. How many times have we heard of investigations that seemed to go on and on because "there just isn't enough yet?" How many times have we all heard of prosecutors passing on cases, letting folks walk because "there wasn't enough?"

Seems like my experience is there are a whole lot more, as in an exponentially greater amount cases wherein someone is not prosecuted because the state feels they need "more" rather than wrongful convictions. That old saying about 'ten guilty men go free' lives, breathes and greatly outweighs wrongful convictions, as far as my recollection of noticing these things throughout my life.

ETA: So yeah, it is scary to the nth degree how many guilty are walking around and will offend again, just because prosecutors generally want slam dunk cases only.

 

[lin]

premeditation.. I am not so very sure that this crime was premeditated. Or maybe I still don't grasp what premeditation really means, despite having it explained to me numerous times.. I can see a person in a fury more or less grapping a piece of tape and slapping it across a childs mouth without any real thought.. but I have a much harder time seeing three or four pieces of tape being placed across their face without a moment to think about it.

it takes time to cut and paste that tape on a child.. but my real problem point is that she didn't take it off again.. a struggling child dying right in front of you when you know you have only to remove the tape (yes it would hurt, but still one would do it) so she could breathe. Maybe she had 3 or 4 minutes to come to the rescue, that is plenty of time to re-think one's actions.

Still let us say she got the tape on, and then tried to remove it and Caylee died before she could do so.. perhaps that is not premeditated... or not premeditated enough.

I think it is a moot point anyway, as I understand things in Florida law, death during an action of child abuse is still DP murder, even if the death was not intentional.

You are correct; if felony child abuse is proven, that would serve as an underlying felony for the purpose of instructing the jury on felony murder and KC would be eligible for the DP on either felony murder or premeditated murder. The jury may be instructed on felony murder even though it is not in the indictment. Lots of info on that in the [ame=http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73200]charges thread, here.[/ame]


You also have explained the legal standard for premeditation very well. You may not realize you understand it but your explanation was spot on. Florida law does not require a well thought out plan including a plan for disposal of the body to be considered a premeditated crime. In one of the old jury threads, I posted a Florida case wherein the accused beat someone to death and was convicted of premeditated murder due to the length of time it took, not unlike your example regarding the duct tape and/or the minutes that passed before Caylee expired. Under Florida law, reaching for that first piece of duct tape may be considered premeditation, if the trier of facts infers the duct tape is the proximate cause of death, which they are free to do. The jury may view the evidence and determine, draw the inference(s), that Caylee's death was likely caused by the duct tape, the heat in the trunk, the chloroform or any combination thereof and find any of those things satisfy the legal requirements to find premeditation.

The state is not required to show the cause of death. The jury is not required to make a finding on the cause of death. Even without that showing or a finding on that, the jury may find premeditation.