Prior Vaginal Trauma

[MurriFlower]

Now imagine the wrath of Patsy Ramsey if her hip-swinging, Vegas showgirl-costumed, bleached blonde, flirtatious, "too friendly" little six year old presented this little secret to Miss Wannabe America Rich Christian Holier Than Thou And Flaunting It Saint Pats.

WOW!! Now imagine someone said this about you KK, after your daughter had been murdered? Not only that, they reckoned it was either you, your 9 year old son or your husband who killed her. And just add to that, they also said the reason for killing her was that one or all of you were sexually molesting her? "Patsy didn't handle it well" And just exactly how well would you handle it, when you heard all this?

 

[KoldKase]

Then you and PR/JR have something in common, no?

Well, you got that right--NO.

Because if I discovered my child was abused, much less murdered, I'd be all over LE like cheap polyester. They'd have to arrest me and lock me up just to get me out of their faces until they found that abuser/killer.

And if someone in my family were abusing a child, I'd take them out myself, one way or another. They'd either run to LE to confess and get away from me, or they'd go feet first to the morgue.

Instead of protecting her six year old daughter, Patsy Ramsey exploited her, tarted her up and trained her like an adult to gratify Patsy's drive to get that coveted Miss America title; then she abandoned her when she ended up dead in the basement, molested, bludgeoned, and murdered. Patsy ran from that house like it was after her, with all the secrets it held.

Then Patsy couldn't be bothered, for the rest of her life, to darken the door of the BPD. Excuses, excuses, blame everyone else but the killer, run over innocent victim after innocent victim to create a non-existent intruder, and hide behind those legal powerhouses with lies, evasions, and self-righteous claptrap eat up by people who just cannot stand to believe child molesters and child killers don't come with horns and a forked tail, but with convincing voices and well-groomed facades to hide their crimes.

You could not have misjudged anyone more than to compare me to the Ramseys. I'd rather eat out of garbage cans and live under a bridge than ever walk in their shoes or carry their sins. May god have mercy on their souls, because they need it like few ever will.

 

[KoldKase]

WOW!! Now imagine someone said this about you KK, after your daughter had been murdered? Not only that, they reckoned it was either you, your 9 year old son or your husband who killed her. And just add to that, they also said the reason for killing her was that one or all of you were sexually molesting her? "Patsy didn't handle it well" And just exactly how well would you handle it, when you heard all this?

If you're asking if I were in Patsy Ramsey's shoes, how would I handle it when people came to this conclusion?

Probably just like she did, because I would be guilty, if I were Patsy Ramsey.

Now ME, if someone molested and murdered my child, THE LAST THING I'd be thinking about would be what some stranger on a forum said. Or the media, either. I doubt anyone would be able to get me to sit still long enough to even hear what some stranger's opinion of me was in the news or on a forum.

But that's ALL the Ramseys have cared about for 14 years. Even today Burke can't be bothered to talk with LE to answer questions and the Ramsey lawyer, Lin Wood, is throwing a fit because LE even ASKED. Yeah, they REALLY want to solve this murder. Ha!

You want to know how I'd handle it if somebody sexually assaulted and murdered my child? I'd be so focused on finding this sicko, I certainly wouldn't be on TV dragging my doped up nonsense in front of the public the day after I bured her while refusing to even talk to the very LE agency that needed me to help them find this pervert.

But then, that's me. Obviously it wasn't Patsy--you know--ransom note writer.

 

[MurriFlower]

If you're asking if I were in Patsy Ramsey's shoes, how would I handle it when people came to this conclusion?

Probably just like she did, because I would be guilty, if I were Patsy Ramsey.

Now ME, if someone molested and murdered my child, THE LAST THING I'd be thinking about would be what some stranger on a forum said. Or the media, either. I doubt anyone would be able to get me to sit still long enough to even hear what some stranger's opinion of me was in the news or on a forum.

But that's ALL the Ramseys have cared about for 14 years. Even today Burke can't be bothered to talk with LE to answer questions and the Ramsey lawyer, Lin Wood, is throwing a fit because LE even ASKED. Yeah, they REALLY want to solve this murder. Ha!

You want to know how I'd handle it if somebody sexually assaulted and murdered my child? I'd be so focused on finding this sicko, I certainly wouldn't be on TV dragging my doped up nonsense in front of the public the day after I bured her while refusing to even talk to the very LE agency that needed me to help them find this pervert.

But then, that's me. Obviously it wasn't Patsy--you know--ransom note writer.

Boy, I can't believe these sort of opinions are allowed to be expressed on this public forum!! It's mind boggling. I was recently threatened with expulsion because I said a poster's opinion was biased and prejudiced, but what I'm reading here goes way,way beyond that. I don't think there's a word for this kind of venom!!

 

[joeskidbeck]

Boy, I can't believe these sort of opinions are allowed to be expressed on this public forum!! It's mind boggling. I was recently threatened with expulsion because I said a poster's opinion was biased and prejudiced, but what I'm reading here goes way,way beyond that. I don't think there's a word for this kind of venom!!

BBM
Actually there are two words for this: righteous indignation, for being compared to Patsy Ramsey.
Where is the outrage for a poster that accuses actual victims of abuse of just making up stories to further their agenda?

 

[KoldKase]

I just want to say this to child abuse victims and survivors: THIS IS THE SMOKING GUN IN THIS CASE.

I've had this argument a thousand times in 11 years on the forums, because there is no topic that gets Ramsey supporters more frightened than the evidence found at autopsy of prior sexual assault.

It shortens the list of suspects to very few people, and one who undoubtedly knew her and her family very well.

Since Patsy and John both denied it even existed, refused to even consider it, knowing that AT LEAST someone managed to get into their home under their noses and molest and murder their daughter while they slept, it's obvious they were more concerned about denying the evidence than finding the killer.

What more does anyone need to know about this case? It completes the circle: means--who had access that night and before to commit such intimate assault within the heart of the family and home; method--no one in the house that night was unable to commit the elements of this attack, and certainly not if there were more than one involved; MOTIVE--someone was upset that JonBenet was at the heart of some devastating secrets that could tear that family apart, and in a very public, disgraced, scandalous way.

Goodbye professional success and unlimited riches, goodbye social status, goodbye Miss America.

So those who are determined it wasn't the Ramseys, no matter how much evidence leads straight back to them, no matter how they behaved in obstructing this investigation, no matter how many lies they told, and no matter how many years pass with no intruder "hit" on the partial, degraded, and scraped from the barest of sources DNA, will forever go berserk and attack anyone who dares argue the proof of prior sexual abuse found at autopsy.

It blows their constructed, faux reality out of the miasma of denial from which they imagined it.

 

[claudicici]

...but Murry whether or not the R's did this,the way they acted afterwards are facts,it's something we can read and see for ourselves.The only thing that differs is our reactions towards it.I feel like KK's reaction is absolutely understandable because I have a daughter myself.I think all of us that are mothers feel that same anger towards the R's because we can not begin to understand why any parent would act that way.
I might be assuming this but I think HOTYH and you are male and you do not have any children? Is this correct? I think that is why you can not understand a mother's perspective.

 

[claudicici]

...and to HOTYH I know we are not supposed to attack the poster ,but what you did in some of these recent posts goes beyond anything I've seen on these boards.Many of us that are members here are here because of prior abuse,because we feel save to talk about our stories here and for you to imply we have an agenda or making things up is beyond words.I am speechless.

 

[KoldKase]

Boy, I can't believe these sort of opinions are allowed to be expressed on this public forum!! It's mind boggling. I was recently threatened with expulsion because I said a poster's opinion was biased and prejudiced, but what I'm reading here goes way,way beyond that. I don't think there's a word for this kind of venom!!

I know nothing about what is considered a personal attack or a line that's been crossed here.

I do know that you took my personal opinion about the case and evidence and were rather insulting yourself in responding, but I tried to answer as best as I could because I know people who believe the Ramseys are innocent are as passionate as I.

But yeah, righteous indignation describes my feelings well. I consider Patsy Ramsey to be a notorious historical crime figure now, one who will forever be considered a mother who abused her daughter in so many very real and videotaped ways, that the horrible death JonBenet experienced is proportionate to that over-the-top, exhibitionist life Patsy created for a mere child. The extreme child pageant lifestyle might not have been against the law, but it certainly was against most natural instincts mothers have to protect and nurture a child, not work her like a show dog as a pedophile's dream--and that characterization is straight from Lou Smit's mouth, many times.

So Tricia knows she can ban me and I won't even blame her. I'll thank her. I'm not playing a game here: a child was murdered and that killer has never answered for this crime. Patsy set our agenda when she told us "someone's out there." If she didn't know this was serious, then what was she talking about?

In my opinion, this case is disgusting and disheartening and the worst of the worst in American criminal justice. I'm not directing "venom" at you or anyone here, just at the molester and killer of a child, and like Fleet White said, if finding that killer and bringing this person to justice isn't the primary goal, then I've got a problem with that.

If you want to hit that alert button, be my guest. I won't even be mad at you for it. I find your excuses for the Ramseys and nitpicking at red herrings created to confuse the clear evidence as offensive as you find my no punches pulled opinions about them and this murder.

But if this isn't the raw discussion that Tricia wants here, no problem. It's a pain in the azz, no doubt, and always has been, to run a Ramsey case forum. God knows Tricia has had to put up with enough personal attacks to last her a lifetime for not toadying up to Team Ramsey.

 

[KoldKase]

...and to HOTYH I know we are not supposed to attack the poster ,but what you did in some of these recent posts goes beyond anything I've seen on these boards.Many of us that are members here are here because of prior abuse,because we feel save to talk about our stories here and for you to imply we have an agenda or making things up is beyond words.I am speechless.

And THIS is what set me off.

Attack me all you want. Call me anything and everything. But go after victims of child abuse...and it is ON.

 

[Tricia]

OK Everyone.

I know certain posters are getting under your skin but please hit the alert button or email me personally at tgrif@xmission.com and tell me rather than answer the poster directly.

The JonBenet Ramsey forum is a bit looser than the rest of Websleuths only because we all have been posting on this case forever. We don't need to be as strict here as we do in other forums

However, that does not mean we can attack a poster or post sarcastic remarks.

You know we have a much higher standard of posting on Websleuths than we do anywhere else on the Internet. Please remember this OK?

People will be getting timed out as I go through the forum and see what is going on. Hopefully this will give everyone a chance to calm down and resume case discussion.

Tricia

 

[KoldKase]

Oops. Mom's home.

 

[MurriFlower]

EXACTLY!! And this is why I came onto this forum in the first place. We, each and every one of us, bring our own personal experiences both good and bad and these shape our opinions, prejudices and bias. This is what an exchange of ideas is about. We are here to try to solve this crime, but I think some people are forgetting this. What is happening now though, is people are expressing their hatred and disgust at their own abuse and relating it to JBR and then transferring this to the parents of this murdered child. I think there are people who would benefit from counselling to help them cope with their own situation and I don't think it's appropriate to use a forum such as this to seek a solution. The sooner we can return to discussing the murder of JBR and not the personal problems of the individuals the better.

 

[Tadpole12]

Wow.
sad remark
sad sigh

Happy Thanksgiving y'all.

I guess relevent, to me, has always been the consideration that behind, generating all these words, are people.

The low remarks and low end psycho games are, well, so tedious to read and participate in.

For sure, the button pusher has its reward.


That is why I have been so enjoying the doll thread.
Even though I don't see the doll image, it's been cool to see how well we examine a topic, something fresh, a possibilty.

I'm amazed at the JBR collective as a whole,
how much has been accomplished, so much information gathering and
so much good intent.

 

[Tadpole12]

A number of my posts mention primary transfer; as a matter of fact it’s mentioned twice in Post 162 on page 7
My posts are usually by way of rebuttal to posts that exclusively sing the praises of primary transfer, but I guess that sort of bias doesn’t bother you.
My aim is to provide the possibilities of “an innocent explanation” for the DNA which ML and those that follow her refuse to acknowledge.
As per my earlier post, my concern is that “the totality of the evidence is integral to the case. The mere existence of a DNA profile is not indicative of innocence or guilt.”

heyya cynic.

Ya maan.
Thanks for that. You do present the dna info well,
and I have been able to discern ...

The mere existence of a DNA profile is not indicative of
innocence or guilt- C

.... that reality.

And cynic, that touch dna test, as its methodolgy was selected to examine only the two waistband areas, can not eliminate the possibility that the longjohns were previously worn by a male, or that a Ramsey did not handle those longjohns.

 

[KoldKase]

EXACTLY!! And this is why I came onto this forum in the first place. We, each and every one of us, bring our own personal experiences both good and bad and these shape our opinions, prejudices and bias. This is what an exchange of ideas is about. We are here to try to solve this crime, but I think some people are forgetting this. What is happening now though, is people are expressing their hatred and disgust at their own abuse and relating it to JBR and then transferring this to the parents of this murdered child. I think there are people who would benefit from counselling to help them cope with their own situation and I don't think it's appropriate to use a forum such as this to seek a solution. The sooner we can return to discussing the murder of JBR and not the personal problems of the individuals the better.

Excuse me, but when did you become the thought police on this forum? I don't think you should presume to tell people what they should and shouldn't say here about their feelings about this case, their personal experiences with abuse, or what they should do about their feelings. Maybe you could benefit from counseling to help you cope with your own control issues where you try to tell people what to do because you're uncomfortable. Try the ignore and scroll buttons. Nobody is forcing you to discuss anything and vice versa.

As for "solving" the crime, let us know when you're ready to go to trial. As for me, I already have an opinion about who committed this crime, but last time I looked, LE wasn't interested; in fact, I think they usually call us case followers on the Internet crazy--and have for about a decade.

 

[MurriFlower]

in fact, I think they usually call us case followers on the Internet crazy--and have for about a decade.

Um hmm (nodding).

 

[BBB167893]

You are correct, SD. This was an incredibly cheap shot on the part of a master of cheap shots.

You are also correct as to my personal reasons for baring my soul on a public forum.

Don't worry about him, my tee mouse. I don't.

 

[BBB167893]

Child sexual abuse, where the child is 6, is rare and is exclusive to pedophilia.

I'm pretty sure it's NOT rare. And child molesation is not exclusive to pedophiles. There's also the phenomenon of situational molestation.

IMO there are no personal 'sexual abuse victim' experiences expressed by forum members so far that relate in any known way to what happened to JBR.

That's a matter of opinion.

 

[BBB167893]

Guess what? It can happen to anybody. And to suggest that those of us sharing extremely traumatic childhood events are spreading propaganda is outrageous. And to suggest that my sharing my story is a "cheap shot" is stomping on my mother's grave. But talking to a wall has never been my idea of a way to spend my time, so I'll not respond to any more such posts by this poster.

Yeah, it's a new low, and that's saying something.

And where does the idea that, "Child sexual abuse, where the child is 6, is rare and is exclusive to pedophilia" come from? Sources, please, because I would like to go to the sources and dispute them.

Take a number, MTM.