Prior Vaginal Trauma

[cynic]

A primary innocent transfer scenario forming three (3) discoveries please. Lets hear it from you OK?

Two discoveries are each a collection of skin cells in sufficient quantity to produce a profile, on opposite ends of the waistband. One discovery is genetic material in solution with JBR's freshly shed blood.

Discussed before:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90999&page=7

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Discussed before:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90999&page=7

What I found here is you complaining that its difficult to speculate on a screenplay, on how these deposits were made. There was no specific scenario only high handed waves as if we were discussing lint or something carried in the wind.

I suggest a real, plausible scenario is needed here, in order for RDI to maintain credibility. Explanations in order from least probable to most probable, that exclusively favor RDI, won't help your credibility as far as dealing with the DNA evidence is concerned.

For the nth time, what do you believe to be the most likely transfer scenario that would account for these three discoveries? The scenario should be explicit and should start with the owner of the DNA.

 

[UKGuy]

What I found here is you complaining that its difficult to speculate on a screenplay, on how these deposits were made. There was no specific scenario only high handed waves as if we were discussing lint or something carried in the wind.

I suggest a real, plausible scenario is needed here, in order for RDI to maintain credibility. Explanations in order from least probable to most probable, that exclusively favor RDI, won't help your credibility as far as dealing with the DNA evidence is concerned.

For the nth time, what do you believe to be the most likely transfer scenario that would account for these three discoveries? The scenario should be explicit and should start with the owner of the DNA.

Holdontoyourhat,

Well for the nth time I will outline my own theory regarding touch-dna transfer. When the person who killed JonBenet placed the size-12 underwear on her, they transferred touch-dna owned by the person who wrapped the size-12 underwear, or similarly the person who delivered the package to the Ramsey household tranferred touch-dna onto the wrapping paper.

FAO Schwartz is a gift-wrapping service that was used by Patsy on her NY trip.

See in the wine-cellar the gift at bottom of photo in FAO Schwartz wrapping paper.

A fuller picture is:

You can see JonBenet on xmas-morning with a FAO Schwartz wrapped gift to her left.

.

 

[joeskidbeck]

No, you don't get it. I never said that a poster said that. I'm claiming the purpose, on the stories I've read, is to promote the 'anybody can do this' or 'it can happen to anybody' attitude when it comes to child sexual abuse and murder.

Child sexual abuse, where the child is 6, is rare and is exclusive to pedophilia.

Rarer still is child sexual assault and murder.

IMO there are no personal 'sexual abuse victim' experiences expressed by forum members so far that relate in any known way to what happened to JBR. And since there are no stories of victimization by strangers, they have the appearance of being posted to garner support for familial abuse link to JBR case when none factually exists. A cheap shot, really.

Its like propaganda.

What you are really saying here is that there is no way that anyone in the Ramsey family could have been a pedophile because you have not heard any previous reports of it. Exactly how would that happen? It's pretty obvious that no one in this family tells their secrets. You have the right to believe anything you choose on this subject, but there are those of us who know that facts support the case that JonBenet was sexually abused. We don't know by who, but whoever, he was in the house that night. Bank on it.

 

[joeskidbeck]

Hey HOTYH, one more thing. You may or may not have read the story of my nephew in my earlier posts and that's ok, but guess what, his younger brother (who was a baby at the time) does not know it happened to his big brother. That's because our family does not talk about it, not even years after it happened.

 

[MurriFlower]

I am not confused. If the dna on the panties matches the dna on the longjohns as a couple of posters here have been arguing for days, what is there to be confused about? Patsy Ramsey LIED to LE about those size 12 panties being in JonBenet's drawer to wear (if she chose). You have the right to believe her lies, but I refuse to be "confused" by the bs the Ramseys have been slinging for 14 years. The panties were in the basement, wrapped as a gift for P's niece and were not opened until the night of JB's murder. It would seem as though confusion, on this board, is a relative term.

The DNA found in a drop of blood in the panties is a partial match for the touch DNA scraped from the sides of the longjohns. What we were discussing was why there was no PR DNA on the longjohns, since PR put them on her. I suggested that the DNA from person(s) who had previously handled them MAY have been there, but we only know of the UNIDENTIFED MALE DNA found. The panties were (according to PR and the only person who would have known, since she bought them) in JBRs drawers. If you choose to believe they were in the basement wrapped as a gift then so be it. I have no idea why they weren't found regardless of where they were. Probably the same reason the Rs weren't asked for the clothes they had on that night. The same reason the cord wasn't tested for touch DNA. The same reason the killer is still free.

 

[joeskidbeck]

Did LE say PR's dna wasn't found on the longjohns, and if so, please tell me where I can read it, because that would be the single biggest piece of evidence pointing to her guilt for me. Her dna should have been all over those longjohns if she put them on her and she claims that she did. I read the other day just how many evidence items were processed in this case and the number was staggering. No way I believe they didn't process the cord. It's probably not been said because that "intruder" dna didn't show up on it, so it's not news. I will post the link for the number of items tested shortly.

 

[my_tee_mouse]

Originally Posted by Holdontoyourhat
No, you don't get it. I never said that a poster said that. I'm claiming the purpose, on the stories I've read, is to promote the 'anybody can do this' or 'it can happen to anybody' attitude when it comes to child sexual abuse and murder.

Child sexual abuse, where the child is 6, is rare and is exclusive to pedophilia.

Rarer still is child sexual assault and murder.

IMO there are no personal 'sexual abuse victim' experiences expressed by forum members so far that relate in any known way to what happened to JBR. And since there are no stories of victimization by strangers, they have the appearance of being posted to garner support for familial abuse link to JBR case when none factually exists. A cheap shot, really.

Its like propaganda.

Guess what? It can happen to anybody. And to suggest that those of us sharing extremely traumatic childhood events are spreading propaganda is outrageous. And to suggest that my sharing my story is a "cheap shot" is stomping on my mother's grave. But talking to a wall has never been my idea of a way to spend my time, so I'll not respond to any more such posts by this poster.

And where does the idea that, "Child sexual abuse, where the child is 6, is rare and is exclusive to pedophilia" come from? Sources, please, because I would like to go to the sources and dispute them.

 

[joeskidbeck]

I believe the panties were in the basement and wrapped because that was the first story Patsy gave and it is the most logical.

 

[LinasK]

Curious though is how many posters have presented all these unverifiable personal experiences as if they are relevant

Yes, my experiences are unverifiable, because the chicken- molester of mine always made sure when he made his moves it was where/when noone else could see anything!!! He and I were the sole ones present. Since he is now dead, you will have to take my word for it. P.S. I'm not just coming forward with my experiences now. I've stated them many times on WS, and family members, past boyfriends, and my husband will tell you I haven't changed my story. I still know exactly what I was wearing and where I was when he attacked me!!!

 

[MurriFlower]

I believe the panties were in the basement and wrapped because that was the first story Patsy gave and it is the most logical.

And if they were right there in the wine cellar, opened with one pair of the seven taken out and put on JBR, why is that not part of the crime scene and in the picture of the blanket? Instead there is the corner of a parcel in the picture. Are you suggesting the Rs took out the panties and re-wrapped them? Why do you think that the cops didn't find the other six pairs if they were right there in the wine cellar in that parcel? Wouldn't they have noticed the parcel had been opened and investigated? Why do you think there is no mention of the large size of the panties she had on, if we are to believe RDI on this forum, they would have been hanging down to her knees? Don't you think the coroner would have remarked on that?

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

What you are really saying here is that there is no way that anyone in the Ramsey family could have been a pedophile because you have not heard any previous reports of it. Exactly how would that happen? It's pretty obvious that no one in this family tells their secrets. You have the right to believe anything you choose on this subject, but there are those of us who know that facts support the case that JonBenet was sexually abused. We don't know by who, but whoever, he was in the house that night. Bank on it.

You have the right to believe anything you choose on this subject...

Oh gosh thanks.

... but there are those of us who know that facts support the case that JonBenet was sexually abused. We don't know by who, but whoever, he was in the house that night. Bank on it.

Uh, no not banking on that. You either have no facts or the facts you think you have are invalid and unsourced.

The Globe tabloid shows some doctor some photos they say are genuine, in an unsanctioned setting that is not part of the official investigation, and that doctor says oh there's old injuries superimposed on acute injuries from that night, and you wish to accept that as fact? I'm somehow not surprised by that. Do you know Elvis is NOT on Mars, right?

Please let me know when BPD is trumpeting that JBR was sexually abused in events prior to and not related to the night she was murdered. Please let me know when the BPD has a concensus that JBR had a history of sexual abuse, and I'll join RDI right then, as I don't believe in coincidences. In the meantime I suggest you ask yourself why BPD isn't on the prior abuse bandwagon even remotely like you are.

 

[Houston Homer]

No one who has ever been the victim or known a victim of child abuse would ever believe that it just doesn't happen in nice families like the Ramseys because they said so. Neither would they minimize the damage or deny the life-long trauma the survivor lives with every day.

Well...they might, but the reasons they would are rather unsavory.

Some people are never going to get it, that's all. They obviously are not aware of how much child abuse goes on in this world. Lucky them. Because for every child abused, there is an abuser, and there are enablers of the abuser. Sadly, they are the reason there are so few consequences and it goes on largely unchecked.

I will never, ever get it. Never. Humans who abuse and refuse to protect children are sub-human, to me. But they're mostly males, and usually known to the child and family, and often are in the family, so they get away with it for so many reasons. My god, if the sexual abuse in the Catholic Church, that was covered up, actively, in even this century, doesn't teach people the truth about the abuse of children, I guess nothing will. It's a dirty little secret that people in general just do not want to admit exists.

If we admit we do not protect our own children--what does that make us?

FACT: JonBenet had prior vaginal trauma, up to 72 hours old or longer. Her hymen was largely missing and the rim of her cervix showed erosion, which indicates it was done over a period of time. The evidence is in the autopsy and is inarguable.

FACT: Someone shoved a paintbrush into JonBenet's vagina the night she was murdered. The evidence is in the autopsy and only arguable as to exactly what was inserted into the child. Since Patsy's paintbrush was part of the crime scene and garrote, and is consistent with the evidence found in the victim's vagina, it's reasonable to conclude that was the instrument used on the child's vagina.

FACT: JonBenet was taken to the doctor numerous times with "vaginitis," which her pediatrician never associated with child abuse or was afraid to do so and let it go as "normal." That would be the pediatrician who--amazingly enough--was then said to be personal friends with...the Ramseys! So much so that he, instead of Patsy's usual doctor, showed up at the Fernie's that day and prescribed "medications" for Patsy to sedate her. How convenient.

FACT: Patsy called that same Dr. Beuf on the 17th (though this date is sometimes stated as the 7th, probably from a transcription which was based on what the transcriber "heard" in a videotape of Patsy's '98 interview) three times in 35 minutes, after office hours. That's the same month of, and if it was the 17th, 8 days before, JonBenet's murder, yet Patsy could not "remember" what it was for.

FACT: JonBenet was coached and dressed inappropriately to elicit winning pageant behavior, including strutting provocatively, wearing makeup and very adult costumes, and performing in that manner frequently. Patsy herself told friend and supporter Pam Archuleta, by Pam's own account, that she was worried about JonBenet "flirting" and being "too friendly." Pam stated to a reporter in a pro-Ramsey article that John and Patsy argued about the pageants, John not approving of them. Patsy and John, however, lied about this to LE when asked if they ever argued. They both said no, they didn't.

How any reasonable person can disconnect these facts when the child was found sexually abused, strangled, and bludgeoned in her own basement, her body staged with duct tape, wrapped in a blanket, and a fake ransom note left to "explain" it, is beyond my comprehension. It's tantamout to saying this is such a nice family, there has to be some other explanation than the obvious. Oh, it was bubble bath! Or she masturbated and what a coincidence she shoved that paintbrush up herself and then was murdered mere minutes later!

Puhleeze. I found out long ago there is no Santa Clause, Easter Bunny, or honor among thieves, either. Sexual abuse is real, it crosses socio-economic boundaries, and it's covered up to escape scandal, shame, and legal accountability. The victim is often blamed by everyone, especially the family who just doesn't want to deal with the problems that arise if the perp is brought to justice and stopped.

Anyone who doesn't know what I am talking about here should do some research with child abuse VICTIMS in mind, not just to find excuses to exhonerate the child abusers.

This my opinion. Period.

Clicking on "thanks" was not enough, KK. Thank you so much for all of the hard work you (and River Rat, Jayelles, et al) have done for YEARS over at FFJ. I respect y'all so much!!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

For a poster to accuse fellow posters, who have been brave enough to talk about their experiences with sexual abuse (no matter WHO the offender was...family or NOT), as doing that to advance the RDI theory, well I'm just shocked and speechless at the meanness of this. :furious:

 

[joeskidbeck]

How do you know BPD is not on the "prior abuse bandwagon"? In every article I've read lately, they've finally learned to keep their mouths shut till they close this case. This is the first time in 14 years that I actually have hope this case may be solved.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Guess what? It can happen to anybody. And to suggest that those of us sharing extremely traumatic childhood events are spreading propaganda is outrageous. And to suggest that my sharing my story is a "cheap shot" is stomping on my mother's grave. But talking to a wall has never been my idea of a way to spend my time, so I'll not respond to any more such posts by this poster.

And where does the idea that, "Child sexual abuse, where the child is 6, is rare and is exclusive to pedophilia" come from? Sources, please, because I would like to go to the sources and dispute them.

Its only a cheap shot if your intention by telling your story was to garner support of familial abuse theories in the case of JBR, due to a lack of real hard evidence of familial abuse. If that wasn't your intention then you've got nothing to worry about.

 

[KoldKase]

Oh gosh thanks.



Uh, no not banking on that. You either have no facts or the facts you think you have are invalid and unsourced.

The Globe tabloid shows some doctor some photos they say are genuine, in an unsanctioned setting that is not part of the official investigation, and that doctor says oh there's old injuries superimposed on acute injuries from that night, and you wish to accept that as fact? I'm somehow not surprised by that. Do you know Elvis is NOT on Mars, right?

Please let me know when BPD is trumpeting that JBR was sexually abused in events prior to and not related to the night she was murdered. Please let me know when the BPD has a concensus that JBR had a history of sexual abuse, and I'll join RDI right then, as I don't believe in coincidences. In the meantime I suggest you ask yourself why BPD isn't on the prior abuse bandwagon even remotely like you are.

Obviously your knowledge of criminal investigation and prosecution was learned at the Hunter-Lacy School of Legal Nonsense.

It's always the defense that is on TV, all over the airwaves, broadcasting whatever defense tactics they can mount with well paid shills working for them.

Prosecutors and police dept's. don't have that luxury. They have to keep their noses to the grindstone and wait for a jury to decide the case.

Except for Hunter-Lacy, of course, who were both working for the defense all along, it turns out. Since that's obviously how you think a DA's Office is normally run, I'll excuse your ignorance on that point.

The fact that you can't comprehend the autopsy report in medical terms simply also means you're arguing from a point of such ignorance, you couldn't possibly fathom the evidence of this case. Well, you can't help that either, poor thing.

But you're the one who is exploiting the pain and experiences of others who have spoken about child abuse. You do it to make a false point you know nothing about.

I suggest you do some research, go get some training at a sexual assault center, and then think about what you said to those survivors you've attacked here on behalf of the Ramseys.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

I suggest you do some research, go get some training at a sexual assault center, and then think about what you said to those survivors you've attacked here on behalf of the Ramseys.

Until then, please spare me your unverifiable sob stories as they seem to pale in comparison to the subject matter. And its not even known if they are relevant.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

How do you know BPD is not on the "prior abuse bandwagon"? In every article I've read lately, they've finally learned to keep their mouths shut till they close this case. This is the first time in 14 years that I actually have hope this case may be solved.

Not completely shut. They've asked BR to call them "if he wants to talk". That sounds like several steps straight backwards. I'll start having hope this case may be solved when that is turned around.

When they call BR to tell him what happened.

 

[KoldKase]

Clicking on "thanks" was not enough, KK. Thank you so much for all of the hard work you (and River Rat, Jayelles, et al) have done for YEARS over at FFJ. I respect y'all so much!!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

For a poster to accuse fellow posters, who have been brave enough to talk about their experiences with sexual abuse (no matter WHO the offender was...family or NOT), as doing that to advance the RDI theory, well I'm just shocked and speechless at the meanness of this. :furious:

Yeah, I am pretty steamed myself. But it's a very good example of just what kind of mentality victims and survivors have to deal with. Denial; accusations; denial; attacks; dismissal. Yep, that's how it goes more often than not.

Now imagine the wrath of Patsy Ramsey if her hip-swinging, Vegas showgirl-costumed, bleached blonde, flirtatious, "too friendly" little six year old presented this little secret to Miss Wannabe America Rich Christian Holier Than Thou And Flaunting It Saint Pats.

I know for a fact Patsy didn't handle it well, because she denied it forever after even while someone sexually assaulted her baby and murdered her in their home. Patsy never once actively looked for someone within the inner circle who had access, did she? Nope. Immediately it was, Show me the evidence!

Ha. You showed US the evidence, Patsy.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Yeah, I am pretty steamed myself. But it's a very good example of just what kind of mentality victims and survivors have to deal with. Denial; accusations; denial; attacks; dismissal. Yep, that's how it goes more often than not.

Then you and PR/JR have something in common, no?