Prior Vaginal Trauma

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Like I said- ONLY on her clothing.

Some new DNA rules handed to us by RDI:

Touch DNA that uniquely identifies a person is inferior to other types of DNA that uniquely identifies a person.

DNA discovered on an evidence item is less significant if matching DNA was already found on the same type of item.

Wow, the logic is staggering.
 
Yet another falsehood. Matching DNA was found mixed with blood on the inside crotch area.
As DeeDee said, on her clothes.
but Bode probably thinks its absurd as they don't consider secondary transfer of touch DNA as more likely than primary transfer.
They don’t consider it absurd.
They hosted a workshop where secondary transfer was discussed:
BODE EAST COAST ADVANCED DNA TECHNOLOGY WORKSHOP
Sponsored by:
The Bode Technology Group, Inc.
May 30 – June 2, 2006
The Recovery of DNA Deposited on Weapons through Secondary Transfer
http://www.bodetech.com/documents/South_Seas_Brochure.pdf

THAT's why they call it 'touch DNA'. Its presumed to be the DNA from a touch by the DNA owner.
That is completely false. It’s presumed by you to be touch exclusively from the DNA owner.
No DNA expert anywhere would agree with that assertion.

The DNA vs. Fingerprints Debate
…
This raises the question, which of the two types is the stronger evidence? Answer: Fingerprints - and I say this as a DNA expert.
…
We also consider the nature of the transfer of evidence. If I were to touch a smooth surface such as a wall, I would deposit DNA and leave some fingerprints behind on the wall. This is called ‘direct’ or ‘primary’ transfer. However, if someone was to come along and wipe that wall with a cloth, it would remove my DNA onto the cloth and wipe the fingerprint off. If that person then uses that cloth to wipe the door handle, my DNA can then be transferred on to that door handle. Therefore, my DNA could be recovered from that handle without me ever coming into contact with it. This is referred to as ‘indirect’ or ‘secondary’ transfer.In this example, my DNA is transferred, but my fingerprint is not. This means that if my fingerprint is found on a surface, then I must have touched that surface; whereas, if my DNA is found on a surface, then I may have come into contact with that surface or it got there by secondary transfer.
-Graham Williams
http://www2.hud.ac.uk/sas/comment/gw260609.php

PROCEEDINGS of the American Academy of Forensic Sciences
Annual Scientific Meeting, Denver, CO
February 16-21, 2009
“Touch and Transfer” DNA Samples: Practical and Ethical Issues
Valerie K. Fahrnow, BSN*, Clinical Reference Laboratory, 8433 Quivira
Road, Lenexa, KS 66215

After attending this presentation, the attendees will understand the practical and ethical issues of “touch and transfer” DNA in the judicial system.
…
Previously undetectable evidence is being presented to facilitate the administration of equal justice. However, forensic DNA is not a panacea. Limitations of touch DNA need to be recognized and respected. Selected practical and ethical issues of touch DNA will beaddressed.
Touch and transfer DNA samples are minuscule amounts of DNA (< 50 pg) from any cellular or biological material which comes into contact with another object or body. Transference may occur from person to person, person to object, object to person, and object to object.
&#8230;
The novelty and potential use of this rapidly emerging technology must be tempered through addressing practical considerations. These recognized scientific and analytical limitations include, but are not limited to: discretion in the selection of a typing kit, recognition of potential stochastic effects, the infallibility of low-level mixtures,
adherence to established detection thresholds and compliance with analytical standards. Data analysis and impartial statistical significance of the results cannot be neglected. Presentation by the proponent, of these material factors must be competently and completely presented, in good faith, as an integral part of the judicial process.
In addition, ethical standards regarding the weight of the evidence must also be elucidated. Critical considerations for determining the reason for sample collection, issues of primary, secondary, and tertiary transfer, and sample contamination must all be considered.These issues foster speculation regarding evidential viability. Presence of a DNA profile, does not answer the question of when or how it get there nor its ensuing implications. The perseverance of introducing phantom suspects due to speculative testimony must be substantively examined. The potential of wrongfully convicting an innocent bystander or exoneration of a guilty person are of primary concern. The totality of the evidence is integral to the case. The mere existence of a DNA profile is not indicative of innocence or guilt.
The recognition and impact of touch and transfer DNA evidence in the judicial system is commonly neglected and misunderstood by the courts. In scrutinizing evidentiary standards for minuscule amounts of DNA in criminal cases, the court in State v. Freeman, 2008 WL 142299, (Mo.App.S.D. Jan. 16, 2008 - No.28150) determined, &#8220;DNA is robust and easily transferred ... Its mere presence is not adequate for inferences of guilt.&#8221; Accordingly, prosecutors must be aware of limitations and challenges regarding touch DNA to minimize its misuse as evidence. The analytical process, misconceptions and powerfully persuasive evidential impact of touch DNA in criminal prosecutions must be understood and properly utilized. Limitations of low level DNA need to be recognized and respected. The importance of ethical and good faith application of this invisible evidence is paramount.
http://www.aafs.org/pdf/2009ProceedingsDenver.pdf
 
Thank you, Cynic. It can't get any clearer than the above post. I think I heard this once in a song: "There is none so blind as he who will not see".
 
I have backed my opinions with multiple sources and even examples from other criminal cases. The sources include many seasoned and highly respected DNA experts.
You, on the other hand, have merely said, I am HOTYH, believe what Mary Lacy and I say.
Touch implies contact. That contact may involve primary, secondary or tertiary transfer of skin cells.
That is an absolute fact.

OK well if you're such a DNA expert then you know full well that touch DNA analysis will turn up everyone who handled the object. Now you're on the side where touch DNA was deposited secondarily, and the host of this DNA didn't then deposit their own DNA in enough quantity to be detected.

Is this true?
 
Touch implies contact. That contact may involve primary, secondary or tertiary transfer of skin cells.
That is an absolute fact.

Not really. If what you say is true, we'd be discussing the skin cells on the waistband. The 'touch' part of 'touch DNA' is intended to show that the owner of the DNA is the one who touched the object. Thats why they call it touch DNA, its the DNA you leave behind when you touch something, not the DNA of someone else that you leave behind while not leaving behind your own DNA (LOL).

Incidentally, how did a bunch of DNA-matching skin cells get on opposite sides of the longjohn waistband anyway? DNA that matched inside crotch DNA mixed with JBR's freshly shed blood? (Gawd I can't wait to hear this 'explanation')
 
OK well if you're such a DNA expert then you know full well that touch DNA analysis will turn up everyone who handled the object. Now you're on the side where touch DNA was deposited secondarily, and the host of this DNA didn't then deposit their own DNA in enough quantity to be detected.

Is this true?

We&#8217;ve been over this several times as well, and I really don&#8217;t see why we should go over the same ground, again and again.
I will take one example, PR in her statements said that she pulled JBR&#8217;s long johns on to her body when she put her to bed.
Where, then, is her DNA profile?
There are two possibilities:
The first is that her profile was found but excluded as irrelevant.
The second possibility is that she is what is known as a &#8220;poor shedder,&#8221; a person who transfers very little of their own skin cells as they come into contact with objects.
These people, however, are efficient at transferring DNA that they have picked up.
This phenomenon has been proven.
The presence of DNA with a profile matching that found on an item does not necessarily show that the person ever had direct contact with the item. &#8220;It has also been shown that a full profile can be recovered from secondary transfer of epithelial cells (from one individual to another and subsequently to an object) at 28 cycles [the standard method].&#8221;
http://www.theforensicinstitute.com/PDF/Continuity%20and%20contamination.pdf

 
Actually, I never said that.
Not explicitly, but implicitly. She is your primary source.
She is the one that claims that there is no &#8220;innocent explanation&#8221; for the DNA evidence in this case.
 
There are two possibilities:
The first is that her profile was found but excluded as irrelevant.
The second possibility is that she is what is known as a &#8220;poor shedder,&#8221; a person who transfers very little of their own skin cells as they come into contact with objects.

(trimmed bulk-spam)

This is false, as it presents only two possibilities.

Third possibility is that she handled front to rear, and they only scraped or taped side to side.

Fourth possibility is that the intruder was a prolific shedder, being sweaty and excited. Why is this possibility excluded? Is it because you're biased and are not going to present the more likely scenarios?

Why are you not including the primary transfer scenario as the most likely transfer scenario? What gives you the right to imply that primary transfer of skin cells by the owner is less likely than secondary transfer?
 
This is false, as it presents only two possibilities.
Either I wasn’t clear or you misunderstood my post.
I was asking only why PR’s DNA profile was not found, or not reported.
Third possibility is that she handled front to rear, and they only scraped or taped side to side.
So you would have me believe that PR pulled long johns from a drawer, carried them over to JBR, and wrestled them onto her limp body all without leaving her DNA on any portion of the waistband that was tested by Bode?
Fourth possibility is that the intruder was a prolific shedder, being sweaty and excited. Why is this possibility excluded? Is it because you're biased and are not going to present the more likely scenarios?
As I said above, we were not meant to be discussing the intruder profile.
Why are you not including the primary transfer scenario as the most likely transfer scenario? What gives you the right to imply that primary transfer of skin cells by the owner is less likely than secondary transfer?
Once again, we were not meant to be discussing the intruder profile, only the lack of PR’s profile.
And just for the record, innocent primary transfer of DNA may also account for the DNA evidence in this case, not to mention contamination. Some examples are cited by Dr. Baden below:
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyFpkBGI-6A[/ame]
 
(trimmed bulk-spam)

This is false, as it presents only two possibilities.

Third possibility is that she handled front to rear, and they only scraped or taped side to side.

Fourth possibility is that the intruder was a prolific shedder, being sweaty and excited. Why is this possibility excluded? Is it because you're biased and are not going to present the more likely scenarios?

Why are you not including the primary transfer scenario as the most likely transfer scenario? What gives you the right to imply that primary transfer of skin cells by the owner is less likely than secondary transfer?

No, there is a fourth possibility. That PRs DNA was there, and maybe even LHPs. HOWEVER, it was the unidentified male DNA that was considered suspicious. When this matched to the partial DNA profile previously obtained from the panties, it showed that an unknown male had been at the crime scene and that rendered it extremely unlikely to have been secondary/tertiary transfer. Any DNA that might be expected (by any reasonable person) to have been innocently placed on the garment by people who had a right to touch it (PR & LHP) would not be regarded as significant and unlikely to have been reported anywhere that we have access to.

HOTYH is right cynic. Why do you dismiss the more likely probability of the DNA being placed there by primary transfer and continue to try to justify secondary/tertiary transfer scenario?
 
Actually, neither Patsy's nor LHP's dna should have been on those panties. They were wrapped as Christmas gifts in the basement. I would be extremely interested in knowing if either ladies dna showed up there.
 
Actually, neither Patsy's nor LHP's dna should have been on those panties. They were wrapped as Christmas gifts in the basement. I would be extremely interested in knowing if either ladies dna showed up there.

Not only that, but those panties came in a sealed plastic container. LHP would not have opened them.
 
Not only that, but Patsy lied to LE in Atlanta in 2000, in her interview where she said she gave the Bloomies to JonBenet to wear and JonBenet must have put them on herself; then that she put the Bloomies in JonBenet's drawer for her to use.

Then in 2002, through Lin Wood, the Ramseys turned over a package of Bloomies with six pair in it, sized 12-14, claiming it was the actual package in question. What?

But LE told Patsy in that 2002 interview they had removed 15 pair of panties from JonBenet's drawer, all size 4-6--no Bloomies size 12-14.

Jams said a retired cop working for the Ramseys as a PI went through the family's boxes of possessions brought from Boulder, looking for either the clothes the Ramseys turned over or the "mysterious" Santa doll--that story changed, too. In any case, that package wasn't in JonBenet's drawer for her to take out the Bloomies and put on, was it, if LE didn't recover it when they took the rest of the underwear.

And if you look at my avatar, you might see how ludicrous it is to imagine JonBenet putting on such panties herself and attempting to wear them. This model is a darn specific experiment; the dummy was created using measurements taken from a six year old girl approx. the same age, height, and weight as JonBenet. The Bloomies came from Bloomingdale, N.Y., inside the store.

Why would Patsy lie about that? She knew how important evidence was in finding the "intruder." She even know the underwear had been an issue in this case: no doubt she knew the DNA was her best "get out of jail free" card because Team Ramsey never quit talking about it, and it was allegedly from the underwear. Yet she deliberately misled LE. The Ramseys held onto that evidence for at least 3 to 4 years after it was "found" by their own PI.

That's withholding evidence in a murder case. What innocent parent does that?

The DNA could be contaminate. It's inarguable that DNA is so minute, the technology so new, no one can prove how or when those strands got on those clothes until the donor is found. They can't even prove if it was transmitted in saliva or mucous, because it is skin cells carried in either one, shed from the membranes that it travels through; but saliva and mucous don't have their own DNA.

Yes, of course it could be secondary or tertiary transfer. Statistics and "more likely" don't mean anything until it is determined who the donor is, because one occurance is still an occurance. If there is one occurance, then who can say there aren't many? In a case like this where Bode Tech obviously had a dog in the hunt for the "matching" unsourced DNA, obviously looking for the advertising money can't buy, and Lacy certainly wanted to find it, as well, how can that be trusted? The Bode Tech even said in her "demo" done with a reporter that she discarded DNA from the samples she extracted. What?! Yeah, she said EXACTLY that. So whose DNA did she discard? What criteria did she use to decide that? Obviously, she had to have something that ruled some in and some out: a target DNA?

Personally, I suspect someone pulled the longjohns and panties down and back up, leaving the DNA on them. It could have been JonBenet herself, because the few markers under her fingernails did match the fuller DNA profiles--or at least, that's what Lacy wants us to believe, but I haven't seen the reports myself.

They also could have been contaminated in the medical examiner's autopsy or in the lab by someone who processed them, handled them, pulling the waistbands to look at them, etc. and contaminated them.

Another possibility is that the paintbrush was contaminate and whoever handled the paintbrush tranferred the DNA when pulling the clothing back on. The "mixture" of that DNA in the blood in the panties would be explained that way--and that comes from Ollie Gray, who said as much on TV when discussing this "touch" DNA.

In reality, Bode Tech would never in a million years have revealed test results of evidence for an investigative office of the gov't. if Lacy hadn't set it all up and given permission for Bode's technician to do such an extensive, detailed, weeklong media blitz to herald the "discover" worldwide. For Bode's president to be putting out video claiming this DNA belonged to an intruder is so absurd, it really brings into question the lab's objectives and lack of credibility: it was not their job nor did they have the ability to say how that DNA got there.

Who in LE goes out of their way to break all investigative protocol and procedure in an unsolved murder case? Oh, yeah: biased, emotionally involved, incompetent Lacy.

This DNA is a red herring. As I've said, name who it belongs to, prove he at least knew of the family, was there that night, has no alibi, matches other evidence at the crime scene, and then convince me that Patsy would write a ransom note for him, lie to LE, obstruct the investigation, and help him get away with murdering her molested child.

That's what it will take for the DNA to change my mind.
 
And by the way, did Lacy have the alleged Bloomies package with the six pair of panties still in it turned in by the Ramseys five yeara after the murder tested for DNA? To see where it was manufactured, when, and who worked there, to test that "touch" DNA profile against those men if possible? How about fingerprints on it? Were JB's on there, proving it was in fact the same package in question? Any "touch" DNA anywhere in there?

Seems important...but we never heard any big media announcements about that, did we?
 
Not only that, but Patsy lied to LE in Atlanta in 2000, in her interview where she said she gave the Bloomies to JonBenet to wear and JonBenet must have put them on herself; then that she put the Bloomies in JonBenet's drawer for her to use.

Then in 2002, through Lin Wood, the Ramseys turned over a package of Bloomies with six pair in it, sized 12-14, claiming it was the actual package in question. What?

But LE told Patsy in that 2002 interview they had removed 15 pair of panties from JonBenet's drawer, all size 4-6--no Bloomies size 12-14.

Jams said a retired cop working for the Ramseys as a PI went through the family's boxes of possessions brought from Boulder, looking for either the clothes the Ramseys turned over or the "mysterious" Santa doll--that story changed, too. In any case, that package wasn't in JonBenet's drawer for her to take out the Bloomies and put on, was it, if LE didn't recover it when they took the rest of the underwear.

And if you look at my avatar, you might see how ludicrous it is to imagine JonBenet putting on such panties herself and attempting to wear them. This model is a darn specific experiment; the dummy was created using measurements taken from a six year old girl approx. the same age, height, and weight as JonBenet. The Bloomies came from Bloomingdale, N.Y., inside the store.

Why would Patsy lie about that? She knew how important evidence was in finding the "intruder." She even know the underwear had been an issue in this case: no doubt she knew the DNA was her best "get out of jail free" card because Team Ramsey never quit talking about it, and it was allegedly from the underwear. Yet she deliberately misled LE. The Ramseys held onto that evidence for at least 3 to 4 years after it was "found" by their own PI.

That's withholding evidence in a murder case. What innocent parent does that?

The DNA could be contaminate. It's inarguable that DNA is so minute, the technology so new, no one can prove how or when those strands got on those clothes until the donor is found. They can't even prove if it was transmitted in saliva or mucous, because it is skin cells carried in either one, shed from the membranes that it travels through; but saliva and mucous don't have their own DNA.

Yes, of course it could be secondary or tertiary transfer. Statistics and "more likely" don't mean anything until it is determined who the donor is, because one occurance is still an occurance. If there is one occurance, then who can say there aren't many? In a case like this where Bode Tech obviously had a dog in the hunt for the "matching" unsourced DNA, obviously looking for the advertising money can't buy, and Lacy certainly wanted to find it, as well, how can that be trusted? The Bode Tech even said in her "demo" done with a reporter that she discarded DNA from the samples she extracted. What?! Yeah, she said EXACTLY that. So whose DNA did she discard? What criteria did she use to decide that? Obviously, she had to have something that ruled some in and some out: a target DNA?

Personally, I suspect someone pulled the longjohns and panties down and back up, leaving the DNA on them. It could have been JonBenet herself, because the few markers under her fingernails did match the fuller DNA profiles--or at least, that's what Lacy wants us to believe, but I haven't seen the reports myself.

They also could have been contaminated in the medical examiner's autopsy or in the lab by someone who processed them, handled them, pulling the waistbands to look at them, etc. and contaminated them.

Another possibility is that the paintbrush was contaminate and whoever handled the paintbrush tranferred the DNA when pulling the clothing back on. The "mixture" of that DNA in the blood in the panties would be explained that way--and that comes from Ollie Gray, who said as much on TV when discussing this "touch" DNA.

In reality, Bode Tech would never in a million years have revealed test results of evidence for an investigative office of the gov't. if Lacy hadn't set it all up and given permission for Bode's technician to do such an extensive, detailed, weeklong media blitz to herald the "discover" worldwide. For Bode's president to be putting out video claiming this DNA belonged to an intruder is so absurd, it really brings into question the lab's objectives and lack of credibility: it was not their job nor did they have the ability to say how that DNA got there.

Who in LE goes out of their way to break all investigative protocol and procedure in an unsolved murder case? Oh, yeah: biased, emotionally involved, incompetent Lacy.

This DNA is a red herring. As I've said, name who it belongs to, prove he at least knew of the family, was there that night, has no alibi, matches other evidence at the crime scene, and then convince me that Patsy would write a ransom note for him, lie to LE, obstruct the investigation, and help him get away with murdering her molested child.

That's what it will take for the DNA to change my mind.

We've had numerous discussions previously about the size of the panties. According to Bloomingdales and to Wikipedia, the following are the US sizes for girls/children.

Size 6 - height 45"-46.5", weight 42.5lbs-48lbs, to fit children 5 years old, chest 25", waist 22", back to waist 10.5"
Size 12 - height 56"-58", weight 85lbs, to fit girls 9-10 years old, chest 30", waist 25.5", back to waist 13.5"

I don't think the panties depicted in your avatar are correct, as they are hanging down almost to the child's knees, whereas according to the size chart, they should be a maximum of 2.5" larger around the waist and probably less than 2" longer from waist to crotch than the smaller pair.

I would expect a new pair of size 12 panties with new elastic would be hardly discernable from an old stretched pair size 6.
 
Not really. If what you say is true, we'd be discussing the skin cells on the waistband. The 'touch' part of 'touch DNA' is intended to show that the owner of the DNA is the one who touched the object. Thats why they call it touch DNA, its the DNA you leave behind when you touch something, not the DNA of someone else that you leave behind while not leaving behind your own DNA (LOL).

Incidentally, how did a bunch of DNA-matching skin cells get on opposite sides of the longjohn waistband anyway? DNA that matched inside crotch DNA mixed with JBR's freshly shed blood? (Gawd I can't wait to hear this 'explanation')


OK how about it?

How about a primary innocent transfer scenario that accounts for all three DNA discoveries? Like I said, I can't wait to hear this 'explanation' as it circumvents prima facie.
 
More nonsense. Are we discussing the same case? You're describing acute injuries and then labelling them as preexisting when really you've no idea about it. I suggest dropping all possible acute injuries from your argument, and what are you left with? Nothing. No known preexisting injury. You're misinterpreting the autopsy report, reading it the way you want to, which is typical for RDI.

SOMEBODY's misinterpreting it, all right!

Nobody attributes JBR's acute injuries to prior abuse except you, so maybe you're just missing the point. And nobody currently considers JBR a victim of chronic sexual abuse except RDI posters on this forum. Thats a dispelled myth from the past.

Don't you believe it.
 
HOTYH is right cynic. Why do you dismiss the more likely probability of the DNA being placed there by primary transfer and continue to try to justify secondary/tertiary transfer scenario?
A number of my posts mention primary transfer; as a matter of fact it’s mentioned twice in Post 162 on page 7
My posts are usually by way of rebuttal to posts that exclusively sing the praises of primary transfer, but I guess that sort of bias doesn’t bother you.
My aim is to provide the possibilities of “an innocent explanation” for the DNA which ML and those that follow her refuse to acknowledge.
As per my earlier post, my concern is that “the totality of the evidence is integral to the case. The mere existence of a DNA profile is not indicative of innocence or guilt.”
 
OK how about it?

How about a primary innocent transfer scenario that accounts for all three DNA discoveries? Like I said, I can't wait to hear this 'explanation' as it circumvents prima facie.

Discussed before:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90999&page=7

Other posters have also outlined good possibilities, even a certain HOTYH.
“Obviously if JBR had DNA on her hands, then there would be a mix of her touch DNA and the innocent stranger touch DNA on her long johns. I don't think she's going to deposit only someone else’s DNA and not her own.
Meanwhile, if JR or PR had it on their hands, then their DNA would also be present.
Whether the DNA is from an innocent or a criminal, there HAS to be other DNA on the waistband / underwear besides that DNA. It’s probably the only way to put the DNA in true perspective but we don't have that info.”
Take your post and ask yourself why PR’s DNA was not found, or found, but not reported.

And, as I’ve mentioned on many occasions, this only covers one possible explanation.
Contamination and innocent primary transfer are also viable given the type of DNA that we are dealing with. See the explanation by Dr. Baden in post #170 on page 7 of this thread.
 

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