Prior Vaginal Trauma

[joeskidbeck]

I'm looking at all angles and falling down stairs is not what I meant. I meant a force that flung her forcefully hitting her head on 1 step. I am assuming the bottom one as any other step would require her to complete her trip down the stairs by rolling. I am trying to locate an object that would have a straight edges like the edge of a stair.

Remember high school physics and mass vs velocity. Any object used to hit her with would have to be very heavy or secured to something to make it a "immovable object".
Kids bones are more rubbery than adults so the bones can continue to grow. In order to make a fracture the size she had would require a lot of force with either a very heavy straight edged object or an immovable one. Someone suggested a tub but most have rounded edges, her bed posts also rounded, only thing I can think of that would not leave evidence behind like an outside wall corner would ( sheet rock is soft) would be a stair.
I know others have suggested a golf club but it too has a round shaft.

Cathy, click here to see the photos of JonBenet's bathroom:

http://jameson245_archive.tripod.com/jbrbedroom-A.htm

As you can see, her bathtub, as well as her vanity had very sharp edges. A hard slam into either of these could have caused the head injury.

These photos, as well as a lot more, can be found on A Candy Rose.
http://acandyrose.com/

 

[Tadpole12]

heyya CathyR,

re: golf clubs, the focus of discussion was about the head of the club, what type of club head could create the divet.

 

[Tadpole12]

CR,

here's a good link on the head injury:

http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/Head-Injuries#GolfClub

 

[Tadpole12]

The log grabber:

excerpts from NE Book, "JonBenet, The Police Files" by Don Gentle and David Wright

http://www.acandyrose.com/crimescene-basement.htm

Tabloid photo, basement cellar, log grabber

http://www.acandyrose.com/winecellar2.jpg

 

[joeskidbeck]

The log grabber:

excerpts from NE Book, "JonBenet, The Police Files" by Don Gentle and David Wright

http://www.acandyrose.com/crimescene-basement.htm

Tabloid photo, basement cellar, log grabber

http://www.acandyrose.com/winecellar2.jpg

Just now, looking at the bottom link, something occurred to me and I wonder if it ever occurred to anyone else. That hidden safe in the wc floor, do you think they may have tried to put her body in there in the hopes LE wouldn't find it?

 

[DeeDee249]

Just now, looking at the bottom link, something occurred to me and I wonder if it ever occurred to anyone else. That hidden safe in the wc floor, do you think they may have tried to put her body in there in the hopes LE wouldn't find it?

I don't think so, but I suppose it is possible that at one point, they may have wanted to find her themselves. Which, as we all know, they did. The husband of the neighbor who heard the scream said that he didn't hear the scream, but when his wife woke him up, he heard the sound of "metal scraping concrete". This could have been either someone moving the paint cans which were in there near the floor safe, or moving the piece of sheet metal that was covering the floor safe.
I have always felt the R's originally thought that LE would leave after talking to them that morning, and allow the family to remain in the house, at which time they planned to call LE and say that she had been "dropped off dead" at the house. When it became apparent that police weren't going to leave, and when they did, no one would be allowed to remain in the house, it became necessary to "find" her before she got to the point that there would be no mistaking where she was.

 

[akashana]

EXACTLY!! And this is why I came onto this forum in the first place. We, each and every one of us, bring our own personal experiences both good and bad and these shape our opinions, prejudices and bias. This is what an exchange of ideas is about. We are here to try to solve this crime, but I think some people are forgetting this. What is happening now though, is people are expressing their hatred and disgust at their own abuse and relating it to JBR and then transferring this to the parents of this murdered child. I think there are people who would benefit from counselling to help them cope with their own situation and I don't think it's appropriate to use a forum such as this to seek a solution. The sooner we can return to discussing the murder of JBR and not the personal problems of the individuals the better.

MY BOLD

I beg to differ. In no way do I feel or perceive that any posters here who have experienced childhood sexual abuse are applying or projecting their feelings onto the Ramseys. Rather, I think they are privy to hard and ugly truths that thankfully, most of us will never have to face, and they have used these truths to advocate for one who can no longer speak for herself and tell her sad and sordid story. Many victims become advocates because they can understand as no others what these children suffer, and they genuinely strive to bring molesters and abusers to justice not out of "disgust" at their own abuse(rs), but in an attempt to protect other innocents from predators. If they are able to further come to terms with the abuse they endured as child victims through advocacy or posting in open forums and bringing their personal insights to the table, they should not be bullied, shamed or dissuaded from doing so.

 

[LinasK]

MY BOLD

I beg to differ. In no way do I feel or perceive that any posters here who have experienced childhood sexual abuse are applying or projecting their feelings onto the Ramseys. Rather, I think they are privy to hard and ugly truths that thankfully, most of us will never have to face, and they have used these truths to advocate for one who can no longer speak for herself and tell her sad and sordid story. Many victims become advocates because they can understand as no others what these children suffer, and they genuinely strive to bring molesters and abusers to justice not out of "disgust" at their own abuse(rs), but in an attempt to protect other innocents from predators. If they are able to further come to terms with the abuse they endured as child victims through advocacy or posting in open forums and bringing their personal insights to the table, they should not be bullied, shamed or dissuaded from doing so.

Thanks is NOT enough for this post, I'd give you a standing ovation if I could!!!:clap::clap::clap:

 

[claudicici]

I bet if there was a poll of members at Websleuths most of us had some sort of experience with abuse or violence personally.
That's exactly why we are interested in these cases in the first place and that's why we more than anyone want justice especially for innocent children! That's why we empathize ,that's why we care and all of us should feel safe and encouraged to share our personal experiences.

 

[CathyR]

Thanks for all the links.
Her tub had a tile surround it does have sharp linear edges.
The divet in her head is the point of impact. It is the area which received the most damage.
Sink area- while the edges are sharp the height is a problem as she would have to be picked up by a tall person in order to get the velocity needed by slamming her head first into the edge. Not as likely as the tub is.

The safe asked about above. Most floor safes I've seen wouldn't hold the body of a small child. Gun cabinets yes, floor safes with that small of an opening, doubtful.
In an RDI theory the safe could also be to mislead and make look like a robbery attempt that JBR interrupted. Could be the R's changed mind about robbery and chose kidnapping instead or hoped all 3 would really throw off an investigation.
Sexual assault of a child, found near a floor safe with a RN left behind. Only thing missing is illicit drugs next to her body.
Sorry if my attitude seems flip here but the more I learn about this case the more peeved off I get.

 

[CathyR]

I bet if there was a poll of members at Websleuths most of us had some sort of experience with abuse or violence personally.
That's exactly why we are interested in these cases in the first place and that's why we more than anyone want justice especially for innocent children! That's why we empathize ,that's why we care and all of us should feel safe and encouraged to share our personal experiences.

Maybe we should start a thread for the posters who want to share their experiences with sexual assault. Be it a personal one or one of a friend or loved one.
Me -My little sister( at age 5) was sexually assaulted by a female family friend who used an object to penetrate her. She was threatened if she told. It caused much havoc in my life even though I was not the victim.

This thread could actually help all of us, even those who have not had that kind of thing happen to them.

Knowing what they have been through and who it was, a male a female etc.
The input could be invaluable in a poll sense as well. Polling the members as to see if we match national statistics. Talking about what happened to the offenders too. I think we will find that most of the outside offenders(non family members) were groomed first etc. Understanding the psychology of offenders etc.

I think the thread could be a valuable tool to us. I don't know if my membership allows me to start one yet, I'm still a newbie so I guess we should ask our mod and other posters if they want one.

I have tried to not automatically side with the PDI's . I know I am more likely to believe a woman could do this to a child because of my personal experience, I admit I could be biased but in the sense of fairness and open mindedness I avoid going there FIRST. I feel I must distance myself from an automatic conclusion because I would bring something to the table that would cloud my judgment.

 

[CathyR]

The log grabber:

excerpts from NE Book, "JonBenet, The Police Files" by Don Gentle and David Wright

http://www.acandyrose.com/crimescene-basement.htm

Tabloid photo, basement cellar, log grabber

http://www.acandyrose.com/winecellar2.jpg

The log grabber would also be a good thing to have collected from the crime scene. I'm sure it wasn't as too many things were overlooked at the time. We all know the investigation overlooked at lot.

The plan to dispose of JBR's body outside the home would also keep the law at bay as far as searching the home for related items. No judge is going to grant a search warrant. First the home was searched by police with no JBR found. The immediate area around the home was searched no JBR.
JBR's body found outside home at later time after search, no reasonable cause to search home. Could this also be why so many people were invited to home. To get neighbors who might witness body drop ( I've heard the homes were close to each other) distracted and under the watch of the R's when drop is occurring.
I can also see a reason if IDI is true why so many were there.
The invitation of people to home may be innocent as I CAN understand the need to be supported and have family and friends with me when experiencing something so terrible. If Patsy was a drama queen personality it would be a normal response for her, she would have to have others around her to cope.

This is what makes the case so perplexing. I can see interference and cooperation on the R's part. I can see all the theories being correct and valid none seem to be half baked witch hunts.

 

[DeeDee249]

NO persons, with the exception of the 3 people in the home at the time JB was killed and LE, should have been allowed to enter the home or remain there. Whether first thought to be a kidnapping or a murder (as was apparent a few hours later) this house was still active crime scene. And no friends, clergy or victim's advocates belonged there. They could have "comforted" the Rs at some other location.

 

[madeleine]

Sorry ,I posted this on another thread but it belongs here


My theory

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We've been going over these for years,what came first,head blow or strangulation.
IMO it was the sexual assault.The other two are just ...consequences....

Who would rape a child only to cover for a head bash?Normal people would call 911.I don't buy that this is what happened.It doesn't make sense.

But would you do anything possible to cover for sexual assault?You bet.

No one raped JB probably.It says digital penetration....she was just "a little bit" molested right?Someone (I think I now know who) thought,what's the big deal,we're just playing a bit and this would have go on and on and on without anyone noticing.

But something happened that night during this little game....she probably hit her head(maybe accidentally).What now?I can't call 911,they might find out about the other recent "activities".Maybe in a moment of huge panic he decided to finish her off,silence her.Remember,she was still breathing when strangled.She was alive.But needed to be silenced in case she recovered from the head wound.

Now we need an explanation,to drift attention away from the real problem that caused all this.J.Douglas says that in most of the sexual crimes that are staged the perpetrator will make it look like it was about personal gain.Here comes the ransom note.I am still not convinced that PR wrote it and not JR and that the staging was meant for LE and not for the wife.Their investigators didn't even tell her that JB was assaulted when murdered,remember.

Digital penetration.This is how it started.It was real.The rest is just panic&cover up.This is why it's about forgiveness and wanting to move on.

 

[Linda7NJ]

sniped--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Digital penetration.This is how it started.It was real.The rest is just panic&cover up.This is why it's about forgiveness and wanting to move on.

It pains me to type this, but I simply can't rule it out in my mind. Digital penetration and a nine year old rapist could cause equal damage.

 

[akashana]

Regardless of what Burke and JB may or may not have ever done between the two of them, I don't think it qualifies him as a "9 year-old rapist."

 

[Annie Maude]

I'm on the side that believes JB was being sexually abused before the time of her death. Either JR, but could have also been Patsy. I felt sorry for Patsy, I got serious crazy vibes off of her.

 

[my_tee_mouse]

Originally Posted by MurriFlower
EXACTLY!! And this is why I came onto this forum in the first place. We, each and every one of us, bring our own personal experiences both good and bad and these shape our opinions, prejudices and bias. This is what an exchange of ideas is about. We are here to try to solve this crime, but I think some people are forgetting this. What is happening now though, is people are expressing their hatred and disgust at their own abuse and relating it to JBR and then transferring this to the parents of this murdered child. I think there are people who would benefit from counselling to help them cope with their own situation and I don't think it's appropriate to use a forum such as this to seek a solution. The sooner we can return to discussing the murder of JBR and not the personal problems of the individuals the better.

Wow. That's even more insulting than anything HOTYH said. The level of apathy and callousness exhibited is astounding.

I don't see any of us who shared our stories transferring anything on to JBR's parents. It's been said time and again...we shared our stories to shed light...nothing more. It is quite appropriate to share stories on this forum, because we have experienced abuse and the signs of abuse, and abuse is an issue in this case. We are no longer the abused children. We are mature adults who had terrible experiences and have looked back, reflected, learned, grown from them and moved on. Had we not, I seriously doubt any of us would have been able to share the details.

 

[joeskidbeck]

Excellent post, MTM. We can all benefit from the shared experiences of fellow posters. I wish there had been a Websleuths all those years ago so I could have seen the signs sooner and maybe spared someone I love physical and mental anguish.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Regardless of what Burke and JB may or may not have ever done between the two of them, I don't think it qualifies him as a "9 year-old rapist."

If he did indeed do, what I am not willing to rule out, the label would fit.

I'm not saying he did, but I am also not going to say he didn't.