Questions you'd like answers to... #2

[icedtea4me]

I read that, too. Maybe it was in one of John's interviews.

JR: Uh, no actually I think, well I don’t remember I guess it was really my idea, I wanted to spend Christmas up there, and I didn’t want to have to haul all the present for the kids up, so we just had Christmas in Boulder and was going up the next day, and uh, Patsy wasn’t real excited about the idea, because the winter can be kind of nasty up there; we’ve never spent Christmas up there, and that was kind of my plan.
http://www.acandyrose.com/1997BPD-John-Interview-Complete.htm

 

[UKGuy]

I read that, too. Maybe it was in one of John's interviews.

icedtea4me,
Nope, it was in one of Patsy's interviews:

BPD 1997 Patsy Interview , Excerpt

ST: And did those, did that packing include clothing or do you have clothes at Charlevoix.

PR: Well, I think it included some clothes, because most of the clothes up there are summer shorts and T-shirts and stuff like that, but, you know, but it wasn’t a lot and the suitcases wee packed to go to Florida. So, I didn’t have any, I wasn’t going to take, I don’t think I was going to take a suitcase to Charlevoix.

ST: And was everybody on this same page about going to Charlevoix as far as uh, willing and wanting to go. There was no dissention in the ranks that, I don’t want to go or she doesn’t want to go. Everybody was looking forward to this trip?

PR: Well, I mean, we were. I wasn’t real crazy about going cause I just thought it was cramming a lot of stuff in there, you know, I told John I didn’t really want to go. I’d rather, cause, Christmas, going to Charlevoix, then going to, it just seemed like a lot, you know, but then we decided as a family to go and, you know, been looking forward to it. We never had Christmas up there before so I called the florist and had them put up lights and a wreath and flowers and all that cause Melinda and Stewart were coming up and John Andrew.

Patsy does not mention her Charlevoix vacation in her Christmas family-newsletter, why not?

John didn't want to move all the Christmas Gifts so he elected to have Christmas in Boulder, does that knock out the Secret Santa aspect?

Patsy has a another line:
Larry King Live - 27, 2000 - 9:00 p.m. ET , Excerpt

KING: You did that one interview with CNN and then stopped doing them. Was that a mistake? Should you have done more, or was it a mistake to do the CNN one?

P. RAMSEY: You know, hindsight is 20/20.

KING: What is your hindsight?

P. RAMSEY: You know, my hindsight is we never should have moved to Boulder, Colorado, I mean, if you want to go back, you know. But you can't do that. You have to start with what we have now. We have to move ahead. We have to try to find this killer and get him off the street.

It's a curious one, but its evident John is calling the shots, leaving Patsy out of the loop about Charlevoix until the last moment?

IMO John's account is suspect regarding his reason for staying in Boulder, as he was so wealthy the cost of a flight plus luggage with all the Christmas gifts would represent a rounding error on his credit card statement.

If the case were JDI, John might have an ulterior motive for staying in Boulder at Christmas?

.

 

[icedtea4me]

I read that, too. Maybe it was in one of John's interviews.

JR: Uh, no actually I think, well I don’t remember I guess it was really my idea, I wanted to spend Christmas up there, and I didn’t want to have to haul all the present for the kids up, so we just had Christmas in Boulder and was going up the next day, and uh, Patsy wasn’t real excited about the idea, because the winter can be kind of nasty up there; we’ve never spent Christmas up there, and that was kind of my plan.
http://www.acandyrose.com/1997BPD-John-Interview-Complete.htm

icedtea4me,
You reckon there was a religious theme?

SBTC certainly seems to suggest this, the risen christ and all that.

Another interesting angle was did Patsy intend the RN to look as if it came from a Christian Fundamentalist Sect, e.g. Branch Davidians, or Children of God, etc?

Was any religious theme an oblique comment on JonBenet's pageant appearances and the need to save her, hence SBTC?

.

I think JonBenet's death may have a sacrificial undertone to it.

Definition of ransom | Dictionary.com

a means of deliverance or rescue from punishment for sin, especially the payment of a redemptive fine.

Perhaps JonBenet was made to pay with her life for the sins of others.

 

[icedtea4me]

I read that, too. Maybe it was in one of John's interviews.

JR: Uh, no actually I think, well I don’t remember I guess it was really my idea, I wanted to spend Christmas up there, and I didn’t want to have to haul all the present for the kids up, so we just had Christmas in Boulder and was going up the next day, and uh, Patsy wasn’t real excited about the idea, because the winter can be kind of nasty up there; we’ve never spent Christmas up there, and that was kind of my plan.
http://www.acandyrose.com/1997BPD-John-Interview-Complete.htm

icedtea4me,
You reckon there was a religious theme?

SBTC certainly seems to suggest this, the risen christ and all that.

Another interesting angle was did Patsy intend the RN to look as if it came from a Christian Fundamentalist Sect, e.g. Branch Davidians, or Children of God, etc?

Was any religious theme an oblique comment on JonBenet's pageant appearances and the need to save her, hence SBTC?

.

I think JonBenet's death may have a sacrificial undertone to it.

Definition of ransom | Dictionary.com

a means of deliverance or rescue from punishment for sin, especially the payment of a redemptive fine.

Perhaps JonBenet was made to pay with her life for the sins of others.

 

[icedtea4me]

icedtea4me,
Nope, it was in one of Patsy's interviews:

BPD 1997 Patsy Interview , Excerpt


Patsy does not mention her Charlevoix vacation in her Christmas family-newsletter, why not?

John didn't want to move all the Christmas Gifts so he elected to have Christmas in Boulder, does that knock out the Secret Santa aspect?

Patsy has a another line:
Larry King Live - 27, 2000 - 9:00 p.m. ET , Excerpt


It's a curious one, but its evident John is calling the shots, leaving Patsy out of the loop about Charlevoix until the last moment?

IMO John's account is suspect regarding his reason for staying in Boulder, as he was so wealthy the cost of a flight plus luggage with all the Christmas gifts would represent a rounding error on his credit card statement.

If the case were JDI, John might have an ulterior motive for staying in Boulder at Christmas?

.

It was in John's and Patsy's 1997 interviews.

 

[Cottonstar]

Who nicknamed John Ramsey "iceman" and which book was that in?

Alex Hunter.

 

[proust20]

I think that S.B.T.C is a red herring. Just more nonsense along with Victory!

 

[Mimsy2]

Doe anyone have information on the Avalance sweatshirt listed on acandyrose on page 9 of the search warrant??
crimescene-inventory.htm

ETA ...NVM, I just read it may have been put on her upstairs. I'm assuming as well the afghan....

 

[UKGuy]

Doe anyone have information on the Avalance sweatshirt listed on acandyrose on page 9 of the search warrant??
crimescene-inventory.htm

ETA ...NVM, I just read it may have been put on her upstairs. I'm assuming as well the afghan....

Mimsy2,
Avalanche sweatshirt covering body (4KKY)

From memory once JonBenet was found and moved upstairs, someone placed something over her body?

It might have been this sweatshirt.

.

 

[wonderllama]

I think that S.B.T.C is a red herring. Just more nonsense along with Victory!

The reddest of herrings!

 

[icedtea4me]

The reddest of herrings!

 

[proust20]

icedtea4me
Ah, the wisdom of Rose!

 

[Cottonstar]

Doe anyone have information on the Avalance sweatshirt listed on acandyrose on page 9 of the search warrant??
crimescene-inventory.htm

ETA ...NVM, I just read it may have been put on her upstairs. I'm assuming as well the afghan....

Barbara Fernie grabbed the Avalanche sweatshirt off a chair in the living room and draped it over JonBenét’s bare feet after she was brought upstairs from the basement.

 

[Eskimopippa]

there are some things about this case that will never be known, but they are details that drive you nutz - here's a few I have, what are yours?

1. Why was it so important to the Ramseys' story that JonBenet was asleep when they got home and was taken directly to bed? Burke said she woke up and helped carry stuff into the house. We know she had pineapple, so why lie about her being asleep? It seems as though it would have been easier to say that she woke up when they pulled into the garage, they futzed around and had a snack and then went to bed - why was it important enough to lie about it? It's as if they were afraid to have anyone know the child was on the first floor that night between those hours - why? Did something happen in that part of the house?

2. Why did Burke act so strangely that morning? Why did he pretend to be asleep, and why didn't his parents wake him up and ask him if he had seen or heard anything in the night? Why when his father came up to get him to take him to White's house, did he remain silent and not ask any questions? That's not the way nine year old boys act - they want to know everything that's going on and if a cop walks in the house, they're fascinated by him, and want to know why he's there. This kid did not ask ONE question or exhibit any fear or curiosity at all. (In my opinion, someone put the fear of God in this kid to keep him quiet. I can hear it now, "no matter what anyone asks you, you say you don't know, do you hear me?? Do you want Mom and Dad in jail?? Don't say anything!!!, I mean it, Burke!!!) And I don't care what anyone says about everyone being "different", nine year old boys don't act like that in that kind
of situation - he didn't even ask, "is JonBenet going with us to the Whites?"

3. How did that blood get in the underwear? She's been wiped clean, but there is blood on the crotch panel - so she had to have had them on, been injured, wiped clean, and then the underwear put back on with the longjohns with the urine stain in the front - otherwise, how could the blood have gotten there? Which means she had that pair of underwear on, she was injured, the underwear were pulled up, and then someone thought better of it, pulled them down, wiped her clean and then pulled the underwear back up. How else could the blood have gotten on that part of the underwear?

4. Patsy Ramsey was so insistent on the ransom note being on the spiral staircase, saying, "and that's how I come down every morning." How would an intruder know that? Why not leave it in her bed, or on the kitchen counter or the windshield of the car, or the steps leading down from their bedroom, where the parents would be sure of seeing it. And why would she never admit to having read the damned thing? Or why wouldn't she read it in the first place? If it was my kid, I'd of have it memorized. She insinuated to LE that it was 'weird" that Fleet White knew it so well - well, anyone with a brain and a heart would be reading that note over and over wondering if there was anything about it that could tell them who killed that little girl. What's weird, is that Patsy Ramsey didn't do that.

This baloney that the parents shouldn't be suspected because of their behavior, because everyone acts "differently" is just that - baloney. If everyone acted differently, we wouldn't have societal norms, we wouldn't have traditions, we wouldn't know how to act appropriately in situations. Not to get into anything too esoteric, but there is a biological mechanism in the brain called "theory of mind mechanism". It allows us to understand and act appropriately in society, because we observe appropriate behavior and store those reactions in the brain. These parents didn't act in the way innocent parents act - they go on tv, but can't talk to the police. They call a lawyer the very day it happened, and then refuse to be interviewed, they have investigators on Dec. 27th, taking statements from people who were there that day and don't even inform the police. They give physical evidence but won't talk to the cops or take polygraphs or do one thing to remove themselves as suspects in the case. Things have to make sense and this just does not make any sense at all.

___

Thread #1

 

[Eskimopippa]

Excellent questions Bev. The one that has baffled me the most is the fact that BR did not awaken the morning the Ramsey's discovered JBR was missing. It is impossible to believe that ANYONE could sleep through 'Patsey's hysterical scream upon finding the ransom bite', frantic movements around the house whilst the Ramsey's were searching for JBR, phone calls made to the Ramsey's Lawyer(BEFORE contacting Police- who does that!?) and then a continual parade of Police, Friends and Family coming through the house! BR was without a doubt told to "stay in his room and be quiet" so as not to undo a carefully devised story.
BR has always been my number 1 suspect and the Ramsey's tried to cover up his crime.

 

[UKGuy]

Excellent questions Bev. The one that has baffled me the most is the fact that BR did not awaken the morning the Ramsey's discovered JBR was missing. It is impossible to believe that ANYONE could sleep through 'Patsey's hysterical scream upon finding the ransom bite', frantic movements around the house whilst the Ramsey's were searching for JBR, phone calls made to the Ramsey's Lawyer(BEFORE contacting Police- who does that!?) and then a continual parade of Police, Friends and Family coming through the house! BR was without a doubt told to "stay in his room and be quiet" so as not to undo a carefully devised story.
BR has always been my number 1 suspect and the Ramsey's tried to cover up his crime.

Eskimopippa,

1999 February 18 - Lawrence Schillers book "Perfect Murder, Perfect Town

Page 523:

"On Tuesday, June 9, as agreed, Pete Hofstrom and Dan Schuler traveled to Atlanta to interview Burke Ramsey. In preparation, they consulted the FBI and the Boulder detectives and reviewed the videotape of Burkes' January 8, 1997, interview. The interviews were to be conducted at a local district attornies office and videotaped. On three consecutive days June 10, 11 and 12 for two hours each day JonBenet’s brother would be questioned by Schuler, a police officer with a gift for talking to kids, a cop who didn’t like guns and never carried one."

When Schuler asked Burke if his mother and father had prepared him for the conversation, he said no. Gently Schuler explored whether Burke thought his sister had sometimes been a bad girl and gotten mad at people. They discussed which people she got mad at and whether she had been mean and nasty to those people. Schuler asked Burke if his mother and father ever got really mad at his sister. Burke said he didn't think so. Schuler's most important questions, never asked directly, was whether JonBenet had ever done something to bring about her death. Again Burke answered no. Had she fallen and hit her head? He didn't remember her doing that.

The most delicate part of the interview was getting Burke to answer questions without revealing what the police knew. First, he was asked if he ate any pineapple and when he went to bed. He didn't remember. What did he and his father talk about when they played with his Chrismas gift that night? Just that it was time for bed. Then Schuler asked what happened after Burke went to bed. Did he have any dreams? Did he hear anything in his sleep? Burke said he had heard voices, in the distance. Maybe it was a dream, maybe not. It was so long ago he said. Without mentioning the 911 tape, Schuler asked Burke when he got up that morning and how he awakened. He did not want the Ramsey's to learn what the police knew. The plan was to confront them about the tape during their own interviews, which would probably take place later in the month. Burke said he remembered waking up and hearing a loud conversation from down the hall or on the front stairs. Maybe his mother had come into his room, but he was sure he stayed in his bed and pretended to sleep. He was concerned while he pretended, he said. Burke told Schuler he was awake when his mother made the phone call. His parents might have thought he was asleep but he wasn't he said. When he was asked if he spoke to his parents that morning before being awaken at seven to be taken to the Whites' house, he said no. He said he had stayed in his room the whole time. The 911 tape seem to say otherwise. Had Burke been coached, or had his thinking changed independently since his January 1997 interview? The detectives wondered."

The parents later admitted Burke Ramsey was awake all the time.

.

 

[Eskimopippa]

Thanks for the informative article UKGuy. I had not heard this version before where BR claimed to be awake that morning. In my opinion his statement doesn't clarify the situation nor rule out the possibility that he was 'told' to stay in his room that morning by the Ramsey's. The most logical course of action to me would be to awaken BR and put him to the task of assisting his parents in locating JBR within the house. His actions that morning scream Guilty! Whether HIS personal guilt or the Ramsey's guilt!

 

[proust20]

In the Christmas morning photo, BR appears to be wearing an undershirt beneath his pajama top. No doubt, it was cold in the house. When BR went to bed the night of the murder, could he have been wearing the long johns that were found on JB?

 

[UKGuy]

In the Christmas morning photo, BR appears to be wearing an undershirt beneath his pajama top. No doubt, it was cold in the house. When BR went to bed the night of the murder, could he have been wearing the long johns that were found on JB?

proust20,
Yes, which follows from Kolar stating that fecally soiled pajama bottoms were found on JonBenet's bedroom floor.

Now for JonBenet aficionados the important missing feature of Kolar's pajama report is the color, now are they blue as in the Christmas morning photo or are they another color?

Also from memory did Fleet White not place Burke's pajamas beneath his pillow after making his bed?

So he should know the color?

Patsy invokes ramnesia on this subject.
1997 BPD Patsy Interview, Excerpt

TT: Okay. What kind of pajamas does Burke normally wear to bed?

PR: Oh, you know, cotton shirt and pants.

TT: Okay.

PR: knit kind of stuff.

TT: Okay. Do you remember what color of pajamas he was wearing that day?

PR: That he was wearing?

TT: Um hum.

PR: No, not exactly.

Kolar is citing a CSI report on the pajamas so it's likely they described the color, so why not Kolar?

Speculating, the fecally soiled pajamas might relate to postmortem activity indicating dysfunctional behavior?

Corroboration might be the linking of all fecal deposits back to Burke Ramsey, hint, hint; nudge, nudge; wink, wink. DNA test.

.

 

[Venom]

proust20,
Yes, which follows from Kolar stating that fecally soiled pajama bottoms were found on JonBenet's bedroom floor.

Now for JonBenet aficionados the important missing feature of Kolar's pajama report is the color, now are they blue as in the Christmas morning photo or are they another color?

Also from memory did Fleet White not place Burke's pajamas beneath his pillow after making his bed?

So he should know the color?

Patsy invokes ramnesia on this subject.
1997 BPD Patsy Interview, Excerpt


Kolar is citing a CSI report on the pajamas so it's likely they described the color, so why not Kolar?

Speculating, the fecally soiled pajamas might relate to postmortem activity indicating dysfunctional behavior?

Corroboration might be the linking of all fecal deposits back to Burke Ramsey, hint, hint; nudge, nudge; wink, wink. DNA test.

.

Why would PR need to ask "that he was wearing?" Surely she would know they were going to be asking about Christmas night and not about which pair he wasn't wearing. Which leads me to this- could they have had him change pj's and the ones he had on were put into a suitcase to be taken out of the house? Could they be some of the fibers that were found and not sourced?