Questions you'd like answers to...

[SerenitySprings]

Oh I plan to!! I didn't get around to it last night or today. I am doing it tonight for sure.

It's mostly erroneous and psychobabble but I did find this bit interesting:



He said relatively rare, not impossible.

I want to add some personal knowledge about personality disorders.

My son showed signs as a toddler but it really started ratcheting up around age 9. He was diagnosed with conduct disorder because people under the age of 18 should not normally be diagnosed with personality disorders because there is still time to change the wiring of the brain until full brain maturity, or between 25-27 years old.

In the case of my child, and others like him, he was able to be diagnosed early because of the number of incidences and his ability to voice his intentions at home and with therapists. The early diagnoses (about age 15, maybe 15 1/2,) were a tool used to protect students and faculty at his school.

Once he was about 16 1/2 it was clear that the therapies were not effective at calming his violent tendencies so he was asked to leave public school for a special school. (A particular incident occurred at his school that freaked everyone out enough that he was no longer allowed to be there. Keep in mind, this was a few years after he got kicked out of another school for being a homemade bomb to school.)

Once at the special school, he lasted for a few months before they advised us to help him get a GED because the school was not equipped to deal with someone like him.

So yes, it is very rare for people under the age of 18 to be diagnosed with anything other than conduct disorder but there are exceptions.

During my son's final hospitalization, we told the psychiatrist that we were keeping eyes on him 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. My husband and I took turns sleeping so my son was never, not even for 60 seconds, alone. The doctor said he was ready to diagnose him as a narcissistic psychopath and as hard as that was, he said we could rest easy knowing that he would never kill himself or put himself in serious danger because of the narcissism but we should still keep ourselves locked away from him if we were going to sleep at the same time.

My point is that BR may or may not have had traits of a psychopath. He may or may not have been diagnosed with conduct disorder. But I will say that if BR was anything like my kid, he definitely could have committed the crimes that night. We never had more children because it would not have been fair to another child to be born into a situation like ours.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[sedndun]

Denial is the first and immediate human response to tragedy, even if it is fleeting. I will never believe that a parent thought an unconscious child was a dead child, especially when there were zero outward signs of injury.

Swelling had not yet begun and does not start that soon, especially in a cool environment like a concrete basement floor. It would typically take approximately 3 days. We can tell that she was not swelling by looking at the photos of her fingers.

Stages of decomposition. Scholarly articles for information about human corpses in a controlled environment (cool basement) were hard to find. The best I can do is to give you some generic info about the timeline.

"During the first stage, called the fresh stage, usually lasting a day or two, the body doesn't change much outwardly, but chemicals released during cellular death begin to attract flies. The second stage begins when the body begins to swell and is called putrefaction or the bloated stage."

Thank you for the response. This does make it very clear that the cord was as viciously tight as intended.
I'm curious about your take on her state after the head blow. I've been told quite definitely by some that this could not have been mistaken for a child in a deep sleep. Do you agree or disagree? You are also stating that she could not have been mistaken for dead. Certainly we can't know for sure, but I wonder how you and any others would describe how JonBenet would have appeared in the time between the head blow and the strangulation. The only references I can find are fairly vague. Researching concussions there are signs, but it seems you have to know to look for them.

 

[kanzz]

Thank you for the response. This does make it very clear that the cord was as viciously tight as intended.
I'm curious about your take on her state after the head blow. I've been told quite definitely by some that this could not have been mistaken for a child in a deep sleep. Do you agree or disagree? You are also stating that she could not have been mistaken for dead. Certainly we can't know for sure, but I wonder how you and any others would describe how JonBenet would have appeared in the time between the head blow and the strangulation. The only references I can find are fairly vague. Researching concussions there are signs, but it seems you have to know to look for them.

I don't know that anyone can say definitively that JB couldn't have been mistaken for a child in a deep sleep. She might have initially appeared to be sleeping, but she couldn't have been roused. And that's the quickest differentiation for unconscious vs asleep.

If you've ever taken a CPR class, you know that the first thing you do is shake and shout, "Are you all right?"; then look, listen, and feel (look for chest rise and fall, listen for breathing, and feel for a pulse). I'll take this opportunity to make a PSA: All parents should take a CPR class and stay current.

I also don't know that anyone can say definitively when JB would have lost consciousness - if that would have been immediately after the head blow or not. But probably. My best educated guess is that she immediately fell unconscious.

These patients exhibit various types of respirations, but most often with this type of injury as intracranial pressure increases, we see Cheyne-Stokes breathing.

Hope this helps.

 

[otg]

To those who wonder how a parent could tighten the cord around their own (even if they thought her already dead) daughter's neck so garishly tight, keep in mind that a body does swell after death. If there are any medical professionals here, then maybe they can elaborate, but I'm thinking the cord around the neck possibly looks worse in the photos than it did when it was first applied.
Staging such a thing is awful enough, but I think anyone who has seen the pictures believes that only pure malice could have driven someone to tighten it so much- much more than would have been necessary. If swelling caused the cord to dig in deeper, then the one who applied it may not have gone to the extent that has been assumed.

RN for 37 years, and here's what I think (off the top of my head) - there wouldn't be any swelling post-mortem because the heart has stopped circulating blood. This isn't the same thing as when we have something tight around an extremity or a digit. The reason that causes swelling is due to circulation. It's a tourniquet effect. Once a person dies and circulation has stopped, this doesn't happen.
I didn't research this and I could be wrong. I'll look tomorrow. It's late. But for now -
I totally believe this strangulation was every bit as vicious as it appears and that the ligature was applied forcefully and deeply. However, it wouldn't have taken a great deal of strength with an unconscious 48# child. Of course it was pure malice - it was a strangulation. But I do not think it was staging. It was murder. And I think BDI.

There is a certain amount of swelling that occurs around a ligature that is left in place. Of course, the ligature has to be tight enough in the first place to be depressed into the skin. Over time the depth of the furrow appears deeper because of the settling of displaced fluids into the adjacent tissue. The following quote comes from an online source that refers to the furrow as “mainly a post-mortem phenomenon.”

Occasionally, when the ligature is still in position when the body is examined, it may appear to be deeply embedded in the skin, sometimes almost out of sight, and on its removal a deep groove may be seen in the skin. This embedding may be accentuated by edema of the tissues, especially above the ligature. Presumably, some passive transudation of tissue fluid continues even after the circulation has stopped, and as such, edema may continue to develop to some extent even after death, accentuating the depth of the groove.

http://medind.nic.in/jal/t05/i1/jalt05i1p10.pdf
​

(otg recommended reading, BTW)
​

​

Thanks for your response, but two points for clarity:
By staging I didn't mean that this was done after the girl had passed- only that the person tightening the cord may have thought she had. The heart would have been beating, though at a much slower rate due to the head blow.
What I'm more trying to get at is how the neck appears in the photos. Strangulation and death is thought to have taken place around midnight. The body was brought up after 1:00. The photos were taken that night I believe, so over 18 hours may have passed since death. Would there not be swelling of the body by then from decomposition, gasses in the body, trapped fluids, etc?
Thanks for any input you may have.

This post-mortem edema is not the same thing as “bloating,” which is one of the stages in corpse decomposition. From Wikipedia (bbm):

The second stage of decomposition is bloating; bacteria in the gut begin to break down the tissues of the body, releasing gas that accumulates in the intestines, which becomes trapped because of the early collapse of the small intestine. This bloating occurs largely in the abdomen, and sometimes in the mouth and genitals. The tongue may swell. This usually happens in about the second week of decomposition. Gas accumulation and bloating will continue until the body is decomposed sufficiently for the gas to escape.
​

 

[kanzz]

There is a certain amount of swelling that occurs around a ligature that is left in place. Of course, the ligature has to be tight enough in the first place to be depressed into the skin. Over time the depth of the furrow appears deeper because of the settling of displaced fluids into the adjacent tissue. The following quote comes from an online source that refers to the furrow as “mainly a post-mortem phenomenon.”

Occasionally, when the ligature is still in position when the body is examined, it may appear to be deeply embedded in the skin, sometimes almost out of sight, and on its removal a deep groove may be seen in the skin. This embedding may be accentuated by edema of the tissues, especially above the ligature. Presumably, some passive transudation of tissue fluid continues even after the circulation has stopped, and as such, edema may continue to develop to some extent even after death, accentuating the depth of the groove.

http://medind.nic.in/jal/t05/i1/jalt05i1p10.pdf
​

(otg recommended reading, BTW)
​

​

This post-mortem edema is not the same thing as “bloating,” which is one of the stages in corpse decomposition. From Wikipedia (bbm):

The second stage of decomposition is bloating; bacteria in the gut begin to break down the tissues of the body, releasing gas that accumulates in the intestines, which becomes trapped because of the early collapse of the small intestine. This bloating occurs largely in the abdomen, and sometimes in the mouth and genitals. The tongue may swell. This usually happens in about the second week of decomposition. Gas accumulation and bloating will continue until the body is decomposed sufficiently for the gas to escape.
​

Good article. Thanks for the link, otg. I found myself wishing that the author had defined "occasionally". In what percentage of cases? At what time period after the body was this found?
I was somewhat put off by the use of the word "presumably" without some scientific validation that this "passive transudation of tissue fluid continues even after the circulation has stopped". Wait, I guess that can't be fact-checked, now that I think about it. After all, nobody's going to strangle a test subject to just to test that theory.
I had difficulty finding anything about post-mortem edema. It's like hen's teeth.. Which makes me question it, but that's just my nature.

 

[Tadpole12]

http://medind.nic.in/jal/t05/i1/jalt05i1p10.pdf

(otg recommended reading, BTW)
​

...ty​

 

[Miz Adventure]

I think the autopsy report stated that JBR had bruising to the sides of her brain (forgotten the medical jargon used) which (imo) could possibly have been caused by her being shaken after she had received the head blow. Perhaps somebody was attempting to revive her?

 

[kanzz]

I think the autopsy report stated that JBR had bruising to the sides of her brain (forgotten the medical jargon used) which (imo) could possibly have been caused by her being shaken after she had received the head blow. Perhaps somebody was attempting to revive her?

imo, The pattern of the blood (from the Subdural and Subarachnoid hemorrhages) is indicative of a direct result of the head blow.

from the AR: "There is a thin film of subarachnoid hemorrhage overlying the entire right cerebral hemisphere. On the right cerebral hemisphere underlying the previously mentioned linear skull fracture is an extensive linear area of purple contusion extending from the right frontal area, posteriorly along the lateral aspect of the parietal region and into the occipital area. This area of contusion measures 8 inches in length with a width of up to 1.75 inches."

 

[BBB167893]

I think the autopsy report stated that JBR had bruising to the sides of her brain (forgotten the medical jargon used) which (imo) could possibly have been caused by her being shaken after she had received the head blow. Perhaps somebody was attempting to revive her?

I believe you are referring to the contrecoup contusion. And what you say could happen. Then again, it could have been a direct result of the blow itself.

 

[SerenitySprings]

Why do you suppose nobody found the body before JR was down there with FW?

1. Was the body not in the house but got moved in at some point that morning?

2. Was the body hidden elsewhere in the house and got moved to the WC at some point that morning?

3. Was the body hidden in the basement but elsewhere?

4. Was the body in the WC the whole time and the other 2 or 3 people who had gone down there just missed it?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[BoldBear]

Why do you suppose nobody found the body before JR was down there with FW?

1. Was the body not in the house but got moved in at some point that morning?

2. Was the body hidden elsewhere in the house and got moved to the WC at some point that morning?

3. Was the body hidden in the basement but elsewhere?

4. Was the body in the WC the whole time and the other 2 or 3 people who had gone down there just missed it?

Your guess is as good as anyone's. From all the reports, no one really went into that room. The door was briefly opened, but that's it. I don't believe the body was put into any of the crawl spaces because there would have been a lot of dirt transfer. There was lint on the bottom of her feet which could indicate that she walked on a dirty basement floor before she died, but we have limited information. She could have picked that up when unconscious and being dressed but how that got onto her feet is speculation.

Officer French discovered the door latched. Since he was only looking for possible exits and the door couldn't have been latched from the other side, he didn't bother to open the door. Fleet White briefly opened the door. It swings back toward the basement hallway. It was dark inside and he couldn't find a light switch so he didn't go any further.

 

[SerenitySprings]

The book "Listen Carefully" posits a theory that perhaps water was used tin an attempt to clean out the inside of the vagina with water. Is it possible that the person who tried to clean up any evidence might have used a douche on JB? We have the microscopic bit of cellulose, which is consistent with the paint brush handle, but could a douche have caused the scarring of the vaginal tissues and part of the damaged hymen?

If the abuse was related to JB being dirty for wetting the bed or whatever, could someone with access to the child have used a douche a number of times on the child?

Has anyone ever heard of anyone close to JB having OCD? Has anyone ever heard of an adult abusing a child with a douche?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[BoldBear]

The book "Listen Carefully" posits a theory that perhaps water was used tin an attempt to clean out the inside of the vagina with water. Is it possible that the person who tried to clean up any evidence might have used a douche on JB? We have the microscopic bit of cellulose, which is consistent with the paint brush handle, but could a douche have caused the scarring of the vaginal tissues and part of the damaged hymen?

If the abuse was related to JB being dirty for wetting the bed or whatever, could someone with access to the child have used a douche a number of times on the child?

Has anyone ever heard of anyone close to JB having OCD? Has anyone ever heard of an adult abusing a child with a douche?

OCD? You mean a pilot that leaves his family on Christmas day to wipe-down and inspect his company's private jet? Or is it the woman who has painters paint her living room over and over again to get the color right?

I haven't read "Listen Carefully" yet. The murderer douching JB is new to me. There's been a long discussion about the possibility of Patsy douching JB with several theories why she would do such a thing.

 

[southernmimi]

OCD? You mean a pilot that leaves his family on Christmas day to wipe-down and inspect his company's private jet? Or is it the woman who has painters paint her living room over and over again to get the color right?

I haven't read "Listen Carefully" yet. The murderer douching JB is new to me. There's been a long discussion about the possibility of Patsy douching JB with several theories why she would do such a thing.

I've just read the statement in "listen carefully" about the possibility of water being used to cleanse JB's vagina after her death. With the damage and vaginal scar tissue, I've also wondered if it was caused by douching rather than sexual abuse. LHP made the statement that Patsy took JBR into a bathroom with closed door and did something to make her scream. Seems like a form of punishment for the bedwetting/soiling problems.

 

[digginin]

Please can anyone check out the ""heart" in jbr hand

 

[andreww]

Why do you suppose nobody found the body before JR was down there with FW?

1. Was the body not in the house but got moved in at some point that morning?

2. Was the body hidden elsewhere in the house and got moved to the WC at some point that morning?

3. Was the body hidden in the basement but elsewhere?

4. Was the body in the WC the whole time and the other 2 or 3 people who had gone down there just missed it?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

The only one to enter that room was Fleet White. It was too dark to see the white blanket and he couldn't find the light switch. Subsequent tests prove this, which makes the fact that John spotted the body before turning on the light suspicious.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Miz Adventure]

The only one to enter that room was Fleet White. It was too dark to see the white blanket and he couldn't find the light switch. Subsequent tests prove this, which makes the fact that John spotted the body before turning on the light suspicious.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm not so sure that FW would have missed seeing that white blanket - even in a dark room. There was light coming from the hallway.

I suspect that the reason he did not see JBR in the wine cellar was because her body had not yet been placed there.

 

[TeaTime]

I think the body was always in the WC but was hidden behind some things, such as those screens and this is why FW didn't see it when he opened the door.

It's all BS. PR said that she sent FW down to the basement for wine just days before the murder, he would know where the light switch was and if he needed it to see into the space, he would have flipped it on. I think JR went down there and moved the body into a more visible position but not from another room, car trunk or crawl space - just out from behind whatever was in front of it.

 

[Tadpole12]

Yes TT!

The screens would have obstructed the view.

 

[Tadpole12]

I've just read the statement in "listen carefully" about the possibility of water being used to cleanse JB's vagina after her death. With the damage and vaginal scar tissue, I've also wondered if it was caused by douching rather than sexual abuse. LHP made the statement that Patsy took JBR into a bathroom with closed door and did something to make her scream. Seems like a form of punishment for the bedwetting/soiling problems.

Heyya southernmimi

IDK I've searched online for any mention of the
practice, and there is absolutely none.
ie It is not common practice to douche a young girl.

Also, it has been said that the erosion of the hymen was particular to the pattern of right handed digital penetration, whereas the douche nozzle is cylindrical and would contact the entire
circumferential surface?