Questions you'd like answers to...

[kanzz]

Why would PR let the children stay up when she knew they were leaving early the next morning?

And again, I just don't understand: PR knew by simply looking at her? She didn't touch her; didn't attempt CPR; didn't completely freak the F... out; didn't immediately call 911 even if there was no pulse or no breath. This is her daughter we're talking about. If she was completely innocent before the attack ever occurred, she would have done all of these things.

I'm not sure why PR would let her kids stay up late. But I don't think we can view anything about the R family or what went on that night based on our own life experiences, because somebody in that household murdered that little girl... and I know that kind of thing never happened in my family.
I don't think PR had established very good boundaries with either of the kids, jmo. And maybe it just didn't matter much. After all, they could sleep on the plane in the morning and that would keep them quiet.
Also, remember what Linda Hoffman-Pugh said, "They were spoiled."

It would only have taken a matter of seconds for her to figure out that JB was dead; what with mucous all down the side of her face, a cord tight around her neck, her clothes saturated with urine, and her being non-responsive and not breathing.
As I said, I suspect that-
BR was either caught immediately after by PR, or
BR went to bed immediately after, and then
PR found JB.
Maybe he did go to bed and then PR went upstairs and asked him. Idk.

I agree that she should have called 911 and given an accurate report, but she didn't.

 

[kanzz]

I can't say that I disagree with any of this. My question then becomes; when did John become aware of what had happened? Some have theorized that it happened when he discovered the body at about 11:00 am. What puzzles me is that the ransom note states that they will be called between 8:00 & 10:00. John is designated as the person that will field the call. At precisely 10:00 John disappears for about 80 minutes. In my opinion this shows that John knew damned well that there would be no call. He dutifully waited those two hours, then disappeared. I don't know about you but if my daughter had been kidnapped you would have had to pry me away from that phone.

So was John already aware of JBs death or was he simply clueing in on things like the bizarre ransom note, Patsy's over the top acting, or possibly lies that she was already telling detectives? By 10:00 was he convinced that the whole kidnapping was a charade and he decided to go on a fact finding mission?

But most importantly, I don't believe that anybody but John went to bed when they got home at about 9:00. Logic tells me that because of the early morning departure, Patsy would not have let the kids stay up late either, so whatever happened happened quickly. Because JB obviously had a full bladder at the time of death, and because we know that she had bed wetting issues, Logically if she were readied for bed she would have been made to use the toilet first. So more than likely when they got home, Burke and JB got into their pyjamas then went downstairs to play for a bit. Patsy went to pack in JARs room. John went to bed (according to LHP John never helped with the children). I believe, after a quick snack, that JB was lured to the basement by Burke with the flashlight, possibly on the premise of finding the gifts in the WC (Could Burke have been the secret Santa that JB talked about?).

From there the order of events are anyone's guess and the evidence simply isn't strong enough to put together anything more than a guess.

These are good thoughts. JMO - he knew the RN was PR's handwriting & he might have even quizzed her about it, which also might be why she did the phone-a-friend thing after the 911 call - because she needed to have emotional support and she knew JR was on edge. Even Victim's Advocates later said they thought JR & PR were either divorced or estranged, they were so distant.

Does this 80 min MIA time from 10:40-12:00 mean that he knew something, or that he was trying to piece it together? I think he was piecing it together bit by bit. He told his daughter's boyfriend that he found JB at 11:00. I think he actually did. As Kolar said, a spontaneous utterance.

 

[icedtea4me]

*snip*A mother will not generally look to the skies and beg Lazarus to raise her daughter from the dead.*snip*

I agree.

 

[k-mac]

In other words, they made zero attempt to save her. They walked into the room, saw her lying there, and said, "well, she's dead. Let's start the cover-up." Makes no sense to me.

Also, I disagree that everything that was performed that night could have been done by a nine year old. Strangling a person in general would have been difficult (physically, if not emotionally) for another child to perform, for starters. Completely disagree, actually, but I know we'll just get in a circular argument.

so agree!
I cant see BR sexually assaulting her.....bashing her over the head which clearly almost killed her.
why would a kid linger and delay if killing her was his purpose.
kids generally do not have impulse control and we know for certainty that BR sure as hell lacked it.
if BR bashed her over the head with intent to kill her I believe he would have kept hitting her over the head until she was dead. ...then and there.
the strangulation was a completely different crime scene and I believe a completely different offender. I don't believe PR could have done the strangulation but we know from forensics she was there. leaves the CEO in charge of the mercy killing imo

 

[BBB167893]

A ransom note is generally brief and succinct. A mother will not generally look to the skies and beg Lazarus to raise her daughter from the dead. Patsy was overdramatic to the nth degree. Did they have to stage? Maybe not, but that is obviously not Patsy's style. Everything that woman does is a big production. Can we agree on that?

Here's one vote.

 

[AndHence]

From the moment I first delved into this case when I read Steve Thomas's book up until now, I can never fully convince myself that the case isn't PDI. All roads lead back to her eventually and the strongest forensic evidence links her to the cover-up at the very least. I remain a RDI generalist, uncommitted to any particular version of who did it, but I always find PDI the most logical and the one that fits the known evidence.

 

[BoldBear]

I'm in the dark dark dark about the facts. The rope that was found in JAR's room. It was found in a bag? In a backpack? Brown paper bag fibers were found on JB's bed that tie the bag and the rope to the crime. In the depositions, they keep saying that the bag in the photos an evidentiary bag.

Was it in a backpack or a brown paper bag?

 

[icedtea4me]

so agree!
I cant see BR sexually assaulting her.....bashing her over the head which clearly almost killed her.
why would a kid linger and delay if killing her was his purpose.
kids generally do not have impulse control and we know for certainty that BR sure as hell lacked it.
if BR bashed her over the head with intent to kill her I believe he would have kept hitting her over the head until she was dead. ...then and there.
the strangulation was a completely different crime scene and I believe a completely different offender. I don't believe PR could have done the strangulation but we know from forensics she was there. leaves the CEO in charge of the mercy killing imo

Thank you for expressing what I've been thinking for quite some time.

 

[AndHence]

The most important thing about all of the items used in the crime is that they originated from the house. An intruder intent on killing or perhaps botching a kidnapping of a young girl would not need to fashion a toggle rope, would not apply a tiny sliver of tape to silence the victim (he'd wrap an entire piece all the way around the back of the head to the front of the face), and would not write a ransom note in the house in their own handwriting to boot. The Ramseys muddied the waters to make them appear deep.

 

[kanzz]

so agree!
I cant see BR sexually assaulting her.....bashing her over the head which clearly almost killed her.
why would a kid linger and delay if killing her was his purpose.
kids generally do not have impulse control and we know for certainty that BR sure as hell lacked it.
if BR bashed her over the head with intent to kill her I believe he would have kept hitting her over the head until she was dead. ...then and there.
the strangulation was a completely different crime scene and I believe a completely different offender. I don't believe PR could have done the strangulation but we know from forensics she was there. leaves the CEO in charge of the mercy killing imo

Maybe the bash over the head was intended to kill JB, maybe not.

I'll bet there are more people who think that it wasn't intended to kill than those who think it was.

Maybe after he struck her, he started to panic when she lost consciousness and didn't regain it. He had to have known he would be in trouble if JB told on him. So maybe that is when he decided that his only way out was to kill her - to remove that possibility, just as it happens in so many other crimes when the victim ends up being killed only because the perp doesn't want the victim to talk about the other assault.

 

[questfortrue]

I'm in the dark dark dark about the facts. The rope that was found in JAR's room. It was found in a bag? In a backpack? Brown paper bag fibers were found on JB's bed that tie the bag and the rope to the crime. In the depositions, they keep saying that the bag in the photos an evidentiary bag.

Was it in a backpack or a brown paper bag?

Here’s a post by KK which will clear up the paper bag fiber in the bed which Smit liked to tout -
http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?9830-The-interloping-rope&p=180717#post180717

And an ACR link to the rope discussion with Patsy - http://www.acandyrose.com/s-evidence-bedroom-JAR.htm

LE used paper sacks for transporting evidence. There were not two paper sacks, btw; according to Kane who mentioned this once on the air, the rope was found in a duffle in JAR’s room.

On another topic, I meant to add something to your post about sheets and have been distracted.
Here is what Kolar wrote: Smit discounted observations made by the investigators and CSIs who had processed the scene shortly after the murder: the sheets on JonBenét’s bed reeked of urine. (FF)

I’ve been told that dried sheets are said to reek more than wet sheets, so it doesn't tell me that she did or did not go to bed that night. If the urine stained underwear she was wearing when she died can be read as a possible sign that she never went to bed on Christmas night, it may be that Patsy had not changed her sheets Christmas morning/day? IDK. Some think that JB went to her own bed on Christmas Eve, wet the bed, got up, put clean pajamas on and went to BR’s room to sleep. An alternative explanation is that she wet the bed Christmas Eve and put on clean pjs in the morning for the opening of presents.

And then I wonder, well if the bed reeked of urine, why weren’t the sheets changed when Patsy and JB were in the bedroom with JB dressing for the party? Patsy was extremely evasive about when she had last changed the sheets on JB's bed. It’s hard to imagine that any mother would put her child to bed in sheets which ‘reeked.’ It may have been because she didn’t want to admit that her whole story of putting her to bed ‘zonked’ was make-believe? The bedding discussion, I confess, makes me crazy for the very reason I just mentioned. What mother would put her daughter to bed, before a big day flying out of town, meeting her stepsister’s fiancé, and wouldn’t care if the sheets smelled?

The amount of urine on those long johns was significant, so this post is conjecturing that she never went to bed and had a bedwetting incident Christmas night.

 

[BoldBear]

Here’s a post by KK which will clear up the paper bag fiber in the bed which Smit liked to tout -
http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?9830-The-interloping-rope&p=180717#post180717

And an ACR link to the rope discussion with Patsy - http://www.acandyrose.com/s-evidence-bedroom-JAR.htm

LE used paper sacks for transporting evidence. There were not two paper sacks, btw; according to Kane who mentioned this once on the air, the rope was found in a duffle in JAR’s room.

On another topic, I meant to add something to your post about sheets and have been distracted.
Here is what Kolar wrote: Smit discounted observations made by the investigators and CSIs who had processed the scene shortly after the murder: the sheets on JonBenét’s bed reeked of urine. (FF)

I’ve been told that dried sheets are said to reek more than wet sheets, so it doesn't tell me that she did or did not go to bed that night. If the urine stained underwear she was wearing when she died can be read as a possible sign that she never went to bed on Christmas night, it may be that Patsy had not changed her sheets Christmas morning/day? IDK. Some think that JB went to her own bed on Christmas Eve, wet the bed, got up, put clean pajamas on and went to BR’s room to sleep. An alternative explanation is that she wet the bed Christmas Eve and put on clean pjs in the morning for the opening of presents.

And then I wonder, well if the bed reeked of urine, why weren’t the sheets changed when Patsy and JB were in the bedroom with JB dressing for the party? Patsy was extremely evasive about when she had last changed the sheets on JB's bed. It’s hard to imagine that any mother would put her child to bed in sheets which ‘reeked.’ It may have been because she didn’t want to admit that her whole story of putting her to bed ‘zonked’ was make-believe? The bedding discussion, I confess, makes me crazy for the very reason I just mentioned. What mother would put her daughter to bed, before a big day flying out of town, meeting her stepsister’s fiancé, and wouldn’t care if the sheets smelled?

The amount of urine on those long johns was significant, so this post is conjecturing that she never went to bed and had a bedwetting incident Christmas night.

Thanks for your reply.

I had been reading about the rope on ACR before I posted. I love that source. I've been going over the two things: the rope in the bag and the fiber evidence that was found on her bed. I kept trying to get this right in my head. Koldkase is amazing. The paper bag was probably cross contamination. Wow, how these little details confuse. That solved the conflict. Thank you for pointing me in the right direction. I really appreciate it.

I did quote Paula Woodward's book in answering a previous question and I don't consider PW a very good source. I am aware about the comments about the smell from the investigators. As I recall, some test did indicated there was urine on the sheets, but my memory's a little fuzzy on that one and I'd have to go back to the sources.

This is where I get to be bogged-down in details again. Urine leaves noticeable stains and as I recall the stains come out when laundered (unless your on that stuff that makes your pee blue :wink. Wouldn't the investigators notice a urine outline? The mattress was covered in plastic. Was it Patsy's habit to wipe down the plastic before changing the sheets or did she just pull the sheets off and toss them in the washer? Could the bedspread come into contact with urine too? I lean toward JB peeing the bed, but the amount of urine on the long johns brings that into question.

I like your reasoning that Patsy may not have changed the sheets from a previous night. You don't like the idea that a mother wouldn't change the bed sheets, but Patsy was (I want to say' fried' but I'll settle for) exhausted. The party on the 23rd was not planned for in advance. She was notified on the 20th. With everything she had to do, an early Christmas may not have been the only reason why JB wanted to sleep in Burke's bedroom.

 

[Userid]

From the moment I first delved into this case when I read Steve Thomas's book up until now, I can never fully convince myself that the case isn't PDI. All roads lead back to her eventually and the strongest forensic evidence links her to the cover-up at the very least. I remain a RDI generalist, uncommitted to any particular version of who did it, but I always find PDI the most logical and the one that fits the known evidence.

Completely agree. With the evidence that actually has been released, this is the most fair and logical conclusion; there is way too much speculation and assumption with BDI, for me personally. Maybe there is extra hidden evidence that points to him -- I don't know -- but from what's been released, I agree.

 

[Userid]

so agree!
I cant see BR sexually assaulting her.....bashing her over the head which clearly almost killed her.
why would a kid linger and delay if killing her was his purpose.
kids generally do not have impulse control and we know for certainty that BR sure as hell lacked it.
if BR bashed her over the head with intent to kill her I believe he would have kept hitting her over the head until she was dead. ...then and there.
the strangulation was a completely different crime scene and I believe a completely different offender. I don't believe PR could have done the strangulation but we know from forensics she was there. leaves the CEO in charge of the mercy killing imo

Yes, agree also. He would have kept hitting her. I could definitely see PR putting the tape on, as the fibers indicate, and wrapping her in the blanket.

 

[BoldBear]

I like your reasoning that Patsy may not have changed the sheets from a previous night. You don't like the idea that a mother wouldn't change the bed sheets, but Patsy was (I want to say' fried' but I'll settle for) exhausted. The party on the 23rd was not planned for in advance. She was notified on the 20th. With everything she had to do, an early Christmas may not have been the only reason why JB wanted to sleep in Burke's bedroom.

After a good night's sleep. I'm expanding on what I said previously.

I never took the idea the JB may have spent the night in another bedroom seriously. It does, however, open the door to other possibilities. Let's say she wore pull-ups that night because she wasn't sleeping in her bed--no plastic over the mattress. Her pillow was on the foot of her bed. If she slept in another room, would she have taken it with her? Her favorite blanket may not have been on her bed at all (many people think it never made it out of the dryer until later), but she may have had it with her in another room. That leaves the question of Burke's room, Melinda's room or JAR's room. There are really easy motives that put her into Burke's or JAR's room for the night.

 

[Cranberry]

BoldBear, I've seen a photo of Burke's room with the 2nd bed by the window, but I'm not sure if it is a BPD photo. It would be helpful to have one to determine if there is a pillow on the bed, condition, color of sheets - dark?), etc. The photo I saw had a dark pillow on it. This is snipped from PR's 6/98 interview about the photos regarding Burke's room. The surgical mask moved from JAR's room to Burke's room, but you know, they moved all over the house:

6 TOM HANEY: Okay. 288.
7 PATSY RAMSEY: A drawer, it looks like a
8 drawer in Burke's room. School work and stuff, a
9 chair, clothes on the floor.
10 TOM HANEY: But nothing unusual?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
12 TOM HANEY: 289.
13 PATSY RAMSEY: This looks like a drawer. I
14 think this was a little chest of drawers in Burke's
15 room. Junk stuff in there, note pad (inaudible).
16 Crayons.
17 TOM HANEY: 290.
18 PATSY RAMSEY: This is a shoe book. This is
19 a -- looks like one of those surgical masks kind of
20 thing. We had to wear that when I had chemo. They
21 were all over the house so I wouldn't get germs from
22 kids or whatever.
23 John Andrew's picture. Burke's little art
24 work there. A cassette.

 

[BoldBear]

BoldBear, I've seen a photo of Burke's room with the 2nd bed by the window, but I'm not sure if it is a BPD photo. It would be helpful to have one to determine if there is a pillow on the bed, condition, color of sheets - dark?), etc. The photo I saw had a dark pillow on it. This is snipped from PR's 6/98 interview about the photos regarding Burke's room. The surgical mask moved from JAR's room to Burke's room, but you know, they moved all over the house:

6 TOM HANEY: Okay. 288.
7 PATSY RAMSEY: A drawer, it looks like a
8 drawer in Burke's room. School work and stuff, a
9 chair, clothes on the floor.
10 TOM HANEY: But nothing unusual?
11 PATSY RAMSEY: No.
12 TOM HANEY: 289.
13 PATSY RAMSEY: This looks like a drawer. I
14 think this was a little chest of drawers in Burke's
15 room. Junk stuff in there, note pad (inaudible).
16 Crayons.
17 TOM HANEY: 290.
18 PATSY RAMSEY: This is a shoe book. This is
19 a -- looks like one of those surgical masks kind of
20 thing. We had to wear that when I had chemo. They
21 were all over the house so I wouldn't get germs from
22 kids or whatever.
23 John Andrew's picture. Burke's little art
24 work there. A cassette.

I don't understand what a surgical mask had anything to do with my posting.

If we consider Burke's room, we know that his bed was made before he left for the Whites. John was the only one who really cleaned-up. JB did have a chore list and on it was 'make bed' so I'll assume that Burke did too. But if JB used the other bed in his room that night, it was made my the morning. Now assuming that the investigators know that she stayed in his room on Christmas Eve, any possible forensic evidence putting her in the bed would mean nothing. I'm not seeding for my own theory here. I'm only exploring a possibility that I hadn't seriously considered. She may not have stayed in her bedroom that night because the sheets in her bedroom had been peed on previously.

 

[Cranberry]

Sorry, I just mentioned the surgical mask because JAR's room looked like the drawers had been rifled through and that's where the masks were kept, and then there's one that shows up in BR's bedroom in the photo. I don't think it is related to the crime, but I do think Patsy was here, there - everywhere. I never really considered Burke's bed, it looks like she never went to sleep anywhere that night, but all the bedrooms seemed to have had a lot of activity, with train tracks, hairties, duffelbag with rope, etc. thrown on the floor. So disregard, just thinking out loud lol

 

[TeaTime]

Sorry, I just mentioned the surgical mask because JAR's room looked like the drawers had been rifled through and that's where the masks were kept, and then there's one that shows up in BR's bedroom in the photo. I don't think it is related to the crime, but I do think Patsy was here, there - everywhere. I never really considered Burke's bed, it looks like she never went to sleep anywhere that night, but all the bedrooms seemed to have had a lot of activity, with train tracks, hairties, duffelbag with rope, etc. thrown on the floor. So disregard, just thinking out loud lol

All except the master BR which has one side made up and the other not.

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

Only the second bed seems to have plastic over the mattress in this photo... :thinking: