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The reason I asked is because during the 911 call, the operator asks Patsy who the note is from. Patsy doesn't say a foreign faction. She tells the operator "it says SBTC Victory". I know if I were in this situation and the operator asked me, I don't think I would be able to recite the initials without looking at the last page of the RN at that moment. I thought JR had the note on the floor and was reading it.

I checked Kolar's book and according to Patsy's first interview, he was.
John was on his hands and knees reading the note when Patsy called 911 from a nearby kitchen wall phone.
Before that she said this:
She could not recall if she had handled the ransom note, and had only read the first few lines before seeing the part about someone having her daughter. She immediately ran back upstairs to check on JonBenét.
I also thought it was bizarre that despite claiming to have only read the first few lines - where the "kidnappers" clearly identify themselves as a Small Foreign Faction - and despite not having access to the note, she used the complicated abbreviation from the end. It took me a few readings to be able to rattle it off and according to her, she never read it. Kolar later described that as a fact investigators found troubling.


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I checked Kolar's book and according to Patsy's first interview, he was.

Before that she said this:

I also thought it was bizarre that despite claiming to have only read the first few lines - where the "kidnappers" clearly identify themselves as a Small Foreign Faction - and despite not having access to the note, she used the complicated abbreviation from the end. It took me a few readings to be able to rattle it off and according to her, she never read it. Kolar later described that as a fact investigators found troubling.


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DrollForeignFaction,
Good catch.

I just assume the R's are lying most of the time. Why would JR still be reading the RN on his knees?

Why would Patsy dial 911 without consulting JR?

Of course we all know Patsy wrote the note and SBTC has specific meaning for her, that she quoted it is a red flag.

The R's just cobbled some narrative together and told the investigators this is how it happened. They knew it could never be fact checked, if they got something wrong they could just blame it on stress?

.
 
JR running down 2 flights of stairs to kneel on the floor in his underwear to read the note is just another bit of preposterous. Plus, Fernie said he read some of it, upside down, through the patio door, so JR had to take the note from the stairwell down the hall to the other side of the house in order to read it? Were the kitchen lights not functioning? Are we supposed to believe that he brought it to the glass doors for lighting when it was still dark out?

They are a mess but they got away with it all.
 
That would make sense. Of course she held it. Probably multiple times.


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Patsy wrote it whilst wearing latex gloves. I doubt if the note was ever put on the stairs - just straight onto the floor - which itself seems strange to me. Why would somebody take a ransom note off the stairs and place it on the floor and not onto the kitchen counter - just a few steps away? It would be a lot easier to read than having to crouch down on all fours, as John stated he had done. Another piece of ridiculousness.

The only reason I assume the note was even on the floor was because the Fernies said they read it through the door in the butlers pantry.

And that also strikes me as extremely strange. If the note was placed on the wooden floor below the spiral staircase (as Patsy stated) - how could the Fernies read it from outside the butler's pantry door? And why not simply open the door instead of trying to read it through the door? And the note would be at an angle, wouldn't it, not even facing them?

I'm not sure we can trust what the Fernies said anymore than we can trust what the R's stated.
 
I'm pretty sure officer French stated that the note was on the floor when he arrived. But yeah, no place the Ramseys claimed the note was placed makes any sense.


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I'm sorry to get so graphic, so please don't read my question if you are sensitive. My question is why would the sexual pervert, whether John or another male use the paint brush for vaginal penetration rather than a more intimate way such as a finger? Sorry! This has been bugging me for ages, and why I believe it was Patsy rather than John or an intruder. They would want it more "personal" interaction, wouldn't you think?

sheba1,
There may have been both. Coroner Meyer said at the autopsy that JonBenet had been digitally assaulted, i.e. by a finger.

I've never read what he thought about any assault using the paintbrush, yet again the birefringent material could have arrived on JonBenet via digital interaction?

The missing piece of paintbrush might have been found inside JonBenet, note the silence of this subject, one easily resolved, and been redacted as standard procedure?

So you might suggest both forms of assault happened, one with a sexual motive, the other with a desire to mask the sexual assault.

Another perspective is that the digital and paintbrush assaults were perpetrated by the same person, with the parents cleaning JonBenet later, and we are all interpreting the evidence according to our favorite theory.

Only Kolar has ever suggested BDI All, which appears to be consistent with the forensic evidence, but confounds our understanding of what a nine-year old boy might be capable of?

.
 
Wasn't there some mention about some glue on Jonbenet face at one time? I think I saw it in a discussion about the stun gun or somethin. Although I don't think it was in the autopsyreport.
 
I Spy another bottle of cleaning spray

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I have a question that has bothered me since I started watching the tv specials and also after some things I have read about the case. According to several things I have read, there was suspicion of repeated sexual abuse. Then when I watched the CBS special about the case, there was discussion that indicated they did not believe there was a pattern of sexual abuse. So which is it? I also believe it was on the CBS special that they discussed small pieces of wood found in the vagina that they believed was from the paint brush! Anyone have any thoughts regarding prior sexual abuse? And if so, who was abusing her?
 
I have a question that has bothered me since I started watching the tv specials and also after some things I have read about the case. According to several things I have read, there was suspicion of repeated sexual abuse. Then when I watched the CBS special about the case, there was discussion that indicated they did not believe there was a pattern of sexual abuse. So which is it? I also believe it was on the CBS special that they discussed small pieces of wood found in the vagina that they believed was from the paint brush! Anyone have any thoughts regarding prior sexual abuse? And if so, who was abusing her?

evilgenuis1,
Depends on your theory. JR, PR and BR have been suspected of abusing JonBenet.

There is alleged physical evidence of chronic abuse due to internal scarring, and patently acute abuse that night due to bleeding and the Coroner citing Digital Penetration and Sexual Contact.

Even if you leave out the chronic abuse the evidence suggests a sexual assault the same night JonBenet was killed, others explain this away as staging.

.
 
The Boulder police department contacted several pathologists and pediatric experts. These were: -Dr. James Monteleone, Professor of Pediatrics at St Louis University School of Medicine; -Dr. David Jones, from University of Colorado Health Sciences Center; -Dr. Ronald Wright, medical examiner Cook County Illinois; -Dr. Virginia Rau, medical examiner, Dade County, Florida; -and Dr. John McCann, Clinical Professor of Medicine at University of California at Davis.

This last is, or at least was at the time, considered the foremost authority on child sexual abuse in the United States. He was instrumental in establishing proper methods and findings for determining sexual abuse. In August of 1997, Dr. McCann examined the autopsy report, autopsy photos and microscopic slides of JonBenet's vaginal tissue. His findings were as follows: "According to McCann, examination findings that indicate chronic sexual abuse include the thickness of the rim of the hymen, irregularity of the edge of the hymen, the width or narrowness of the wall of the hymen, and exposure of structures of the vagina normally covered by the hymen. His report stated that there was evidence of prior hymeneal trauma as all of these criteria were seen in the post mortem examination of JonBenet. There was a three dimensional thickening from inside to outside on the inferior hymeneal rim with a bruise apparent on the external surface of the hymen and a narrowing of the hymeneal rim from the edge of the hymen to where it attaches to the muscular portion of the vaginal openings. At the narrowing area, there appeared to be very little if any hymen present. There was also exposure of the vaginal rugae, a structure of the vagina which is normally covered by an intact hymen. The hymeneal orifice measured one centimeter which is abnormal or unusual for this particular age group and is further evidence of prior sexual abuse with a more recent injury as shown by the bruised area on the inferior hymeneal rim. A generalized increase in redness of the tissues of the vestibule was apparent, and small red flecks of blood were visible around the perineum and the external surface of the genitalia.


Dr. McCann explained the term "chronic abuse" meant only that it was "repeated", but that the number of incidents could not be determined. In the case of JonBenet, the doctor could only say that there was evidence of “prior abuse". The examination results were evidence that there was at least one prior penetration of the vagina through the hymeneal membrane. The change in the hymeneal structure is due to healing from a prior penetration. However, it was not possible to determine the number of incidents nor over what period of time. Because the prior injury had healed, any other incidents of abuse probably were more than 10 days prior." Upon examination of the materials mentioned, the other experts came to similar conclusions, as outlined by case detective Steve Thomas: "In mid-September, a panel of pediatric experts from around the country reached one of the major conclusions of the investigation - that JonBenet had suffered vaginal trauma prior to the day she was killed. There were no dissenting opinions among them on the issue, and they firmly rejected any possibility that the trauma to the hymen and chronic vaginal inflammation were caused by urination issues or masturbation. We gathered affidavits stating in clear language that there were injuries 'consistent with prior trauma and sexual abuse' 'There was chronic abuse'. . .'Past violation of the vagina'. . .'Evidence of both acute and injury and chronic sexual abuse.' In other words, the doctors were saying it had happened before." Dr. Richard Krugman, Dean of the University of Colorado Medical School, an expert first contacted for assistance in the Ramsey case by the D.A.’s office, was the most adamant supporter of the finding of chronic sexual abuse. These findings were presented to the Boulder DA's office in June 1998, along with a side-by-side photo comparison between a normal six-year-old's vagina and that of JonBenet. The difference was described as startling.

Credit: A very knowledgeable person on Reddit.

As for whodunnit, your guess is as good as mine.
 
I Spy another bottle of cleaning spray

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That caught my eye, too, while taking screen captures yesterday. For some reason the placement of the bottles of cleaning spray just seems odd to me. I wonder if there are other examples around the house.
 
That caught my eye, too, while taking screen captures yesterday. For some reason the placement of the bottles of cleaning spray just seems odd to me. I wonder if there are other examples around the house.

PR couldn't even tidy up - let alone clean - IMO - that's why the cleaning spray seems so odd. Heaven knows what happened to that little girl.
 
My housekeeper leaves spray bottles all over the house. Water bottles, cleaning supplies, rags always get left behind somewhere.

I am sure someone cleaned up after the gingerbread making and things just got left out.
 
I have a question that has bothered me since I started watching the tv specials and also after some things I have read about the case. According to several things I have read, there was suspicion of repeated sexual abuse. Then when I watched the CBS special about the case, there was discussion that indicated they did not believe there was a pattern of sexual abuse. So which is it? I also believe it was on the CBS special that they discussed small pieces of wood found in the vagina that they believed was from the paint brush! Anyone have any thoughts regarding prior sexual abuse? And if so, who was abusing her?

The CBS special was very puzzling wrt the injuries. We know Kolar believed there was prior abuse (from Burke), but only Werner Spitz (forensic pathologist) and Henry Lee (criminalist) discussed the subject on camera. I'm not sure about Lee's beliefs prior to the doc but according to this link, Spitz was quoted in PMPT (1999) making statements consistent with his 2016 comments on TV.
http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/w/page/11682469/Evidence of Prior Sexual Abuse
The link also states that according to PMPT the FBI thought the sexual assault was staging not done to cover up prior sexual abuse. Jim and Laura, coming from the FBI, may share that view though they did not discuss it on screen. If you check out the CBS discussion threads, there was speculation that there was more about it in the deleted footage. I wouldn't be surprised if they did cut some things - it's sensitive material and there's nothing decisive. Probably not good for the lawsuit they knew was coming. But I wish they had explained their theory about sexual abuse vs staging in more detail since it's a key aspect of the case. Steve Thomas did not think she had been sexually abused, but found the injuries sufficiently troubling that he mentioned the possibility of prior sexual abuse in his book and explained it away as evidence of physical, not sexual, abuse of JB by Patsy.

As you can see at the link (and elsewhere), there were plenty of people besides the panel of 6 doctors who thought there was evidence of prior abuse. Forensic pathologist Cyril Wecht (who wrote a book about the case) is probably the most prominent. It may be worth noting his theory is JDI. Linda Arndt (background in sexual assault/child abuse cases, present at the autopsy and a witness to the injuries) stated there was evidence of prior abuse, said she'd never seen anything like it, and implied on Good Morning America she thought JDI as well. She discussed the "incest dynamic" she observed within the family in her deposition.

My opinion? I lean toward previous abuse based on what I've read and my understanding of her injuries, but what do I know? Clearly there's room for debate. The thing about the "assault was staging only" theory is that it feels wrong to me. I have trouble comprehending how any parent (if a parent did it) could strangle their child even to cover up their or someone else's misdeed. To imagine that in addition to that, a parent violated their own child with a paintbrush before or after strangling her? It's unthinkable, beyond the pale. However, ultimately my feelings are irrelevant. You can never know simply by looking at someone what they are capable of. Most of the things that we know happened in the Ramsey case are beyond reason, what's one more inexplicable detail on top of the rest?

If someone did abuse her, it would have to be someone with regular access to her. John Ramsey would be the obvious suspect, though my gut feeling is that he wasn't responsible. But again, that's just my feeling. My opinion based on my observances of John Ramsey was that his public persona was a complete (and fairly obvious) facade, but I have no idea what exactly he was hiding. I would lean toward Burke because one of the former housekeepers accused him of "playing doctor" with JB which, if true, could explain prior injuries. I'm not sold on it though. To a lesser extent I've also considered Patsy's father, Don (who had an apartment in Boulder though he lived with Nedra in Atlanta; he regularly watched the children) or John's oldest son JAR (who had a room at the home, lived in a dorm nearby, and was the contributor of the semen found on the blanket found with - it has been surmised but not confirmed - Dr. Seuss's "The Seven Lady Godivas" in the suitcase found in the basement). But whatever really happened, I'm afraid we'll never know. I could go on but this post is already too long!
 
Patsy wrote it whilst wearing latex gloves. I doubt if the note was ever put on the stairs - just straight onto the floor - which itself seems strange to me. Why would somebody take a ransom note off the stairs and place it on the floor and not onto the kitchen counter - just a few steps away? It would be a lot easier to read than having to crouch down on all fours, as John stated he had done. Another piece of ridiculousness.

The only reason I assume the note was even on the floor was because the Fernies said they read it through the door in the butlers pantry.

And that also strikes me as extremely strange. If the note was placed on the wooden floor below the spiral staircase (as Patsy stated) - how could the Fernies read it from outside the butler's pantry door? And why not simply open the door instead of trying to read it through the door? And the note would be at an angle, wouldn't it, not even facing them?

I'm not sure we can trust what the Fernies said anymore than we can trust what the R's stated.


Hi Miz A,

John Fernie's claim of reading the note upside down through the door is hard to believe, though I've never come up with a reason for him to lie about it. Be that as it may, it was not the butler's pantry door.

Fernie said he read the note through the patio door by the kitchen on the south side of the house.

24_jonbenet_home.jpg



The butler's pantry is on the north side and looks like this:

5d7404c0e72490377e6bb472734ad61a.jpg



Generally, I would suggest to everyone who has not internalized the floor plans to keep copies of them handy when when referring to specific locations.
 
DrollForeignFaction,
Good catch.

I just assume the R's are lying most of the time. Why would JR still be reading the RN on his knees?

Why would Patsy dial 911 without consulting JR?

Of course we all know Patsy wrote the note and SBTC has specific meaning for her, that she quoted it is a red flag.

The R's just cobbled some narrative together and told the investigators this is how it happened. They knew it could never be fact checked, if they got something wrong they could just blame it on stress?

.

Iirc, JR recently said in an interview (possibly Dr. Phil) that he told PR to call 911 and something about not to worry about what the RN said about not calling the police.


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A question that I would really like to be answered...Do JR & BR sleep good at night? I'm sure man/child does, but I'm not too sure JR does.
Mods please delete if this is inappropriate.
 
A question that I would really like to be answered...Do JR & BR sleep good at night? I'm sure man/child does, but I'm not too sure JR does.
Mods please delete if this is inappropriate.

I think narcissistic/self-centered people sleep just fine. Daddy and man-child really don't care. If they did, the truth would have come out years ago. JMO.
 
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