Questions you'd like answers to...

[Cranberry]

So wait, did he just say he had trouble getting the wrist restraints off because they were so tight her skin was swollen up around them? The same restraint the coroner was able to slip off her hand on the autopsy table? Maybe he mistook the bunched up fabric under the cord for swollen skin but it still sounds weird to me.

here is more on the hands tied:

7 MIKE KANE: I'm not really clear (INAUDIBLE)
8 you said that they were tied tight. But were her
9 hands tied closely together or were they wide
10 apart?
11 JOHN RAMSEY: No, it was like that.
12 MIKE KANE: There were crossed like that.
13 JOHN RAMSEY: I remember, yeah, her hands
14 were close together.
15 MIKE KANE: And you tried to untie one of
16 them? Were you successful?
17 JOHN RAMSEY: Partly. I mean, I sort of
18 started to get them untied, but I guess I was
19 starting to realize that that would do any good.

I believe I read also that JR said JB's hands were tied above her head crossed 'wrist to wrist', like the cord tied the wrists together tight (but the cord wasn't tight on the wrists?)

 

[SerenitySprings]

The second it hit national news and I started hearing the few details that were released at the time, coupled with the very scant footage of BR from the funeral and photos that were released before JB died, I knew BDI. It didn't take the indictments for me to see it. And as more info has come out over the years I have always thought BDI.

I don't think JR was as involved as some here say. I think he was 100% involved in covering it up and protecting PR from implicating herself and in protecting BR. I think JR knew that PR couldn't lose BR too so he did what needed to be done to protect BR and PR and he was instrumental in staging the scene.

I don't think JR is as cold and calculating as everyone makes him out to be. I think he needed to protect his business and financial interests and all the people who worked for him and their families.

JR was the movie buff, not PR, so I think he dictated the RN to PR. He probably advised her to change and conceal her handwriting. He also knew that PR needed a "job" to keep from completely losing her ****.

Pay close attention to PR's body language towards BR after that Christmas. It is very different from what it was.

I don't think JR was setting PR up. I think he truly believed he was doing what was best. He was wrong and misguided but I believe he thought his motivation was pure.

He probably coached PR or even had one of the lawyers do it, but you have to remember that these people were fundamental evangelical Christians who believed that the man was God-ordained to lead the family. PR was used to following his lead.

As far as if BDI on purpose, I'm torn. I'm not certain that he understood exactly what he was doing and just how permanent it was. One of my son's fantasies was to "watch the light of life leave a close family member's eyes." When he said that to me he was about 4 years older than BR was when JB died so I'm not sure if BR would have been able to put it in such plain language. But when my son was BR's age when JB died, he was experimenting with death on animals.

Have you ever listened to the Jake Evans 911 call? He is the 17-year-old Texas kid who killed his mom and sister to see what it was like and he described to 911 how it was not what he expected. Having lived through raising a narcissistic psychopath, I identified with what Evans was saying. If my son had carried out one of his plans to kill us I wondered if he would have felt the same way? I wonder if BR was as shocked as Evans was at the aftermath of killing a member of the family?

This is all speculation, of course, and I can't prove my theories one way or another. However, I think the relationships in that family were extremely complex and complicated and without someone from the inside telling their story, we will never know for sure exactly what went down.

There have been rumors over the years that PR confided in Linda Arndt on her deathbed so I hope if that's true that LA will share that insight with the world.


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[kanzz]

Thanks for the help, y'all. It's all so strange. I'm still not wrapping my head around it. Maybe that's why it got deposited to the back of my mind. Wait, ok, so maybe that's why he gets it all mixed up as well. I'm thinking and typing at the same time here. If he truly didn't have any involvement in the staging or cover-up prior to PR handing him the RN, maybe it is possible that this is a blur to him. I don't know. If that's my kid, things are going to be distorted for sure. J/S

 

[Miz Adventure]

The second it hit national news and I started hearing the few details that were released at the time, coupled with the very scant footage of BR from the funeral and photos that were released before JB died, I knew BDI. It didn't take the indictments for me to see it. And as more info has come out over the years I have always thought BDI.

I don't think JR was as involved as some here say. I think he was 100% involved in covering it up and protecting PR from implicating herself and in protecting BR. I think JR knew that PR couldn't lose BR too so he did what needed to be done to protect BR and PR and he was instrumental in staging the scene.

I don't think JR is as cold and calculating as everyone makes him out to be. I think he needed to protect his business and financial interests and all the people who worked for him and their families.

JR was the movie buff, not PR, so I think he dictated the RN to PR. He probably advised her to change and conceal her handwriting. He also knew that PR needed a "job" to keep from completely losing her ****.

Pay close attention to PR's body language towards BR after that Christmas. It is very different from what it was.

I don't think JR was setting PR up. I think he truly believed he was doing what was best. He was wrong and misguided but I believe he thought his motivation was pure.

He probably coached PR or even had one of the lawyers do it, but you have to remember that these people were fundamental evangelical Christians who believed that the man was God-ordained to lead the family. PR was used to following his lead.

As far as if BDI on purpose, I'm torn. I'm not certain that he understood exactly what he was doing and just how permanent it was. One of my son's fantasies was to "watch the light of life leave a close family member's eyes." When he said that to me he was about 4 years older than BR was when JB died so I'm not sure if BR would have been able to put it in such plain language. But when my son was BR's age when JB died, he was experimenting with death on animals.

Have you ever listened to the Jake Evans 911 call? He is the 17-year-old Texas kid who killed his mom and sister to see what it was like and he described to 911 how it was not what he expected. Having lived through raising a narcissistic psychopath, I identified with what Evans was saying. If my son had carried out one of his plans to kill us I wondered if he would have felt the same way? I wonder if BR was as shocked as Evans was at the aftermath of killing a member of the family?

This is all speculation, of course, and I can't prove my theories one way or another. However, I think the relationships in that family were extremely complex and complicated and without someone from the inside telling their story, we will never know for sure exactly what went down.

There have been rumors over the years that PR confided in Linda Arndt on her deathbed so I hope if that's true that LA will share that insight with the world.


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It sounds plausible to me but I still think PR wrote the note unaided while JR was busy hiding the body and staging some of the other stuff. By the time he saw the ransom note it was too late to change it. Patsy needed to make that call to 911.

I have to say that if my mother had thought I was experimenting with death on animals she would have disowned me, and rightly so.

BR however was another matter and we'll never know what his attitude to animals was., but if he was capable of strangling his sister then who knows ?

 

[SerenitySprings]

I have to say that if my mother had thought I was experimenting with death on animals she would have disowned me, and rightly so.

BR however was another matter and we'll never know what his attitude to animals was.

I didn't disown my child but that was the final straw for me as far as the hopes and dreams I had for him. I knew at that point that he wasn't just being "a boy" and that he really wasn't like other kids. He had already been in therapy prior to that for other behavioral issues but about age 10 is when the therapy became more about behavior modification rather than what it was before. By the time he was 13, we were all in intensive therapy to get us all through it. I never gave up and never relinquished him to the state and I made sure the DBT and MST were available and happening in-home and elsewhere.

He was getting brain scans and other research was being done and those things would never have happened if I had washed my hands of him. He ended up going to a special school due to his regular school not wanting to risk him coming there anymore and when even the special school couldn't handle him, he dropped out at 17 and got his GED.

My point is, once you realize your child will never be the person you thought they would be, that you *wanted* them to be, you let it go and find new goals. I am blessed in that I could afford to stay home from work and focus completely on managing his life. I was able to put all of my energy into getting him through his time at home with very little fallout aimed at the world. He never killed anyone, didn't rape anyone, didn't seriously hurt anyone. But not all families can do that and not all families only have the one child.

It was awful. Every second of every day was horrible. But I kept him from doing to anyone else what he did to us. I also made sure his juvenile court records would not be sealed so anyone in the future would have access to them if necessary. I know what he's capable of. I tried to protect as many people as I could. I even tried to protect him while still allowing him to face the consequences of all of his actions. It was a constant exhausting balancing act.

But I was also extremely rooted in reality and I'm not sure PR ever was. I think that's part of what the pageants for herself and with JB were about. Also, I don't keep family secrets and I think the R's do.



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[buggiegirl]

Wow, thanks for that questfortrue! I never considered JR's odd comments that morning could be distancing before, nor was I aware of the inconsistencies of their statements about the purpose of the note. I'll have to pick up Mark McClish's book, I started to really research this case after reading his analysis of the ransom note and first CNN interview on his site. John and Patsy are fascinating because they subtly give themselves away any time they open their mouths but refuse to do the smart thing and shut up. To John's credit it's usually Patsy - "I don't know if it's a he or a she", "there are two people who know, the killer and someone the killer confided in", come on Patsy! But John does his fair share if revealing, as your post points out.

Yet another thing that is bizarre if you think IDI. Why do they both refer to the killer as one person when the note says it's a faction of people?? I mean, to me a faction isn't even like 2 to 3 people, it's a group! No matter who killed JBR, I think PR and JR knew exactly who it was (Burke, them, or whoever else though I don't believe it was anyone else). None of their actions say "we have no idea who did this."

 

[buggiegirl]

I really struggle with John only finding out the real story as the morning progresses. It would explain some stupidity with setting the scene up but I also cannot see Patsy doing all that herself. It is hard to explain John giving the notepad to detectives but I'm sure the stress of the situation has a lot to explain for these decisions.

Maybe there is some stupid inane answer like they had multiple note pads and he thought he disposed of the ransom note pad and gave them a fake, but he accidentally threw away the wrong one? Maybe two were on the counter and after writing the note Patsy put that one back in the drawer, then when John went to toss the note pad, he tossed the one that was still out and gave the cops the one from the drawer? Anything's possible.

 

[buggiegirl]

But I was also extremely rooted in reality and I'm not sure PR ever was.
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Also, if the Ramseys were dealing with something similar with Burke, they were doing it after John's older daughter had already died in a car accident, and Patsy had stage 4 cancer. So they were already a family under immense stress and dealing with a lot of sadness. It's easy to see why they could have ignored or denied things to that point.

 

[Miz Adventure]

According to JR he voluntarily handed the officer the (incriminating) notepad.

However, I like my theory better. While they were both in the kitchen, Officer Whitson, asked JR for samples of both his and Patsy's writing. JR went out to the hall and picked up a pad that showed both his and Patsy's writings and went back into the kitchen and handed it to Whitson. However, Whitson had already noticed the pad with Patsy's scribblings on it, lying on the counter (or wherever it was) and had already picked it up. He bagged both notepads.

Is it set in stone that JR voluntarily handed Whitson the notepad which the ransom note had been written on - or is there room for manoeuvre?

 

[RL2]

I thought JR said he was flying to atlanta for either an important meeting or important business, but not "business meeting"....

which makes me wonder if there was a certain someone's psychiatrist in Atlanta with whom JR desperately needed to meet regarding what all had just gone down at his home in Boulder???

 

[AndHence]

The thing I keep coming back to is that roll of undeveloped film that was on John's camera. LE discovered some throwaway photos John took on Christmas morning to finish off the roll and one of the photos was of the back staircase and it showed the pad that the ransom note was written on. Police would photograph the same area the next day and would later question both John and Patsy about the photo. Was the pad placed in an unconventional way in both photos, suggesting that an intruder wouldn't have placed the pad back in the same area in the same manner? John tells police that the photo depicts what is 'probably' the ransom note pad. Patsy, on the other hand, states that there were dozens of pads just like it around the house and refuses to state that it's the same pad. Clearly investigators saw something notable here but we'll never know what.

 

[icedtea4me]

*snip*JR was the movie buff, not PR, so I think he dictated the RN to PR.*snip*

John: "Okay. Here's the next line. The two gentlemen watching over you daughter do particularly like you so I advise you not to provoke them."

[Patsy writes the line John dictated.]

John: "Oh, crap. That should be The two gentlemen watching over your daughter do not particularly like you so I advise you not to provoke them."

 

[SerenitySprings]

Also, if the Ramseys were dealing with something similar with Burke, they were doing it after John's older daughter had already died in a car accident, and Patsy had stage 4 cancer. So they were already a family under immense stress and dealing with a lot of sadness. It's easy to see why they could have ignored or denied things to that point.

So true. In my house, my husband and I stopped watching suspenseful or dramatic movies, we stopped listening to sad music and going to concerts, we didn't go to plays or read books. If we watched tv we avoided the news, dramas, or anything stressful. And we didn't have cancer and the recent death of a child hanging over us.

We were only concerned about surviving. Making sure our pets were safe and locked in with us in our bedroom at night. We had contingency plans for escaping if he caught the house on fire or if he had his Sons of Silence buddies here to kill us. 3/4s of the time I was awake to make sure he didn't harm us or himself. I slept 3-4 hours a day and not all at once.

We couldn't visit family or have guests over. We couldn't go to friend's houses or out to birthday parties and whatever. We couldn't leave him home alone and we couldn't risk him stealing from or otherwise hurting the people in our lives.

We did go to one wedding out of state and we were expected to stay with family so we arranged with them beforehand to take our safe and everyone in the house had to lock up their keys, wallets, prescription and over-the-counter drugs in it. We ended up leaving early because he managed to get access to a computer and sent out messages to other SoS members in the area.

Our families knew everything, even if they didn't quite believe us until
They experienced it themselves, but we had nothing to lose by them knowing. If we had been heads of a billion dollar company, I can't imagine how much harder it would have been to keep everything private because we didn't have to worry about a business that was the livelihood for hundreds or thousands of people.

We know JR traveled a lot for work, every week in fact. So he might not have had a complete picture of what BR might be capable of, or he might have even planned trips and business deals that way so he didn't have to face the reality of it. Maybe that's why PR took JB to pageants almost every weekend but lied and said it was only a few times a year. BR was with them sometimes but not always and not even usually.

My experience makes it almost impossible for me to think JR and PR were involved in anything other than the staging and coverup and I completely understand that BR did the rest.

But confirmation bias is real and while I might offer a somewhat unique perspective on handling anti-social personality traits in one's child, I may also just be seeing patterns of behavior that don't actually exist. Maybe JR was a child molester. Maybe PR was one of those Munchausen people. Maybe BR really was asleep the whole time. Hell, maybe an IDI and I'm too blinded by my own experiences to see it clearly. Either way, something was going on in that house behind closed doors and we may never know exactly what but I hope and pray that someone is brought to justice on behalf of that dead little girl who did NOT deserve to go out like that.


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[SerenitySprings]

John: "Okay. Here's the next line. The two gentlemen watching over you daughter do particularly like you so I advise you not to provoke them."

[Patsy writes the line John dictated.]

John: "Oh, crap. That should be The two gentlemen watching over your daughter do not particularly like you so I advise you not to provoke them."

I'm not exactly sure what you mean. Maybe "dictated" was not precise enough. (I am often guilty of not using precise enough language.)

Maybe PR said something like, "OMG why do we do? How do we explain all this?"

JR: Don't worry, I've got it figured out. The body is hidden away somewhere they'll have a really hard time finding. I've staged it away from where it actually happened so the crime scene they'll be investigating isn't where the incident occurred.

PR: No! We need more! You have to protect BR! I can't lose him too!

JR: I've already thought of that too. Stop freaking out. Here, write a ransom note.

PR: What? I can't write a RN! Are you kidding me? No!

JR: Just wrote why I say! "Dear Mr. and Mrs. Ramsey..."

PR: No! They know I don't have money! It should be addressed to you!

JR: Right, ok. Start over. "Dear Mr. Ramsey, we have your daughter... Don't try to grow a brain...

End scene.

So PR is super dramatic but her precious baby just died. She's hysterical and JR knows she needs a job to get her focused so he assigns her tasks, just like LA assigned tasks to JR and FW to keep them busy. She pours all of herself into writing that ridiculous RN with JR offering advice.

Oh and at some point JR tells PR to stay in that room and not to leave it. She is to sit on that couch and cry and be crazy and he'll handle the "crime scene" and also make sure BR is out of her sight and not anywhere the cops will be.

MOO


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[Cranberry]

The thing I keep coming back to is that roll of undeveloped film that was on John's camera. LE discovered some throwaway photos John took on Christmas morning to finish off the roll and one of the photos was of the back staircase and it showed the pad that the ransom note was written on. Police would photograph the same area the next day and would later question both John and Patsy about the photo. Was the pad placed in an unconventional way in both photos, suggesting that an intruder wouldn't have placed the pad back in the same area in the same manner? John tells police that the photo depicts what is 'probably' the ransom note pad. Patsy, on the other hand, states that there were dozens of pads just like it around the house and refuses to state that it's the same pad. Clearly investigators saw something notable here but we'll never know what.

Hi AndHence, here is an exchange about when JR unloaded the camera, (per LE request for photos of the 12/23 party), in the early hours of 12/26, per JR 6/98 interview.

5 LOU SMIT: That's kind of
6 coincidental, isn't it, to have a
7 picture --
8 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, it is.
9 You think this came off my camera or
10 you're not sure?
11 MIKE KANE: I am pretty sure it
12 came off your camera.
13 JOHN RAMSEY: They asked if we had
14 any pictures of the Christmas party and I
15 literally -- well, it's possible, because we
16 had an unusual, an uncompleted roll of film in
17 the camera and I think I clicked off some
18 pictures fairly quickly just to finish up the
19 roll, handed it to the policeman, one of the
20 uniform fellows that was there, and they took it
21 to get developed.
22 LOU SMIT: Okay. So this
23 picture here with the pad --
24 JOHN RAMSEY: Could have
25 been when I was just burning up pictures.
0512
1 LOU SMIT: At the scene?
2 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
3 LOU SMIT: That morning?
4 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
5 LOU SMIT: So it could have been
6 taken just shortly before?
7 JOHN RAMSEY: Right, it's
8 possible. That I think I remember they wanted
9 pictures of the party and I said yeah, we got
10 'em, there was wasn't complete.
11 LOU SMIT: So then that would
12 show the pad in its spot that morning?
13 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
14 LOU SMIT: Prior to you giving it
15 to the police officer?
16 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
17 LOU SMIT: That explains that then.
18 BRYAN MORGAN: If that's what --
19 (MULTIPLE SPEAKERS).
20 BRYAN MORGAN: I think when did you
21 do that?
22 JOHN RAMSEY: Pretty early on.
23 I mean, I think we very early on were concerned
24 about the cleaning lady and the fact that she,
25 you know, asked to borrow money and called Patsy
0513
1 all upset and had a big fight with her sister
2 the day before. I mean this was just kind of
3 like coming out, I didn't know about it, and you
4 know, Officer French was there, we very quickly
5 focused on the cleaning lady. I think they had
6 a wire tap put in place, they got hold of the
7 police in wherever she lives, Lafayette or
8 something like that, and they got involved.
9 So I think they wanted pictures of
10 the party because I think she was -- she was at
11 that 23rd party. Is I think the reason why they
12 wanted that roll of film. As well as they had
13 pictures of JonBenet on it. I don't remember if
14 that was the reason or not, but...
15 LOU SMIT: So then when this
16 photograph was taken you think you clicked
17 some off?
18 JOHN RAMSEY: Uh-hum.
19 LOU SMIT: That's why it
20 shows the pad there and then later you
21 gave the pad to the officer?
22 JOHN RAMSEY: Right.
23 LOU SMIT: Now it's a short time
24 later then that these photographs are taken and
25 trying to figure out why they would have moved
0514
1 the bag?
2 JOHN RAMSEY: Well, there is
3 something else laying there too.
4 LOU SMIT: So that's a
5 question we have to answer.
6 JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, I don't know.
7 There is no reason I would have moved it.
8 LOU SMIT: So that wouldn't
9 have been three days prior that this thing
10 was taken, but it could have just been
11 taken hours prior--
12 JOHN RAMSEY: It could have been
13 that morning. Yeah, it could have been.
14 BRYAN MORGAN: Could I see the
15 photograph? Lou, is there any way to tell where
16 in the sequence of the roll it was taken?
17 LOU SMIT: On the roll of John --
18 I am sure there is. I am sure the negatives
19 would be available.
20 VOICE: (INAUDIBLE).
21 LOU SMIT: That would show what
22 number, that's absolutely true. Now if you
23 remember doing that?
24 JOHN RAMSEY: I do, I think I did
25 it, because I had to finish the roll up to get
0515
1 it out of the camera.
2 LOU SMIT: Makes sense.
3 JOHN RAMSEY: Because it was
4 one of those electric rewinds and all that.
5 MIKE KANE: What kind of camera
6 was it?
7 JOHN RAMSEY: I -- it's a --
8 well, I am stretching if I try and remember. We
9 got a new camera, but I think that was after --
10 after that.
11 VOICE: But it had an auto winder?
12 JOHN RAMSEY: Yes, I am pretty
13 sure it did. Yeah, I am sure it rewound or --
14 it was one of those cartridge (INAUDIBLE).

 

[TeaTime]

Serenity - it really saddens me that every day of life was just horrible for you because of your son's propensity for violence and that you had to exclude yourself from the world in order to manage him. I can not imagine. Can you share with us how he is doing now? Is there any good news for you?

 

[Rott Mom]

Maybe there is some stupid inane answer like they had multiple note pads and he thought he disposed of the ransom note pad and gave them a fake, but he accidentally threw away the wrong one? Maybe two were on the counter and after writing the note Patsy put that one back in the drawer, then when John went to toss the note pad, he tossed the one that was still out and gave the cops the one from the drawer? Anything's possible.

Maybe JR was ignorant to the fact that those note pads would link them to the RN.

 

[andreww]

Maybe JR was ignorant to the fact that those note pads would link them to the RN.

Agreed. At that point I don't think it occurred to John that the note had been written on that pad.


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[RDI]

I agree.

I believe John was more involved. I believe either BDI and/or JDI. I stated long ago that I believe John set up Patsy. Before the BDI came to light (GJ indictments of JR and PR) and a third un-named person obviously Burke alot felt PR all the way. I believe John was JonBenet's abuser all along. Burke hit her with the flashlight and John strangled her implicating Patsy. I think John threw Patsy under the bus. Knowing Patsy's personality and over-the-top -ness John knew Patsy would look like the guilty one. John was the main controller and manipulator imho. And it worked most believed it was/is Patsy. I believe Patsy was in shock and insurmountable grief. I believe John dictated the ransom novel to her to write. John was holding all the cards and pulling Patsy along on puppet strings.

I believe JR also kept Patsy heavily medicated and dictated her script on CNN, too. She certainly seemed guilty, but JR was feeding her all her words, too, imho.

Imho JR is a master at controlling everything and everyone. Patsy seemed to be the one calling all the shots, but I believe she was just a fragile, scared, unhealthy person who thought she needed the security she felt JR gave her.

(I feel JR was even behind Patsy's comment to her parents about not seeing their grandchild even though she was not yet pregnant IF THEY did not give JR money to start his business. She was his puppet all along.) MOO.

I assume you are referring to this video?

[video=youtube;kOfATfILHys]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOfATfILHys[/video]

 

[Miz Adventure]

"Keep your babies close to you"

Yes Patsy. Your babies were close to you and look what happened.