Questions you'd like answers to...

[AlGx]

1. Did John try to perform CPR on JB after he found her? I've heard stories he has?
2. What comments did Patsy say to a friend that freaked her out after JB died?

 

[UKGuy]

In reading through transcripts I am only seeing reference to one size 12 package not several.

Also from seeing these pictures comparing JB to a girl Jenny's size, I stand by my earlier claim that JB would not put them on willingly. JMO.

Link

Ambitioned,
I reckon you are 100% correct. IMO Burke Ramsey put the size-12's on JonBenet. Neither parent would have done that. JonBenet had a drawer full of underwear upstairs, in a homicide staging, underwear is underwear as long as it's the right size.

I think the parents never found JonBenet until they rose the next day, that's why they dumped the nightgown into the wine-cellar. BR had already hidden JonBenet's size-6 underwear away somewhere?

.

 

[Ambitioned]

Ambitioned,
I reckon you are 100% correct. IMO Burke Ramsey put the size-12's on JonBenet. Neither parent would have done that. JonBenet had a drawer full of underwear upstairs, in a homicide staging, underwear is underwear as long as it's the right size.

I think the parents never found JonBenet until they rose the next day, that's why they dumped the nightgown into the wine-cellar. BR had already hidden JonBenet's size-6 underwear away somewhere?

.

Yup, could even be in the golf bag. Why else would John ask for it in the dead of winter?

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

1. Did John try to perform CPR on JB after he found her? I've heard stories he has?
2. What comments did Patsy say to a friend that freaked her out after JB died?

Only if you read any other the Ramsey's books. According to Fleet White John "found" her as soon as he entered the door and brought her out stiff as a board.



The Denver Post remarks on

"Perfect Murder, Perfect Town," Lawrence Schiller,

On Dec. 27, Pam Griffin found a telephone message from Patsy's sister Polly. "Patsy needs you right now." Griffin was the seamstress who made JonBenét's pageant costumes and was Patsy's confidante about beauty pageants. At the Boulder home of John and Barbara Fernie, friends of the Ramseys', Pam, a former registered nurse, touched Patsy's skin and realized she was dehydrated. She brought Patsy some water and made her drink it. She then told her to lie down. Hours later, Patsy finally took Pam's advice.
Patsy then touched Pam's face. "Couldn't you fix this for me?" she asked. Pam thought she was delirious. It was as if Patsy were asking her to fix a ripped seam. "Patsy said something like, "We didn't mean for that to happen'," Pam would say later. Pam couldn't say why, but she remembered feeling as if Patsy knew who killed JonBenét but was afraid to say.

 

[UKGuy]

Yup, could even be in the golf bag. Why else would John ask for it in the dead of winter?

Ambitioned,
Yes possibly in the golf bag or in stuff PR's sister took out of the house, BR might have simply stuffed them into his pockets and dumped them outside of the house, once he left that morning?

 

[TeaTime]

1. Did John try to perform CPR on JB after he found her? I've heard stories he has?
2. What comments did Patsy say to a friend that freaked her out after JB died?

No. He did not.

She said 'we didn't mean for this to happen' to her friend during a conversation on the night after the child was found. She also said 'can't you fix this for me?' and the friend said it was like PR was asking someone to sew on a button or something.

When PW said '' I know what's going on here" PR's response was 'how can you know what's going on when I am the mother and I don't know?'.

 

[TeaTime]

Yup, could even be in the golf bag. Why else would John ask for it in the dead of winter?

To stay with the facts, JR asked about the golf bag because, as he explained, he had offered them to a friend for the friend's upcoming golfing vacation and that is why he was heard asking said friend "did you get the clubs?" Sounds reasonable to me.

 

[Jolamom]

To stay with the facts, JR asked about the golf bag because, as he explained, he had offered them to a friend for the friend's upcoming golfing vacation and that is why he was heard asking said friend "did you get the clubs?" Sounds reasonable to me.

Certainly sounds a bit awkward to be asking a man who has just had his daughter found murdered in his basement to worry about retrieving golf clubs out of a basement that is considered part of a crime scene! I don't think it sounds reasonable, nor do I think you can take any stock in any explaination the Ramseys offer up. They have lied over and over again when ever it suited them and their story of the day. Until we know exactly what happened, we can not assume anything they say is the truth without supporting evidence. Period.

 

[TeaTime]

Certainly sounds a bit awkward to be asking a man who has just had his daughter found murdered in his basement to worry about retrieving golf clubs out of a basement that is considered part of a crime scene! I don't think it sounds reasonable, nor do I think you can take any stock in any explaination the Ramseys offer up. They have lied over and over again when ever it suited them and their story of the day. Until we know exactly what happened, we can not assume anything they say is the truth without supporting evidence. Period.

Well, no one asked JR abut the clubs; that isn't the genesis of the golf club story. JR asked his friend if he (the friend) had retrieved the clubs for his (the friend's) vacation. The conversation, "hey, did you get the clubs from the basement yet?" or "were you able to get the clubs?" was overheard and much had been made of it, but what I stated is the explanation given and sorry, it just doesn't ring any alarms for me.

 

[questfortrue]

Certainly sounds a bit awkward to be asking a man who has just had his daughter found murdered in his basement to worry about retrieving golf clubs out of a basement that is considered part of a crime scene! I don't think it sounds reasonable, nor do I think you can take any stock in any explaination the Ramseys offer up. They have lied over and over again when ever it suited them and their story of the day. Until we know exactly what happened, we can not assume anything they say is the truth without supporting evidence. Period.

The question was mentioned in IRMI, and the exact quote was: “Patsy awoke while he was gone and staggered from the bedroom to a couch, barely able to speak, and told her sisters she needed some things from Fifteenth Street. John was overheard to ask someone quietly, “Did you get my golf bag?” When I learned of that statement, it seemed totally out of order. There had been two golf bags in the house, but he had not specified which one he wanted. Neither bag was collected by police.”

For ST the timing of this request raised a flag. It occurred on either Thursday or Friday evening after the homicide.

But in questioning in the 1998 interview, Kane asks this:
20 MIKE KANE: Do you remember the day
21 after this happened, being on the phone talking
22 to someone about getting your golf clubs?
23 JOHN RAMSEY: No. Absolutely not.

So there you have it, Jolamom. Take your pick – either a flat-out denial or, alternatively, a different explanation for asking about golf clubs.:juggle:

 

[Userid]

Again, you are correct in what you say but that is not the story Patsy gave. Maybe she should have thought her way through it before she claimed she gave the package to JonBenèt and the remaining panties from the package should be located in her draw. Which they were not. If the Ramsey's then wanted to continue with the intruder theory, they should not have magically turned up with the package that contained the remaining Bloomies years later. It did not fit their story and, for me, it became a huge red flag.

They didn't "magically turn up with the package." The package was (supposedly; do we even know for certain? Honest question) found much later and the R's never willingly turned over the package to anyone in law enforcement.

Look at it this way: the package was in their possession regardless. Why? Obviously, they wanted to smuggle it out of the house. Whether you think it was BR or it was PR/JR -- in any scenario, that package was important enough for the R's to smuggle out of the house at the time of her death. You can ask until your face turns blue why, then, PR gave the story she did about the package -- but nevertheless, you can't deny this fact: they were smuggled out of the house all the same.

 

[Userid]

Userid,
Not unless Patsy's explanation regarding the size-12's is false? Millionaire relative purchasing underwear as a Christmas gift, when we know how showy Patsy was, does not really add up. JonBenet was given a gold necklace, not bad for six-year old, but the niece only gets Day Of The Week underwear, mmm.

Then as you say, it was never sent, so Jenny is twice insulted, maybe three, as Patsy says lets not bother with Jenny, you can have them JonBenet?

.
.

That's fine if you believe that, but I'd disagree; that doesn't really put up any red flags for me. If it's a niece you rarely ever see, who lives in another state, I can see a person buying a modest gift; especially if you're sending it via mail. You're not going to buy an expensive gift for someone you barely see and risk it getting lost/stolen in the mail.

One thing I wonder about the panties also: we've all been trying to figure out why the R's took the package, and why PR wouldn't have had a more "iron-clad" story for them in her police interviews. Something that's crossed my mind recently: I wonder if the original intent for the package was to plant it and frame one of the housekeepers. Consider this: duct tape and bindings that were a match to those found on JBR were found in LHP's home. Perhaps the package was also meant to be in the mix, but got lost in the shuffle momentarily. Also, perhaps something spooked the R's in planting the package because they thought/realized the package could be traced back to PR buying them (found receipt?), so PR had no choice but to own up to buying them in her police interview. Just speculating.

 

[UKGuy]

That's fine if you believe that, but I'd disagree; that doesn't really put up any red flags for me. If it's a niece you rarely ever see, who lives in another state, I can see a person buying a modest gift; especially if you're sending it via mail. You're not going to buy an expensive gift for someone you barely see and risk it getting lost/stolen in the mail.

One thing I wonder about the panties also: we've all been trying to figure out why the R's took the package, and why PR wouldn't have had a more "iron-clad" story for them in her police interviews. Something that's crossed my mind recently: I wonder if the original intent for the package was to plant it and frame one of the housekeepers. Consider this: duct tape and bindings that were a match to those found on JBR were found in LHP's home. Perhaps the package was also meant to be in the mix, but got lost in the shuffle momentarily. Also, perhaps something spooked the R's in planting the package because they thought/realized the package could be traced back to PR buying them (found receipt?), so PR had no choice but to own up to buying them in her police interview. Just speculating.

Userid,
BBM: The size-12's are an example of how the evidence can conflict with a theory, say PDI. Because as you suggest why PR wouldn't have had a more "iron-clad" story for them in her police interviews, so people invent Just So stories to explain their disappearance.

It's safe to assume Patsy never redressed JonBenet in the size-12's because as you suggest she would have had a cover story prepared to backup her version of events.

That leaves JR or BR.

JonBenet is also wearing Burke Ramsey's long johns, which Patsy says she redressed JonBenet in, because she could not find her pink pajama bottoms.

Likely missing is:

1. 6 pairs of size-12's

2. Pink pajama bottoms

3. Size-6 underwear.

Patsy claims she opened the Partially Opened gifts, but Kolar says Burke admiitted doing this on Christmas Day afternoon.

So Patsy is called out on the Gifts and the size-12's, how so? Probably because she is covering for Burke Ramsey, who likely removed the size-12's and the size-6 pair.

A guilty parent would not have removed the remaining size-12's or dressed JonBenet in the long johns since the latter directly implicates Burke, much better to find a dressing gown?

Patsy's story about the size-12's falls down because she never knew Burke had removed the size-12's. Had it been JR who redressed JonBenet in the size-12's as a form of staging, to protect Burke, he would be at liberty to inform Patsy thus. Hey you want to know this, in case they ask you X, Y, or Z?

.

 

[icedtea4me]

Userid,
Not unless Patsy's explanation regarding the size-12's is false? Millionaire relative purchasing underwear as a Christmas gift, when we know how showy Patsy was, does not really add up. JonBenet was given a gold necklace, not bad for six-year old, but the niece only gets Day Of The Week underwear, mmm.

Then as you say, it was never sent, so Jenny is twice insulted, maybe three, as Patsy says lets not bother with Jenny, you can have them JonBenet?

.
.

Let's see who is in this picture: John, John Andrew, Burke, Patsy, JonBenet, Melinda, Paulette, Paulette's son (born Aug/Sept 1993), Pam, Nedra, and Don. Where is Paulette's daughter Jenny? (I would think that Paulette's husband Grant would have been the one taking the picture.)

 

[usda_select]

This will sound strange and I guess I could go to Wikipedia for it but does anyone have the "official version" of what happened to JBR according to the Boulder Colorado Police Department? Who are the "official" suspects if they still have some according to the Boulder CO Police Department? Is the investigation still active?

Is there any sort of on-line simulation of the events?

 

[BBB167893]

This will sound strange and I guess I could go to Wikipedia for it but does anyone have the "official version" of what happened to JBR according to the Boulder Colorado Police Department? Who are the "official" suspects if they still have some according to the Boulder CO Police Department? Is the investigation still active?

Is there any sort of on-line simulation of the events?

The only one of those I know for sure is that, officially, the case is still active.

 

[Userid]

Userid,
BBM: The size-12's are an example of how the evidence can conflict with a theory, say PDI. Because as you suggest why PR wouldn't have had a more "iron-clad" story for them in her police interviews, so people invent Just So stories to explain their disappearance.

.

Snipped to address the bolded: but every theory does this, including BDI too.

I think you may have missed my point: I'm not necessarily saying that PD wouldn't have dressed JBR in the bloomies; I'm saying that, she (or JR) very well could have with the intent of further staging the murder. They could have had "other plans" or original plans that they enacted, but that needed to be changed afterward.

I guess where we disagree is that, you see PR's story to police about the panties as some sort of proof that she definitively couldn't have dressed JBR in them. I don't share that belief, but that's fine. I don't share it because again, there are many reasons why she wouldn't have outright lied about ever purchasing/owning them, which I've already gone over in this thread.

 

[Disgusted]

Well, I've lost every shred of confidence in the CBS documentary.

Clemente and Laura Richards are on their podcast claiming the west memphis 3 child murderers are innocent, which is outlandish. They're spewing the hollywood lies pretty much verbatim, claiming jessie miskelly has an airtight alibi which has been thoroughly debunked.

Also referencing his "confession" with quotes around it, saying the police told him everything to say. So far no mention of the other 6 or so confessions, including after conviction.

As much as I am RDI and as much as I despise the Rs, I now hope Burke bankrupts Clemente and Richards for eternity.

I'll never look at the CBS docu or any of those involved with it the same way again.

 

[Userid]

Well, I've lost every shred of confidence in the CBS documentary.

Clemente and Laura Richards are on their podcast claiming the west memphis 3 child murderers are innocent, which is outlandish. They're spewing the hollywood lies pretty much verbatim, claiming jessie miskelly has an airtight alibi which has been thoroughly debunked.

Also referencing his "confession" with quotes around it, saying the police told him everything to say. So far no mention of the other 6 or so confessions, including after conviction.

As much as I am RDI and as much as I despise the Rs, I now hope Burke bankrupts Clemente and Richards for eternity.

I'll never look at the CBS docu or any of those involved with it the same way again.

I've been listening to this too. Honestly, I wasn't surprised. Ironically, it seems like the other host (not Clemente or Richards, but the other lady) seems to have the best handle on the case, even though she has no experience working as an FBI agent. If you go to the RCP facebook page, it's her that runs it; and it seems like she disagrees with Clemente and Richards.

Anyways, I'll say this: I wouldn't necessarily believe that even if they were wrong about one case, that they'd be wrong about the other. At least with the JBR case, they seem to have studied the evidence over a prolonged period of time -- like months, correct? -- compared to the WM3, where they obviously didn't do their homework as thoroughly. They cover many cases on their podcast, and the WM3 is just another case to cover; but the JBR case, perhaps there was more of an effort to thoroughly parse through all the evidence. I don't know, and anyways, I'm R/PDI -- but I'm just throwing that out there.

And lastly, I thought the first two episodes were horrible, but the 3rd episode is actually not bad, in case you don't want to give up on it just yet. If you do, I don't blame you.

 

[Ambitioned]

I'll never look at the CBS docu or any of those involved with it the same way again.

Well sometimes people miss the mark on one case and hit the targets on another. Take Lou Smit for example. He's credited with solving the Heather Dawn Church case. But with JB's case he met the R's and decided they couldn't be guilty. After that he tried to make the evidence fit with his bias.