Ramsey house for sale again

[CorallaroC]

I was just curious, since the house was remodeled going downstairs in the basement there is an iron scroll at the bottom, so would that scroll be at what was once the bathroom when the Ramseys lived there? I have read that the wine cellar was blocked off but I am just trying to get a better image of the scroll(if im not mistaken it says cellar underneath) and basement

Elannia, what type of iron scroll are you talking about?

 

[elannia]

Elannia, what type of iron scroll are you talking about?

It is a black scroll at the bottom of the basement stairs, if you'll look up the house how it looks now you will see it. I was just trying to place where it was. DeeDee had posted about it but I was confused by it

 

[KayCherry]

My first post, etc. very new to site. I do love hearing everything even single person posts. I wanted to say I am from NJ and i remember "feeling" omg definite intruder, however; after voraciously reading most i could, i feel it was an inside job, i think of the timing, Christmas night... I don't feel intruders are lurking on a solemn beautiful festive holiday to strike in an affluent neighborhood. It is so sad to me, as I agree with another post, JB seems sad in pics I have viewed, her eyes are very solemn. Hope to get better at the website. Thank you all!

 

[OliviaG1996]

My first post, etc. very new to site. I do love hearing everything even single person posts. I wanted to say I am from NJ and i remember "feeling" omg definite intruder, however; after voraciously reading most i could, i feel it was an inside job, i think of the timing, Christmas night... I don't feel intruders are lurking on a solemn beautiful festive holiday to strike in an affluent neighborhood. It is so sad to me, as I agree with another post, JB seems sad in pics I have viewed, her eyes are very solemn. Hope to get better at the website. Thank you all!

Welcome to Websleuths, KayCherry!

I agree with your sentiments regarding the timing of the "intruder"'s visit to the Rs. Very risky. Add to that the fact that the ransom note was written with a pad and paper from the home, and the intruder theory seems more unlikely. This site has a lot of information to help you come up with your theory of what you think happened to JBR.

Happy sleuthing! :detective:

 

[Anti-K]

My first post, etc. very new to site. I do love hearing everything even single person posts. I wanted to say I am from NJ and i remember "feeling" omg definite intruder, however; after voraciously reading most i could, i feel it was an inside job, i think of the timing, Christmas night... I don't feel intruders are lurking on a solemn beautiful festive holiday to strike in an affluent neighborhood. It is so sad to me, as I agree with another post, JB seems sad in pics I have viewed, her eyes are very solemn. Hope to get better at the website. Thank you all!

Welcome, KayCherry.
Of course, an intruder could have intentionally chosen Christmas for any one of a million unknown reasons; for example, shock value or because people (police included) are not prepared for something like this at that time of year, or maybe it had something to do with his own ability to get away from wherever (home, etc) without being missed, or maybe he just really really hates Christmas, or....
...

AK

 

[UKGuy]

Welcome, KayCherry.
Of course, an intruder could have intentionally chosen Christmas for any one of a million unknown reasons; for example, shock value or because people (police included) are not prepared for something like this at that time of year, or maybe it had something to do with his own ability to get away from wherever (home, etc) without being missed, or maybe he just really really hates Christmas, or....
...

AK

Anti-K,
Or maybe there was no intruder. Could it have been a family member? How would an intruder known about the wine-cellar?

.

 

[Anti-K]

Anti-K,
Or maybe there was no intruder. Could it have been a family member? How would an intruder known about the wine-cellar?

.

AK
If IDI, the killer could have simply stumbled upon the room without knowing anything about it in advance. After all, it was not a hidden room. All he had to do was look straight in front of him once he got to the bottom of the stairs. And, he did choose to assault/murder his victim outside of the door to the WC. He might not have known what was behind that door until the moment he opened it, and he might not have opened it until after the assault/murder.
...

AK

 

[andreww]

AK
If IDI, the killer could have simply stumbled upon the room without knowing anything about it in advance. After all, it was not a hidden room. All he had to do was look straight in front of him once he got to the bottom of the stairs. And, he did choose to assault/murder his victim outside of the door to the WC. He might not have known what was behind that door until the moment he opened it, and he might not have opened it until after the assault/murder.
...

AK

How did he know how to open it? Officer French couldn't figure it out. And why would he lock it again when he left?


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[BOESP]

I don't think Officer French was confused about how to open the wine cellar door. Iirc, he stated (or words to this effect), that he was looking for an exit point the kidnapper could have used. When he saw the latch above the wine cellar door in the latched position he knew an Intruder couldn't have exited in that direction.

 

[SweetT]

The flash light being left behind isnt a significant clue to say that this was not an intruder. I mean if theyre going to walk out of the house they probably didnt need the flash light any longer looks like the upstairs has many windows for moon light etc to come through enough to see at night. What has had me convinced for yrs that this was an inside job was that long ransom note....but even that can be explained away somewhat. If the Intruder got to the home while the Ramseys were away or gone for the evening etc they would have had plenty of time to scope out the house and write the ransom note. So it was a planned abduction (Possibly) Something went wrong and the plans changed..now it was a murder but they left the original ransom note anyway? Since the ransom note seemed pretty personal, if the Ramseys did not write it, it would appear to have been written from at least an acquaintance of theirs or someone they knew.
In the sale pictures I thought the house looked pretty nice.
I'd love to do a ghost hunt there. I also used to think that child ghosts didnt exist but I've changed my mind. I think sometimes a traumatic event like murder keeps them around but not sure about that. I just know that childrens EVP's have been caught on audio so anything is possible IMO.

 

[Anti-K]

How did he know how to open it? Officer French couldn't figure it out. And why would he lock it again when he left?


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(how did White figure it out?) BOESP answered your question about French.

Why, if IDI, would the killer latch the wc door behind him? If we ever identify him, then we can ask him. Only he knows. Seriously.

However, to speculate: it is possible that the latch simply fell down on its own. IIRC, Mr Ramsey said that he thought that it had to be physically turned (does anyone remember if it was latched when Ramsey opened it to find the body?). If it had to be physically turned, then, if IDI, the killer had to have turned it.

If we use my Theory of Intent ( http://tinyurl.com/qa5mfbh ) as a key, then the answer to why the killer turned the latch would be that it was to minimize the chances that the parents would discover the body.
...

AK

 

[SweetT]

(how did White figure it out?) BOESP answered your question about French.

Why, if IDI, would the killer latch the wc door behind him? If we ever identify him, then we can ask him. Only he knows. Seriously.

However, to speculate: it is possible that the latch simply fell down on its own. IIRC, Mr Ramsey said that he thought that it had to be physically turned (does anyone remember if it was latched when Ramsey opened it to find the body?). If it had to be physically turned, then, if IDI, the killer had to have turned it.

If we use my Theory of Intent ( http://tinyurl.com/qa5mfbh ) as a key, then the answer to why the killer turned the latch would be that it was to minimize the chances that the parents would discover the body.
...

AK

That would make perfect sense, especially if you left a ransom note and were at that point just trying to buy time. Perhaps the Intruder walked straight out the front door locking it behind them. Just saying, I have not decided if this was a Ramsey or an intruder, Just thinking.

 

[andreww]

(how did White figure it out?)

White had been down there before to get wine if I recall correctly. He'd already be aware of the latch.

Why, if IDI, would the killer latch the wc door behind him? If we ever identify him, then we can ask him. Only he knows. Seriously.

If I ever run in to John I'll ask him.

However, to speculate: it is possible that the latch simply fell down on its own. IIRC, Mr Ramsey said that he thought that it had to be physically turned (does anyone remember if it was latched when Ramsey opened it to find the body?). If it had to be physically turned, then, if IDI, the killer had to have turned it.

The latch needed to be physically turned. It was latched when French tried it. It was latched when Fleet went in. As I've never heard Fleet say whether he locked it or not, and John can't remember either way, we have no way of knowing if it was locked when he found the body. Not that it matters anyway, we know the killer locked it. Just like he pulled the chair against the train room door before exiting.

If we use my Theory of Intent ( http://tinyurl.com/qa5mfbh ) as a key, then the answer to why the killer turned the latch would be that it was to minimize the chances that the parents would discover the body.
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AK

I don't really grasp your theory of intent. And why would intruder thing that latching the door would buy them more time? Time for what? Its pretty obvious that the ransom thing wasn't going to happen. He left absolutely no trace of evidence that he was there so he had all the time in the world. In fact 20 years later we're still looking for him aren't we?

 

[andreww]

That would make perfect sense, especially if you left a ransom note and were at that point just trying to buy time. Perhaps the Intruder walked straight out the front door locking it behind them. Just saying, I have not decided if this was a Ramsey or an intruder, Just thinking.

So the intruder had a key to lock the door behind him now? Lets be serious here, there was no viable point of entry or exit in that house. John was very clear to responding officers that he checked all doors and found them locked, and that he even went as far as going out to check the garage door entrance.

 

[SweetT]

So the intruder had a key to lock the door behind him now? Lets be serious here, there was no viable point of entry or exit in that house. John was very clear to responding officers that he checked all doors and found them locked, and that he even went as far as going out to check the garage door entrance.

I dont need a key to lock my front door or my back door or my garage door behind me.

 

[andreww]

I dont need a key to lock my front door or my back door or my garage door behind me.

That's not the case in most houses, and John never mentioned anything about that when he was discussing his checking that the doors were locked.


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[SweetT]

That's not the case in most houses, and John never mentioned anything about that when he was discussing his checking that the doors were locked.


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What exactly was he supposed to say?

 

[SweetT]

Was there only one housekeeper for the Ramsey's when this happened?

 

[Anti-K]

White had been down there before to get wine if I recall correctly. He'd already be aware of the latch.



If I ever run in to John I'll ask him.



The latch needed to be physically turned. It was latched when French tried it. It was latched when Fleet went in. As I've never heard Fleet say whether he locked it or not, and John can't remember either way, we have no way of knowing if it was locked when he found the body. Not that it matters anyway, we know the killer locked it. Just like he pulled the chair against the train room door before exiting.



I don't really grasp your theory of intent. And why would intruder thing that latching the door would buy them more time? Time for what? Its pretty obvious that the ransom thing wasn't going to happen. He left absolutely no trace of evidence that he was there so he had all the time in the world. In fact 20 years later we're still looking for him aren't we?

I’m not sure about the chair being moved. But, I do think it likely, if IDI, that the killer latched the WC door behind him possibly for the reason previously stated – to minimize the chances that the parents would discover the body.

I don’t think “buying time” was a motivation.

It is not true that he left no trace – there is 2 ½ pages of handwriting and linguistic evidence, hair, fibers, DNA, the acts committed upon the victim to consider.

Sadly, I think we’ll be looking for him forever.

BTW, the theory of intent is simply that the killer created a crime scene for investigators to discover.
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AK

 

[Anti-K]

I dont need a key to lock my front door or my back door or my garage door behind me.

IIRC, and this is from one of the interviews, the front door locked automatically when closed. But, I think, if IDI, the killer left via the butler door after placing the ransom note on the stairs.
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AK