RDI Theories & Discussion ONLY!

[chlban]

Could this have been a "mercy killing"? Example, someone (I wont say who) bashed her on the head, parents found out, maybe they knew she was dying or thought she was dead, maybe she was having crazy breathing (sorry, I dont know how to put that) and maybe they did it thinking they were helping her, if they knew she would have died, they couldnt take her to the ER, so they set this plan in motion. DeeDee, the pineapple just sums it up for me as well... cannot believe they denied owning the bowl, did they honestly think people would believe an intruder would bring that in with him(well IDI would), but owning up to saying yes, she had pineapple when we got home would mess up their story about her being asleep. Maybe they did not know she ate the pineapple, she could have helped herself, or had help from someone else. But the pineapple puts her being awake after arriving home. Say they were innocent, when they woke and thought she really was kidnapped, would they have noticed the pineapple out on the table while searching for her, If so they would have brought it to attention, I would hope(example: there is a bowl of pineapple out on the table, we did not leave that there, it wasnt there after we got home from the party, etc) But instead they try to deny even owning the bowl.

I don't know that I would call if a mercy killing, but if Burke did hit her, it is quite possible, IMO, that the parents thought she was beyond help and acted to protect their other child.

I have told this story before, but perhaps it bears repeating. Last year I witnessed a teenage girl hit in the head by a flying object (shot put, I believe is the term). She immediately went into convulsions and I thought for sure she was dying. She then lost consciousness. Again, I thought she was dying.

She stayed overnight in the hospital for observation and was home the next day feeling fine and with no memory of the incident.

Since the head blow to JonBenet was determined to be much more severe, in that it would have caused death, I have no trouble imagining that the parents may have thought she was beyond hope.

 

[madeleine]

okay....wanted to start a poll but dunno what's happening when you try to submit a new thread so I will post this question here...I wanted to know what you guys think about the scream,was it real or not?cause if it was this means poor JB saw it coming....it means she felt fear,she felt the threat,no?which means this wasn't just an accident.

 

[questfortrue]

okay....wanted to start a poll but dunno what's happening when you try to submit a new thread so I will post this question here...I wanted to know what you guys think about the scream,was it real or not?cause if it was this means poor JB saw it coming....it means she felt fear,she felt the threat,no?which means this wasn't just an accident.

About the scream - some background info may be important to consider. A number of incidences of what appears to be intimidation of witnesses occurred in Boulder. From memory here are a few:

• Blood or red paint thrown on Detective LA’s door and a warning she received from then Chief Koby to be careful going home, that someone might wish to harm her.
• There was also a recantation from KB, the purported brief mistress of JR, who claimed she received a phone call with someone saying she should be careful or she’d end up like JonBenet.
• FW said in the recent Prendergast piece the following: Over the next couple of days, as the JonBenét case began to make headlines, Fleet heard wild speculations on talk radio about John Ramsey's son from a previous marriage. He called the police, demanding a press release stating what the cops and insiders knew to be true: that the young man wasn't even in Boulder when the crime occurred. He says he received an angry call from one of John's attorneys, Bryan Morgan, warning him not to interfere.

I don’t know if Stanton was spooked by rumors in Boulder about this case or not. From IRMI ST wrote this: But we all agreed that Melody Stanton, the neighbor who claimed to have heard a scream, “obviously that of a child,” on Christmas night, could have done so. I wanted to go over and talk to her right then and dig deeper into her story, but Deputy DA DeMuth refused, putting a blockade between police and Melody Stanton. He said he planned to “prep her” before trial . DeMuth didn’t explain his reasons to mere police officers and detectives. I could not fathom why a prosecutor would intentionally stop us from talking to her. Such a thing had never happened before in any investigation I was involved in, but with a wave of his hand— poof!—DeMuth sealed off an important avenue of investigation from the investigators.

If it was just one incidence of intimidation or extreme control over witnesses, I’d discount it. But from the several stories we’ve read, some level of fear had been spread by either hired guns (investigators/R attorneys) or by disturbed R supporters.

The reports about all of this led me to believe that there was a scream heard by Stanton. She had described it as a child’s blood-curdling scream which lasted 4/5 seconds. From pain of the molestation or from seeing someone about to harm her is the question. If we consider BR the perpetrator of the head strike, it looks to be a deliberate action, though likely not meant to kill her. This wasn't an accidental strike, imo, and JB passed into unconsciousness within a few seconds but not before recognizing that a person she had loved and trusted was going to make sure she was silenced. JMHO

 

[elannia]

I don't know that I would call if a mercy killing, but if Burke did hit her, it is quite possible, IMO, that the parents thought she was beyond help and acted to protect their other child.

I have told this story before, but perhaps it bears repeating. Last year I witnessed a teenage girl hit in the head by a flying object (shot put, I believe is the term). She immediately went into convulsions and I thought for sure she was dying. She then lost consciousness. Again, I thought she was dying.

She stayed overnight in the hospital for observation and was home the next day feeling fine and with no memory of the incident.

Since the head blow to JonBenet was determined to be much more severe, in that it would have caused death, I have no trouble imagining that the parents may have thought she was beyond hope.

I should've used a better term for "mercy killing". I truly believe that the R's loved both of their children, and would have done anything for them. But that said, there was alot going on in that household with the sexual abuse, feces on things, PR not knowing when JB last took a bath, etc. I think PR had too much on her plate at once, and didnt watch the children like she should have. And B and JB were caught messing under the covers, surely PR knew this. The page in the dictionary was turned to incest, was it she who was looking at that? so if it was BR abusing JB maybe she knew. They had two big trips planned and this wasnt premeditated, something just set someone off and it all went from there. But imo, it was BR who delivered that head blow, which would have been fatal, and the parents finished her off(maybe to put her out of her suffering, idk maybe she was convulsing, etc) But if they would have took her to the ER they would have found out she had been sexually abused(more than once) and they couldn't have done that. So instead of trying to save JB(who would have died from the head bash, they covered and saved someone else.

 

[elannia]

About the scream - some background info may be important to consider. A number of incidences of what appears to be intimidation of witnesses occurred in Boulder. From memory here are a few:

• Blood or red paint thrown on Detective LA’s door and a warning she received from then Chief Koby to be careful going home, that someone might wish to harm her.
• There was also a recantation from KB, the purported brief mistress of JR, who claimed she received a phone call with someone saying she should be careful or she’d end up like JonBenet.
• FW said in the recent Prendergast piece the following: Over the next couple of days, as the JonBenét case began to make headlines, Fleet heard wild speculations on talk radio about John Ramsey's son from a previous marriage. He called the police, demanding a press release stating what the cops and insiders knew to be true: that the young man wasn't even in Boulder when the crime occurred. He says he received an angry call from one of John's attorneys, Bryan Morgan, warning him not to interfere.

I don’t know if Stanton was spooked by rumors in Boulder about this case or not. From IRMI ST wrote this: But we all agreed that Melody Stanton, the neighbor who claimed to have heard a scream, “obviously that of a child,” on Christmas night, could have done so. I wanted to go over and talk to her right then and dig deeper into her story, but Deputy DA DeMuth refused, putting a blockade between police and Melody Stanton. He said he planned to “prep her” before trial . DeMuth didn’t explain his reasons to mere police officers and detectives. I could not fathom why a prosecutor would intentionally stop us from talking to her. Such a thing had never happened before in any investigation I was involved in, but with a wave of his hand— poof!—DeMuth sealed off an important avenue of investigation from the investigators.

If it was just one incidence of intimidation or extreme control over witnesses, I’d discount it. But from the several stories we’ve read, some level of fear had been spread by either hired guns (investigators/R attorneys) or by disturbed R supporters.

The reports about all of this led me to believe that there was a scream heard by Stanton. She had described it as a child’s blood-curdling scream which lasted 4/5 seconds. From pain of the molestation or from seeing someone about to harm her is the question. If we consider BR the perpetrator of the head strike, it looks to be a deliberate action, though likely not meant to kill her. This wasn't an accidental strike, imo, and JB passed into unconsciousness within a few seconds but not before recognizing that a person she had loved and trusted was going to make sure she was silenced. JMHO

And also, the dead cat found on ST's lawn while he was still on the investigation

 

[elannia]

okay....wanted to start a poll but dunno what's happening when you try to submit a new thread so I will post this question here...I wanted to know what you guys think about the scream,was it real or not?cause if it was this means poor JB saw it coming....it means she felt fear,she felt the threat,no?which means this wasn't just an accident.

Or maybe she could have screamed from the paintbrush stab? I realize that its been said that the paintbrush was used to cover up prior abuse, but what was done to her to MAKE her scream out? Maybe she did see the head bash coming, thats why the scream. Maybe someone jabbed her with the paintbrush which caused her to scream and thats the reason for the head bash. Could it have been Patsy screaming, if she found what had been done to JB, before the cover up started? But according to Kolar, it all started in the breakfast room, then from there she ended up in the basement. So if she was hit in the breakfast room how did MS hear a child scream? Would that have been possible for her to hear from that area? Does anyone know what she meant by the "negative energy" comment she made when asked if she had heard a child scream? Maybe she screamed to alert someone that she was being assualted, that resulting in the bash to hush her, not meant to kill her

 

[elannia]

otg,
BBM: So who dressed JonBenet's hair with asymetric ponytails?


.

Patsy did, when they arrived home after delivering gifts after the White's party. She walked in just ahead of PR up the spiral stairs, according to BR, and this is when she probably dressed JB for bed. But we know she never actually went to bed.

 

[DeeDee249]

otg,
BBM: So who dressed JonBenet's hair with asymetric ponytails?


.

THis has been discussed MANY times- I am sure you remember it. Patsy always pulled JB's long hair into a ponytail for sleeping- she told this to LE. In addition, JB often wore her hair in a topknot ponytail, with the rest hanging down her back long. She can be seen in this hairstyle in some of her school photos, and I believe the party photo from the Dec 23rd party. It is perfectly logical to think that when they came home from the White's party, the topknot was left in place (because it was easier than brushing it out at that late hour with so much for Patsy to do) and the long part of her hair was pulled in the usual ponytail at the nape of her neck.
Not every single thing has to have an ominous meaning or be related to the crime. Suggestions that there was some "hidden meaning" behind the 2 ponytails make no sense to me. JB would not have had this hairstyle for any other occasion than bedtime.
My own daughter had very long hair (still does) and her hair was always made into a braid or ponytail at the nape of her neck for bed.

 

[UKGuy]

Patsy did, when they arrived home after delivering gifts after the White's party. She walked in just ahead of PR up the spiral stairs, according to BR, and this is when she probably dressed JB for bed. But we know she never actually went to bed.

elannia,
BBM: How do we know this, you have any quotes, maybe an eyewitness?


.

 

[UKGuy]

THis has been discussed MANY times- I am sure you remember it. Patsy always pulled JB's long hair into a ponytail for sleeping- she told this to LE. In addition, JB often wore her hair in a topknot ponytail, with the rest hanging down her back long. She can be seen in this hairstyle in some of her school photos, and I believe the party photo from the Dec 23rd party. It is perfectly logical to think that when they came home from the White's party, the topknot was left in place (because it was easier than brushing it out at that late hour with so much for Patsy to do) and the long part of her hair was pulled in the usual ponytail at the nape of her neck.
Not every single thing has to have an ominous meaning or be related to the crime. Suggestions that there was some "hidden meaning" behind the 2 ponytails make no sense to me. JB would not have had this hairstyle for any other occasion than bedtime.
My own daughter had very long hair (still does) and her hair was always made into a braid or ponytail at the nape of her neck for bed.

DeeDee249,
ITA. What you suggest seems quite likely to me. Along with the pineapple snack, everything appears to portray a normal domestic scene.

So could Patsy have arranged JonBenet's hair as she sat in her chair at the breakfast bar?

.

 

[andreww]

So you are saying that the Ramseys carried a sleeping JB upstairs, changed her in to her pyjama bottoms, then did her hair? I don't recall reading that in either of their depositions.

 

[DeeDee249]

Or maybe she could have screamed from the paintbrush stab? I realize that its been said that the paintbrush was used to cover up prior abuse, but what was done to her to MAKE her scream out? Maybe she did see the head bash coming, thats why the scream. Maybe someone jabbed her with the paintbrush which caused her to scream and thats the reason for the head bash. Could it have been Patsy screaming, if she found what had been done to JB, before the cover up started? But according to Kolar, it all started in the breakfast room, then from there she ended up in the basement. So if she was hit in the breakfast room how did MS hear a child scream? Would that have been possible for her to hear from that area? Does anyone know what she meant by the "negative energy" comment she made when asked if she had heard a child scream? Maybe she screamed to alert someone that she was being assualted, that resulting in the bash to hush her, not meant to kill her

I think it is very possible that she was assaulted with the paintbrush handle and that caused the scream. Yes, you are correct that SOMETHING Made her scream. Something also made her BLEED. However, the autopsy showed no cuts or lacerations that might be expected with a stab from the broken handle of a splintered paintbrush. Some minute fragments of cellulose were found in her vagina, and I believe it was mentioned that splinters matching the brush were found in her vagina. They may have been deposited there by a finger if it was the same hand that snapped the paintbrush. The thought of someone forcefully penetrating her with that broken brush while she was alive and aware is chilling. But it could have happened. There is also the possibility that she was forcefully penetrated with a finger, which would also have hurt, possibly caused some bleeding, certainly could cause the bruising that was found and was thought to have occurred by the coroner. He told police present at the autopsy that his findings were consistent with digital penetration. Tests were done in the basement by police to determine whether a scream could be heard across the street by the Stanton's home and also on the 3rd floor parents' bedroom. It was determined that a scream COULD be heard from both locations.
When Melody Stanton reported the scream, she said that she did not call police because she felt that a scream that loud would certainly have been heard by whoever was in the home with the child. She also said she did not "want to get involved". Later, possibly after the RST got to her, she recanted and said it may have only been "negative energy" emanating from JB. By this, it was "New Age Speak" for a sound that may or may not be audible but can be sensed or felt as an energy from someone under extreme stress. Sometimes this is heard as an audible sound, sometimes it is only heard in someone's mind. However, I believe she did hear an audible scream. She believed it too, because later, she recanted again and admitted that she did, in fact, HEAR an audible child's scream. I would say that she only said it might have been "negative energy" because by this time, the murder of JB was national news and hearing the scream would have made her a witness in a way. And required a testimony under oath had this gone to trial. Mrs Stanton did NOT want to be involved in this case, and I am sure the defense lawyers go to her an threatened her about mentioning something she could not prove she heard. So then she said that maybe she didn't really here it. After that, the Stantons were so upset about it all that they moved out of town! After they moved away, then she admitted that she did actually hear the scream.
It has never been PROVEN where she was bashed or where the sexual assault happened or "where it started", regardless of what Kolar or anyone else thinks. Because it is just that- a THOUGHT. No proof. Many people feel that it may very well have been Patsy who screamed, having seen her dying daughter. A woman's scream might sound like a child's, especially to someone who was woken from sleep by it.
Unfortunately, the house was turned over to the family WAY too soon. Patsy's sister was allowed in (by POLICE, no less) and very likely removed some evidence or at the very least, contaminated it. Then- the house was sold to a group of R friends and investors (including lawyers), who pulled up every carpet in the house and removed all wallpaper and painted every wall white. To call it a "whitewash" would be very accurate. NO way to prove then where any of it happened. The urine -stained carpets were gone, as well as any tiny blood droplets that may have been on walls or floors. And that was the end of that.

 

[elannia]

elannia,
BBM: How do we know this, you have any quotes, maybe an eyewitness?


.

Sounds like your coming off as snarky UKGuy, no, I have no eyewitness or quotes, well actually there is a quote BR stated that she was AWAKE when they arrived home because she walked in, up the steps ahead of Patsy, which leads me to believe they were heading up to dress JB to bed, thats my opinion. Add the pineapple evidence, JB hair is different from the way she wore it to the White's, yes imo, she NEVER went to bed. She may have been dressed for bed but she did not sleep that night. All my opinion UKGuy

 

[andreww]

Just searched through both Patsy's statements and there is no mention of her doing JBs hair that night, although to be fair she wasn't really asked about it. My question is, was her hairstyle different from what she wore to the Whites? I've never seen pictures from the Whites.

 

[andreww]

I understand that, but what I'm asking is would it be a logical thing to do a sleeping child'd hair?

 

[elannia]

Just searched through both Patsy's statements and there is no mention of her doing JBs hair that night, although to be fair she wasn't really asked about it. My question is, was her hairstyle different from what she wore to the Whites? I've never seen pictures from the Whites.

I have heard it was different, but not sure the truth about it

 

[DeeDee249]

Patsy wasn't asked about how she fixed JB's hair that night. But she had mentioned previously that she used to pull JB's long hair into a ponytail for sleeping so her hair wouldn't tangle.

 

[DeeDee249]

Patsy wasn't asked about how she fixed JB's hair that night. But she had mentioned previously that she used to pull JB's long hair into a ponytail for sleeping so her hair wouldn't tangle.
In a 4/30/1997 interview with Steve Thomas, Patsy was asked about how JB usually wore her hair to bed and Patsy said she usually wore it in a ponytail. The interview can be seen on acandyrose.

http://www.acandyrose.com/s-evidence-jewelry.htm

Scroll down to the 1997 interview with Steve Thomas

 

[andreww]

Patsy wasn't asked about how she fixed JB's hair that night. But she had mentioned previously that she used to pull JB's long hair into a ponytail for sleeping so her hair wouldn't tangle.

Yes, I read that part. But I just can't find any factual statement that says her hair was any different than it was at the Whites. Surely if it was, the police would have questioned her about it?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[elannia]

Why was her body released so soon after the autopsy? I understand parents wanting to have a funeral but this was the murder of their daughter. It seems like the officials would want to hold it for further examination if they needed to go back and recheck anything. I know from reports that they had in fact tried to "ransom", "hold" the body until the R's gave interviews, but they eventually had to give her over. They could have held a service and then buried her later, this could have helped the investigation(stun gun, etc). As DeeDee stated the house was released way too soon afterwards, so much more could have been done with the investigation and looking for more evidence. But the R's never stepped foot into that house again and got outta dodge, even trying to leave after JR found her. He suddenly had an important business meeting in ATL, even though they were going to MI and the boat trip.