RDI Theories & Discussion ONLY!

[andreww]

Elannia, I believe that in those early days LE believed that this case was going to be fairly straight forward. They suspected the Ramsey's from the start and nothing they did gave them any reason to change that opinion. I believe they figured that once they had the Ramsey's in for questioning, one of them would crack, and that would be the basis for their case.

The hard part for LE is that the likely suspects all lived in the house, so fingerprints and DNA don't mean a lot. Combine that with the fact that the Ramsey's were being deceptive and had likely cleaned the crime scene. LE couldn't take every one of their possessions as evidence. The took apart drains and the took suspicious carpet samples, but really they had no idea what they were looking for. They weren't even aware of the head blow at the time!

They had to release the house at some point and I'm sure the Rs lawyers were pressing for that, even though they never intended to go back there. You would think that if it really was an intruder. The Rs would have allowed them to have access for as long as LE wanted.


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[UKGuy]

Sounds like your coming off as snarky UKGuy, no, I have no eyewitness or quotes, well actually there is a quote BR stated that she was AWAKE when they arrived home because she walked in, up the steps ahead of Patsy, which leads me to believe they were heading up to dress JB to bed, thats my opinion. Add the pineapple evidence, JB hair is different from the way she wore it to the White's, yes imo, she NEVER went to bed. She may have been dressed for bed but she did not sleep that night. All my opinion UKGuy

elannia,
Yup I do snarky too, courtesy of edward lear. I agree she likely never slept that night, but we cannot assume she never went to bed.

She may have left the breakfast bar, heading up to her bedroom and settled in her bed. I'm assuming she was dressed in her pink barbie nightgown and that Patsy dressed her hair.

Givin that neither Patsy or John thought it necessary to clean up the breakfast bar, makes me think the pineapple snack was an event that concluded with everyone going their separate ways?

James Kolar has offered no reasons as to why the primary crime-scene must be the breakfast bar, since if this is the case why did the parents not clean it up?

So I suspect JonBenet made it to her bedroom and went to bed, but was joined quite quickly by BR. It could be that JonBenet and Burke jointly made there way to Burke's bedroom and stuff kicked off there.

This would be my preferred theory, but the forensic evidence suggests it was JonBenet's bedroom. Although evidence of staging makes me think her bedroom was originally staged also?

ETA: If Burke's bedroom was the primary scene then of course James Kolar could not reference this at all, whereas he can cite the breakkfast bar whch does not implicitly link BR to the basement crime-scene.

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[UKGuy]

Just searched through both Patsy's statements and there is no mention of her doing JBs hair that night, although to be fair she wasn't really asked about it. My question is, was her hairstyle different from what she wore to the Whites? I've never seen pictures from the Whites.

andreww,
BBM: JonBenet's hairstyle forms no part of the R's version of events, hence no need for questions, i.e. the investigators know there is an inconsistency. Interview questions are usually framed to elicit inconsistencies.

There is the possibility that JonBenet's hairstyle represents prior staging by Patsy so to substantiate a prior staging, where JonBenet did walk into the house, did snack pineapple, did have her hair styled, did retire to bed, only to be attacked by an intruder!

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[elannia]

elannia,
Yup I do snarky too, courtesy of edward lear. I agree she likely never slept that night, but we cannot assume she never went to bed.

She may have left the breakfast bar, heading up to her bedroom and settled in her bed. I'm assuming she was dressed in her pink barbie nightgown and that Patsy dressed her hair.

Givin that neither Patsy or John thought it necessary to clean up the breakfast bar, makes me think the pineapple snack was an event that concluded with everyone going their separate ways?

James Kolar has offered no reasons as to why the primary crime-scene must be the breakfast bar, since if this is the case why did the parents not clean it up?

So I suspect JonBenet made it to her bedroom and went to bed, but was joined quite quickly by BR. It could be that JonBenet and Burke jointly made there way to Burke's bedroom and stuff kicked off there.

This would be my preferred theory, but the forensic evidence suggests it was JonBenet's bedroom. Although evidence of staging makes me think her bedroom was originally staged also?

ETA: If Burke's bedroom was the primary scene then of course James Kolar could not reference this at all, whereas he can cite the breakkfast bar whch does not implicitly link BR to the basement crime-scene.

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Ok, i cannot assume she did not get into her bed. But imo she did not. This is how I see it playing out... They arrive home and JB walks up the spiral steps just ahead of patsy(I actually believe BR here) I believe they were going up to JB room to get her ready for bed, imo she put on the pink nightgown and fixed her hair for bed. Patsy said she had some last minute things to do for the trip(I believe her on this too) but imo, JB was hungry and wanted a snack, after getting ready for bed. B was still up as well supposedly putting together a toy, but the tea bag in that glass confuses me. But it puts B at the table at some point. Anyways, maybe the parents did go to bed and maybe JB and B went to their rooms, but perhaps one got up and went to the others room. She was known to have slept in his room before. How's this, could he have went into her room, with the FL (he didnt want to wake his parents) the neighbor saw strange lights moving around, so he could have gotten the FL, turned it on (strange lights from neighbor comment), not to wake parents, and went into her room, maybe to assualt her, she was tired, fought against him, Patsy asked TH during an interview this" I dont see any blood on it, do you", meaning the draperies in JB room, but what blood, she didnt bleed from the head wound, so why would she ask. So could he have hit her then with FL, then someone wiped it clean and put it back on the counter. But we dont know if thats even the place the FL originated from.

 

[UKGuy]

Ok, i cannot assume she did not get into her bed. But imo she did not. This is how I see it playing out... They arrive home and JB walks up the spiral steps just ahead of patsy(I actually believe BR here) I believe they were going up to JB room to get her ready for bed, imo she put on the pink nightgown and fixed her hair for bed. Patsy said she had some last minute things to do for the trip(I believe her on this too) but imo, JB was hungry and wanted a snack, after getting ready for bed. B was still up as well supposedly putting together a toy, but the tea bag in that glass confuses me. But it puts B at the table at some point. Anyways, maybe the parents did go to bed and maybe JB and B went to their rooms, but perhaps one got up and went to the others room. She was known to have slept in his room before. How's this, could he have went into her room, with the FL (he didnt want to wake his parents) the neighbor saw strange lights moving around, so he could have gotten the FL, turned it on (strange lights from neighbor comment), not to wake parents, and went into her room, maybe to assualt her, she was tired, fought against him, Patsy asked TH during an interview this" I dont see any blood on it, do you", meaning the draperies in JB room, but what blood, she didnt bleed from the head wound, so why would she ask. So could he have hit her then with FL, then someone wiped it clean and put it back on the counter. But we dont know if thats even the place the FL originated from.

elannia,
It could have gone just as you describe. I reckon it all kicked of in either BR or JonBenet's bedroom.

but the tea bag in that glass confuses me.

BR's fingerprints were on the teaglass and the pineapple bowl which does directly link him to the breakfast bar. It could be that the teaglass is simply a repository for the used teabag, and BR drank from a mug or cup, which was later washed by the volunteers?

She was known to have slept in his room before. How's this, could he have went into her room, with the FL

Entirely possible, but I'm not certain any of the R's would really need a flashlight upstairs, maybe down in the basement, but upstairs they would know their way about, even in the dark?

Patsy asked TH during an interview this" I dont see any blood on it, do you", meaning the draperies in JB room, but what blood, she didnt bleed from the head wound, so why would she ask.

JonBenet may have bled from the head wound via her nose or ears. A blood sample was lifted from her bedroom pillow and is cited along with other DNA evidence.

There are also bloodstains on JonBenet's pink barbie nightgown along with BR's touch-dna, which together with the breakfast bar evidence links him to JonBenet's death!

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[elannia]

elannia,
It could have gone just as you describe. I reckon it all kicked of in either BR or JonBenet's bedroom.

BR's fingerprints were on the teaglass and the pineapple bowl which does directly link him to the breakfast bar. It could be that the teaglass is simply a repository for the used teabag, and BR drank from a mug or cup, which was later washed by the volunteers?


Entirely possible, but I'm not certain any of the R's would really need a flashlight upstairs, maybe down in the basement, but upstairs they would know their way about, even in the dark?


JonBenet may have bled from the head wound via her nose or ears. A blood sample was lifted from her bedroom pillow and is cited along with other DNA evidence.

There are also bloodstains on JonBenet's pink barbie nightgown along with BR's touch-dna, which together with the breakfast bar evidence links him to JonBenet's death!

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The Ramsey' wouldn't have needed a FL for upstairs, but if they were busy covering up a crime scene then they wouldnt want lights to be on upstairs and neighbors seeing the lights on when supposedly an intruder killed their daughter

 

[midwest mama]

Just a quick question. The Ramsey's say JB was asleep when they got home and that they carried her to bed. As I understand it, her hair was done in pigtails when she was found? And her hair was without pigtails at the Whites? How was that explained by the Ramsey's? Do they suggest an intruder did it?

Am I off the mark here? I can't remember reading anything directly related to her hair but have seen lots of people mentioning it.


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I can't remember (which leaves this open to correction) ever reading anything about questioning of the R's by either LE or TV interviewers about the styling of JB's hair when she was found......whether it looked different in the White's Christmas party photos from the way it was styled when she was found. I do seem to recall that there was one multicolored fabric bow listed on the evidence list, but more than one elastic band, which would definitely fit with the two ponytails. IMO, that doesn't mean, though, that there was not another matching multicolor bow placed over the securing band on the 2nd ponytail. The 2nd bow could have been removed by someone during the crime. Maybe to facilitate the function of the garrote, or even during any activity that also produced the other bruises and abrasions, particularly on the back of her body.

But, somewhere, the knowledge has been gleaned from something either written or said to someone, that JB's hair was put into two ponytails at night to keep it from tangling so much.

I do recall that a hairbrush of JR's was taken into evidence. That was the only hairbrush that was on an evidence list, to the best of my knowledge.

 

[DeeDee249]

Yes, I read that part. But I just can't find any factual statement that says her hair was any different than it was at the Whites. Surely if it was, the police would have questioned her about it?


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There are photos of how her hair was at the White's, so police know how she wore her hair and what clothing they all wore to the party.

 

[andreww]

There are photos of how her hair was at the White's, so police know how she wore her hair and what clothing they all wore to the party.

I get that. But I see a lot of internet debate that Patsy must have put her hair in ponytails after arriving home that night. I'd just like to know if there is any evidence available to us that suggests JBs hairstyle at the Whites was any different than how it was found on her dead body? Nobody seems to be able to say one way or the other.

 

[DeeDee249]

I get that. But I see a lot of internet debate that Patsy must have put her hair in ponytails after arriving home that night. I'd just like to know if there is any evidence available to us that suggests JBs hairstyle at the Whites was any different than how it was found on her dead body? Nobody seems to be able to say one way or the other.

Nobody can say one way or the other because nobody has seen photos from the party except police. I would say that since police DID discuss JB's hairstyle with Patsy in that interview with Steve Thomas, that it likely was noticed that it was different. I also believe people make WAY too much of that hairstyle. The top ponytail was put in place for the party and was found wrapped in a fabric hairtie (known as a scrunci) that was black,red & white and would have matched JB's black velvet/white shirt outfit. These fabric hairties were very common then, used to cover the elastic on a ponytail, and are still common today. The bottom ponytail was the one Patsy said she always made for JB's bedtime, to keep the long hair from getting tangled as she slept. That one would not have needed a fabric hairtie, as the elastic would be sufficient to keep it in place and the scrunci is decorative rather than functional for the most part. These fabric hairties do not hold the hair as securely as an elastic.
I have explained how I myself, have made that exact same bedtime hairstyle on my own daughter's long hair. There is nothing ominous, suspicious, sexual, cult-like or any thing else about that hairdo in my opinion. It is simply the way a mother fixed a child's long hair for bed. Period.

 

[elannia]

Need some help here... During JR interview with LS in 98(this is from acandyrose) they are looking through photographs(sorry, cannot link using my phone) and they are talking about a photo and LS asked if he knew who would have taken that photo, JR replied he was having trouble with his camera, didnt remember doing it.... Then "this looks like the pad frankly I gave her"... LS says"that could be an actual pad of pictures taken prior to what happened... JR talks about a school bag, toy, red present, day timer not being in that photo. I am just curious, are they talking about the stuff near the spiral staircase? Also LS tells JR its in his roll of pictures

 

[andreww]

Need some help here... During JR interview with LS in 98(this is from acandyrose) they are looking through photographs(sorry, cannot link using my phone) and they are talking about a photo and LS asked if he knew who would have taken that photo, JR replied he was having trouble with his camera, didnt remember doing it.... Then "this looks like the pad frankly I gave her"... LS says"that could be an actual pad of pictures taken prior to what happened... JR talks about a school bag, toy, red present, day timer not being in that photo. I am just curious, are they talking about the stuff near the spiral staircase? Also LS tells JR its in his roll of pictures

Just going by memory here but I believe they were talking about a photo of nothing in particular that was probably shot accidentally. On old film cameras it used to happen fairly frequently.


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[elannia]

Commenting on my earlier post, supposedly JR was snapping pics to get to the end of the roll of film. This is when he took the pictures of the wet bar, etc, near the spiral staircase. Apparently he had inadvertently taken photos of the table which had the pad the RN was written on. This seems odd to me, the pads were there, then someone wrote the RN that night, then put the pads back where they were? Maybe the note was written there, then left there until police came (no FP, and of course imo, the note was NEVER on the stairs, it wouldnt need be because a R wrote it).

 

[andreww]

Commenting on my earlier post, supposedly JR was snapping pics to get to the end of the roll of film. This is when he took the pictures of the wet bar, etc, near the spiral staircase. Apparently he had inadvertently taken photos of the table which had the pad the RN was written on. This seems odd to me, the pads were there, then someone wrote the RN that night, then put the pads back where they were? Maybe the note was written there, then left there until police came (no FP, and of course imo, the note was NEVER on the stairs, it wouldnt need be because a R wrote it).

I wonder if the note might have been on the stairs. The Rs might have simulated a 5:30 wake up, doing what they probably would have done if they were actually leaving. Thats what I would have done anyway as it easier to remember a fake story if it actually happened. But you may be right, Patsy wearing yesterday's clothes seems to indicate that she was probably lying about the getting dressed, hair and makeup aspect of her events of the morning. I wonder if she chose to wear that outfit because she was worried about her sweater fibres being all over the body? That would explain her dramatic dive on to JB's dead body in front of the Xmas tree. Once she did that, any fibre evidence became easily explainable. If that were the case, I wonder how much JR might have had to do with this? Wouldn't he have worn the same sweater if he was worried about fibres? It would have been suspicious for sure, but there is no law against wearing the same clothes two days straight. I wonder if John really had nothing more to do with this than aid in the coverup?

 

[chlban]

I wonder if the note might have been on the stairs. The Rs might have simulated a 5:30 wake up, doing what they probably would have done if they were actually leaving. Thats what I would have done anyway as it easier to remember a fake story if it actually happened. But you may be right, Patsy wearing yesterday's clothes seems to indicate that she was probably lying about the getting dressed, hair and makeup aspect of her events of the morning. I wonder if she chose to wear that outfit because she was worried about her sweater fibres being all over the body? That would explain her dramatic dive on to JB's dead body in front of the Xmas tree. Once she did that, any fibre evidence became easily explainable. If that were the case, I wonder how much JR might have had to do with this? Wouldn't he have worn the same sweater if he was worried about fibres? It would have been suspicious for sure, but there is no law against wearing the same clothes two days straight. I wonder if John really had nothing more to do with this than aid in the coverup?

That's always been my primary theory-John only involved in the cover up, that it. I cannot say that I ever thought Patsy planned it so well that she would think about fibers. That seems a stretch to me. It would require awfully clear thinking in a crisis and if she was thinking that clearly I can't imagine that she thought anyone would find that Ransom Note even remotely believable.

The RN is one of the main reasons I do not think John was involved. I think he was too smart to think that would work.

Of course, I believe he figured it out quickly and was complicit in the cover up and evasions after the fact.
I just cannot buy that he would have signed off on that ridiculous Ransom Note.

I know some people explain that by assuming he was doing other things and didn't read the note prior to the police arriving. It's possible, of course, but that seems like such an important piece of it.

If they had just written a believable RN and then acted like people who actually believed what was in the note (and not invited half of Boulder over for morniing cofee) I think it would have gone a lot smoother for them.
I was going to say they would have gotten away with it but, oh yeah. They did anyway.

 

[DeeDee249]

I do not believe the note was ever on the stairs. When Officer French arrived that morning (within minutes of the 911 call) he was handed the note by one of the parents. I believe he looked at it, and then may have told them to place it back where they found it. But of course, he would not have known where (or IF) they "found it" anyway.
Right about them getting away with it. All the players in this farce acted brilliantly. From police mistakes, to the "advice" the parents got from their lawyers, to the obstructionist DA (without whose help this travesty of justice could not have happened) to the malfeasance perpetrated by LW and LS. They all came together in a cascade of a miscarriage of justice. And I hope that wherever Smit is now, that he KNOWS what happened and knows the part he played in seeing that justice will never happen for this little girl. And I hope he had to face her after he died.

 

[questfortrue]

QUOTE=DeeDee249;11366618]I do not believe the note was ever on the stairs. When Officer French arrived that morning (within minutes of the 911 call) he was handed the note by one of the parents. I believe he looked at it, and then may have told them to place it back where they found it. But of course, he would not have known where (or IF) they "found it" anyway.
Right about them getting away with it. All the players in this farce acted brilliantly. From police mistakes, to the "advice" the parents got from their lawyers, to the obstructionist DA (without whose help this travesty of justice could not have happened) to the malfeasance perpetrated by LW and LS. They all came together in a cascade of a miscarriage of justice. And I hope that wherever Smit is now, that he KNOWS what happened and knows the part he played in seeing that justice will never happen for this little girl. And I hope he had to face her after he died.[/QUOTE]

:goodpost: -:bow: and :applause:

 

[elannia]

I do not believe the note was ever on the stairs. When Officer French arrived that morning (within minutes of the 911 call) he was handed the note by one of the parents. I believe he looked at it, and then may have told them to place it back where they found it. But of course, he would not have known where (or IF) they "found it" anyway.
Right about them getting away with it. All the players in this farce acted brilliantly. From police mistakes, to the "advice" the parents got from their lawyers, to the obstructionist DA (without whose help this travesty of justice could not have happened) to the malfeasance perpetrated by LW and LS. They all came together in a cascade of a miscarriage of justice. And I hope that wherever Smit is now, that he KNOWS what happened and knows the part he played in seeing that justice will never happen for this little girl. And I hope he had to face her after he died.

ITA DeeDee, PR did not place the note on the stairs. IMO she wrote it, there was no need for her to place it there

 

[UKGuy]

ITA DeeDee, PR did not place the note on the stairs. IMO she wrote it, there was no need for her to place it there

elannia,
If PR never placed the RN on the stairs or if it was never there, as some suspect, then where was it placed originally?

Well since JonBenet was meant to have been kidnapped from her bed, then thats where I reckon it should have been left? Why the stairs, who could have told anyone could have come down the stairs, missed the RN and kicked it to one side, out of view?

The placement of the RN is yet another curiosity in the Ramsey's version of events!

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[elannia]

elannia,
If PR never placed the RN on the stairs or if it was never there, as some suspect, then where was it placed originally?

Well since JonBenet was meant to have been kidnapped from her bed, then thats where I reckon it should have been left? Why the stairs, who could have told anyone could have come down the stairs, missed the RN and kicked it to one side, out of view?

The placement of the RN is yet another curiosity in the Ramsey's version of events!

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Well if Patsy wrote the RN she wouldnt have had to place it on the stairs(imagine this, patsy writes note, places it on the stairs for someone(herself) to "discover" it, if she wrote it why would she place it there for HERSELF to find it). Maybe the note was left on the pad until LE arrived that morning. If JR is innocent, she could have gotten the note off the pad? then yelled for him, knowing he was in the shower and told him that JB was "kidnapped" and showed him the note. But what about the FP? Supposedly JR put the note on the floor to read it better (which I dont buy for one second). So if both are guilty, I believe the note was either on the pad until police arrived, or somewhere else. But JF stated(actually in court case I believe) that he read the RN through the door. If the R's are innocent then who knew to put the RN on the stairs (the stairs that PR used all the time) to be found