Evidence you can't explain

[eileenhawkeye]

I don't think Patsy wanted JonBenet's body to get destroyed by the elements. She wanted her to be buried looking lie a "child beauty queen" not like how she would look if she was outside for months or years. I do wonder if after seeing other missing child cases on the news, if Patsy wished that she had dumped JonBenet's body outside, because then there could be thousands of searchers looking for her, she could make pleas to the abductor on national TV, etc.

 

[Sandstorm]

Does anyone know why the childrens medical records were never subpoena by LE and the great doctor forced to turn them in. Being a nurse and the doctor I work with, I asked him this question yesterday. I understand hippa, but in a criminal investigation and homicide case, he can not legally hold them hostage.......can he? Yet I live in NC and the law is different here that in CO.TIA

According to Steve Thomas, the investigators could not even get the Ramsey phone records. The DA's office was in bed with Team Ramsey. Snuggled up really tight -
which made it impossible for the Boulder Police Dept to make any progress in the case.

 

[questfortrue]

Please forgive my randomness, but not sure where to post/ask....

This was on another thread, and for me, it's not believable as it has been my experience that none of this is true, and is not any way part of what is taken as fact in this case....maybe I'm wrong and any clarity would be greatly appreciated....



Full article at the link.....


http://web.dailycamera.com/extra/ramsey/1997/03/16-2.html

I'm scratching my head here.

Sounds to me like someone must have gotten to this reporter (CE of the Daily Camera) early on. It’s not accurate. The ‘psychiatric’ records referred to in his article were those handled routinely after a homicide in a home to determine if a child needed treatment or should be removed from a dangerous environment in the home. Dr. S. Bernhard was the attending interviewer (acandyrose) and she was a psychologist, not a psychiatrist. Kolar relies on several of her insights and interactions with BR. She recommended BR be seen again, but it’s never been verified that he was.

In PMPT book Schiller mentions that on Feb. 10 Detective JH obtained a signed release from PR and JR allowing her to speak to Dr. B’s nursing staff. On March 25 Detective JH was allowed to interview Dr. B and he summarized the child’s medical history. No records were turned over.

Pertaining to the therapists, credit to OTG for pointing out this link in ST’s book: “When Detective G called a therapist who we were told had seen JB, he was told to ‘talk to the parents’ attorneys.’ Team Ramsey claimed, contrary to legal opinion the cops had received, that the doctor-patient privilege between (Dr. )B and JB extended past the grave.” Also in ST’s book was another item claiming that MB said the pediatrician, Dr. B, had determined that BR could not be interviewed by police.

Regards school nurse records on JB none were ever turned over. Lastly, it is doubtful that LE had ever been given permission to subpoena the records of BR visits to Dr. J, a noted Atlanta psychiatrist. Dr. J was attached to the university there and specialized in treating drug and alcohol problems in youth. He was not a specialist in SBP, which according to the website we’ve been referred to (again by OTG - http://www.cyc-net.org/cyc-online/cycol-0801-toni2.html) , is critical for being able to successfully treat SBP.

Take from this what you will, but imo it simply seems as though this medical history on both kids, wasn’t something the R team wanted released. With the help of AH, they were successful in having it (medical history) suppressed. moo

 

[Mountain_Kat]

Where exactly would they have dumped a beloved child? Side of the road? Dumpster? Out in the snow? They wrapped her dead body in a blanket, for Pete's sake...no way they would have been able to bring themselves to just dump her like trash. Even if John had argued for that, Patsy would have become hysterical at the mere suggestion of it.

JMO

 

[borndem]

Where exactly would they have dumped a beloved child? Side of the road? Dumpster? Out in the snow? They wrapped her dead body in a blanket, for Pete's sake...no way they would have been able to bring themselves to just dump her like trash. Even if John had argued for that, Patsy would have become hysterical at the mere suggestion of it.

JMO

Agreed, Mountain_Kat -- but if JR had promised to hide her somewhere where her body would have been "protected" from the elements and the cold -- as much as possible -- and hiding her where she would be quickly found would have been very important. But I still see PR being adamant about it not happening. JR, if he were the one who did the molesting, would have been in a panic to hide her body; if BR were the one and JR had no idea, then JR would have been more amenable to leaving (or putting) her in the WC. What a flippin' mess, no matter how you think about it.:maddening:

And, IMO, the white blanket was a real gamble -- how would the perps have known that it was her favorite blanket? And where was the blanket? If it were really in the dryer, IMO the perps would have never found it. It's a real giveaway to me -- bad choice for the R's to make, but that blanket was given no thought apparently by LE or the DA's office. The Ramseys were really beating the odds thru pure dumb luck and perhaps the DA's office in their pockets...:waitasec:

:dunno: It is indeed amazing how lucky the elder R's were in getting away with it all :notgood:. Till now and prolly till those pigs start flying...:dunno:

 

[Darlene733510]

If I remember correctly, the RN said that if the R's deviated from the instructions, that JBR would be beheaded. From that part of the RN, it seems, that they really staged the WC as though that could very well happen. A piece of wire was found near the body, and there was a knot in the wire.

 

[BBB167893]

Exactly, Tawny. They were stuck.

I have also wondered if PR just couldn't stand the thought of JB's little body being left outside in the cold Colorado weather. Certainly JR could have put it somewhere that it would have been found fairly soon, but perhaps that's why PR made the call when she did.

What a tangled web they wove...

We'll just never know...

BBM. I agree. I think the idea of JB being ravaged by the elements was too much for PR to think about. After all, that way, she never would have been able to crow about how pretty JB looked in the casket. It was the ultimate pageant.

Did two complete amateurs commit the perfect crime? So far, yes, IMO. If this scenario had occurred in another town, would things have been handled differently? But that's a topic for another time...

Damn right it would have! The Georgia cops marveled at how gingerly the Rs were being treated.

Folks, I've said it a million times, and it bears repeating: standard procedure in solving a case like this is to put the two suspects in separate cells and squeeze until one of them pops and gives up the other. If this had been any other place, that would have been done. The cops in this case WANTED to do exactly that, but Alex Hunter shot it down.

 

[EastCoast]

And Super Dave, that is exactly what happened here. And as to the disposal of the body, no parent wants to leave the body in the cold. I think that was an issue in the wee mornings. With the ransom note, I think they argued over that, PR and JR. no way PR would leave the body in the elements. That is why so many loose ends, it was a question of what is tolerated and what is considered a perfect crime.

 

[BBB167893]

And Super Dave, that is exactly what happened here. And as to the disposal of the body, no parent wants to leave the body in the cold. I think that was an issue in the wee mornings. With the ransom note, I think they argued over that, PR and JR. no way PR would leave the body in the elements. That is why so many loose ends, it was a question of what is tolerated and what is considered a perfect crime.

Well, you look at it this EastCoast: of all the high-profile murders of children in the last 13 years, how many of them were dumped? Then measure the percentage of which ones were dumped by stranger killers vs parental killers. It's a lopsided ratio to say the least.

 

[txsvicki]

There could have been a few thoughts about burying the body since the note threatened that the body would not be given to John if cops were called.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

Well, you look at it this EastCoast: of all the high-profile murders of children in the last 13 years, how many of them were dumped? Then measure the percentage of which ones were dumped by stranger killers vs parental killers. It's a lopsided ratio to say the least.

But a stranger pretty has to dump the child's body somewhere. Are they just going to leave the body in their house?

From what I've seen, the parents who kill their child, and then don't get rid of the body...are arrested right away. See "Crimes Against Children" forum. A lot of these people tend to be uneducated, young people...a lot of "boyfriends" of "Mom"....They will claim that the child had an accident, but then they arrested for murder. The parents who dump their child's body outside....Well, from what I've seen, a lot of them tend to get away with it (so far). These parents all seem to be more likely to be middle class in a lot of cases.

ETA: The Ramseys are the only parents I can think of who were there when their child's body was discovered...but were never arrested.

 

[EastCoast]

Well, you look at it this EastCoast: of all the high-profile murders of children in the last 13 years, how many of them were dumped? Then measure the percentage of which ones were dumped by stranger killers vs parental killers. It's a lopsided ratio to say the least.

I can agree with that.

 

[EastCoast]

but how many were not?

 

[EastCoast]

Well, you look at it this EastCoast: of all the high-profile murders of children in the last 13 years, how many of them were dumped? Then measure the percentage of which ones were dumped by stranger killers vs parental killers. It's a lopsided ratio to say the least.

This is not a serial killer or for that matter a killer at all

 

[Anyhoo]

But a stranger pretty has to dump the child's body somewhere. Are they just going to leave the body in their house?

From what I've seen, the parents who kill their child, and then don't get rid of the body...are arrested right away. See "Crimes Against Children" forum. A lot of these people tend to be uneducated, young people...a lot of "boyfriends" of "Mom"....They will claim that the child had an accident, but then they arrested for murder. The parents who dump their child's body outside....Well, from what I've seen, a lot of them tend to get away with it (so far). These parents all seem to be more likely to be middle class in a lot of cases.

ETA: The Ramseys are the only parents I can think of who were there when their child's body was discovered...but were never arrested.

Yes, and to this day I have never understood why they were not arrested. What were the police thinking? Had they not been wealthy influential people, would they have been arrested? Had there been no fake kidnapping/ransom, would they have been arrested? I just don't understand why the police were so deferential to the parents in this case when any other parents would be the prime suspects.

 

[borndem]

In any violent crime, and even in some non-violent, LE starts at the core of the family or group, and then they work outward from there as soon as possible. Often LE gets stuck on the spouse, parents, best friends, etc., etc., because they aren't satisfied enuff to go on to the next level. So they stay there till they resolve that part of the puzzle.

We have all heard complaints from folks who say that LE was short-sighted or unfair or inexperienced, etc., because they never looked beyond the spouse, parent, etc., etc. Well wonder why, sports fans? LE didn't leave because they had solid reasons to stay...hmmm. And as SuperDave says: They never got them in separate cells. Heyell, they were never able to get them into separate rooms, as in a 1 on 1. SuperDave is so right-on.

It's hard to make progress when your car is only allowed to operate in neutral. Grrrr.

And I have never seen a case where the DA and LE were at such odds with each other. Never.

In this case, IMO, it all goes back to the old saying: Money talks, BS walks. JMHO.

Sad, sad, sad.

 

[DeeDee249]

Yes, and to this day I have never understood why they were not arrested. What were the police thinking? Had they not been wealthy influential people, would they have been arrested? Had there been no fake kidnapping/ransom, would they have been arrested? I just don't understand why the police were so deferential to the parents in this case when any other parents would be the prime suspects.

It wasn't the police. They WANTED to arrest both parents THAT DAY. It was the DA who refused to allow it.

 

[BBB167893]

It wasn't the police. They WANTED to arrest both parents THAT DAY. It was the DA who refused to allow it.

And you have to wonder why.

All respect to my bro, my feeling is that it was against his hippie principles. I'd say his record speaks for itself.

 

[borndem]

Quote of partial post by SuperDave:

I agree. I think the idea of JB being ravaged by the elements was too much for PR to think about. After all, that way, she never would have been able to crow about how pretty JB looked in the casket. It was the ultimate pageant.

bbm

Never thought about it, but you nailed that one, SuperDave!

 

[Mendara]

The large underwear she had on.