RDI Theories & Discussion ONLY!

[otg]

(rsbm)

He is implying without being explicit that one person sexually assaulted, manually strangled, applied blunt force, and ligature asphyxiated JonBenet.

Where do you read into anything he says that she was "manually strangled" as well as being ligature asphyxiated?

I don't see any signs of manual strangulation in the photos we have, no one with access to other information has said that it happened, and I don't see how you can read that into what Kolar said.

 

[SapphireSteel]

One simply cannot rely on all the books written on Jonbenet

Profiteers one and all

Kolar had to come up with shocking new twists to sell his book

NO WHERE ELSE have I read of excrement smearing yet thanks to Kolar this is now Part of the Jonbenet Legend.

 

[andreww]

One simply cannot rely on all the books written on Jonbenet

Profiteers one and all

Kolar had to come up with shocking new twists to sell his book

NO WHERE ELSE have I read of excrement smearing yet thanks to Kolar this is now Part of the Jonbenet Legend.

Where else would you have heard it from besides Thomas or Kolar? These guys are the only guys that had access to everything. Do you honestly think Kolar would risk his reputation by making things up? Especially a somewhat insignificant piece of evidence?

 

[observation]

Excellent, Olivia! We don't know exactly what Kolar's sequence of events is in his theory. He has been deliberately vague in his public statements -- and understandably so. Unfortunately, I think he has placed too much confidence in some of the opinions of so-called medical experts who see certain things and interpret them according to their own beliefs. The most blatant of these undeserved (IMO) confidences is his buying into Dr. Spitz' ideas. Spitz has said things that are demonstrably wrong, and yet some of his thoughts are given credit by Kolar as being correct. I understand the desire of a non-medical person like Kolar to trust the opinion of someone who has extensive medical training, but I've seen too many medical mistakes in my own lifetime to have that much confidence in any single "expert".

If (as you suggest, Olivia) Kolar thinks the paintbrush was added after JonBenet had already been strangled, I agree completely with him on that. This has been part of my theory since I first started reading the details about this. If that part is true, I believe it was done to accomplish two things: (1) it changes the appearance of the way the cord was actually used to strangle her, and (2) it masks how the paintbrush was actually used during the crime. This completely obfuscates a major portion of the evidence that could not be completely covered up.


Exactly! There may very well have been some sort of backroom deal that the Ramseys agreed to place Burke in therapy in return for no charges against anyone and no public announcements about what really happened. Does anyone know if Burke did indeed continue seeing a psychologist/psychiatrist after they moved to Atlanta?[B/]I do.)

I believe Kolar mentions that in a later interview or it may have been one of the many I viewed but IIRC- he stated he is getting by and that BR's psychiatrist prescribed him medication.



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[questfortrue]

Quote Originally Posted by observation View Post
"And they both dismiss the IDI theory and were highly a tune to the information in this case...so, what reason is there to believe the IDI theories you have helped to "provide references to information in Kolar's and ST's books in the past."

Pardon my interruption on this thread, but I chose to reply here instead of on the Who Killed JonBenet thread. Continuing from Observation’s post -

There is no reason to believe IDI theories when using Kolar and ST’s books as a framework for information. The problem lies in the situation that established facts are challenged, subtly distorted, and/or ignored by IDI. An example of this was when the established fact of pineapple was vociferously questioned by IDI. The questioning became ridiculous, and Tricia finally just dumped the entire thread on pineapple. My favorite quote on this problem was expressed by UKGuy - Websleuths does not exist for interlopers to indiscriminately question settled fact and fill threads with patent nonsense querying the validity of past judgements. ( http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...scenarios-from-now-on&p=11930844#post11930844.)

If anyone wants an example of “distortion” or “ignoring” facts from Kolar’s book, one doesn’t have to go any further than the thread on DNA or tDNA. A casual reader would not know what the details of this are and might believe the distorted facts. Personally, I find that a dishonest tactic to refute information, and I attempt to avoid discussions which give someone the opportunity to distort information. It’s one thing for anyone to have a theory which no one can really disprove. It’s quite another to refute or distort established facts like pineapple or location of tDNA from the books by the two detectives. imo

 

[Annapurna]

otg

I remember reading that thread about the cord strangulation. I was surprised to hear Kolar say that he didn't believe the bruise could be caused by it. I'll admit that I took him at his word as a professional investigator. It is easier to form a coherent theory if the bruise was simply caused by the cord. Then you don't have to factor in a previous strangulation.

 

[observation]

IIRC- Kolar's states she was grabbed by the shirt collar and felt that was the reason for the reddened mark. She later was strangled by the garrote. I finally finished his book which I found be amazing.


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[otg]

Back in January of this year, I mentioned in a post in this thread that I was working on a poem for Christmas. After I finished it, I posted it at FFJ. But for the benefit of those who don’t read there (and since I mentioned it here at WS), I’m posting it here as well.



‘Twas the Day After Christmas
(with apologies to Clement Clarke Moore)

‘Twas the day after Christmas, when all through my house
Not a person was rested, not even my spouse.
The staging was finished, it was all done with care,
In fear that the cops would soon be right there.

Our last child was nestled all snug in his bed,
With the fear of prison that I’d put in his head.
With Pats in her “last nights” and I in my drawers,
We had just called the cops with me on all fours.

In less than ten minutes there came such a crowd,
I couldn’t believe it -- that house got so loud!
To the front door went Patsy to greet the first cop,
So much left to do, but we just had to stop.

The look on his face made me think he could see
That something was wrong (but he had nothing on me).
Patsy’s splayed fingers across her damn face
Made him think that something was just out of place.

The truth had been something we just had to bend,
And I feared all that morning that this was our end.
More people had come in response to our pleas
.(Had we dotted our i’s and crossed all our t’s?)

First Fleet and Priscilla, then John and Bar,
Everyone came from near and from far.
There was Linda and Rick, and Reichenbach too;
Whitson and Mason and others we knew;

Patterson, Walker, Weiss, and Barcklow,
And with Victim Advocates Reverend Rol was in tow.
So all through the house they puzzled this ruse --
.Our friends and the dicks and even the blues.

Soon time had passed with no kidnapper’s call,
So I slipped away silently to go check it all.
I finished it up to wait for detection;
All that I needed was some minor correction.

She was wrapped up all tight like an Indian papoose,
Her favorite blanket and her neck had a noose,
Her hands overhead were tied really loose
.-- All this and more just to hide the abuse.

Her eyes and her neck had little red dots.
.(I hoped that no one thought I could tie knots.)
On her mouth was laying a small piece of tape;
All in all, she was in really bad shape.

A piece of a paintbrush tied into the staging;
After all, you know, this was war we were waging.
I had to protect my loved ones still living;
I did everything with no thought of misgiving.

She was cheerful and happy -- a joy to us all;
And now she was gone -- what a karmic curve ball!
Back on the first floor Linda said, “Look.”
What’s this kind of copwork? This ain’t by the book.

I spoke not a word, but went straight to my work.
This cop’s not a genius; in fact, she’s a jerk!
We thumbed our noses that day at the world,
While suspicions of us from that day on swirled.

We got on with our lives, to hell with them all.
Even Hunter agreed we deserved a privacy wall.
But now I can say to the old and the young:
.“By threat of lawsuit, if you know -- hold your tongue!”


(Merry Christmas, everyone.)

 

[UKGuy]

(rsbm)Where do you read into anything he says that she was "manually strangled" as well as being ligature asphyxiated?

I don't see any signs of manual strangulation in the photos we have, no one with access to other information has said that it happened, and I don't see how you can read that into what Kolar said.

otg,
With due respect, I have always maintained that JonBenet was manually and ligature asphyxiated, conjecturing that the ligature use arose because the head trauma failed to yield visible signs of death?

James Kolar in his reddit AMA talk, said:

Det. Smit didn’t appear to take into consideration the forensic opinions rendered about the sequencing of injuries. Based upon my review of those theories, it is my belief that the fingernail marks on JBR’s throat were created when the collar of her shirt was pulled tight around her neck, at the same time that the triangular shaped bruise was formed on the front her neck. Next came the blow to her head that rendered her unconscious.

The garrote could not have been responsible for the triangular bruising, and was applied some period of time later, when JBR was unconscious and unable to struggle against the placement of the cord.

I don’t believe the strangulation with the cord was a part of staging, and its use constituted an underlying part of the motivation involved in the assault on JBR. A more complete analysis of the sequencing of the injuries was offered in Chapter 6 of the book.

If you dissect John Ramseys sequencing of events, the intruder(s) remained in the home far beyond the 30 minutes bracketing the estimated time of JBR’s death.

Kolar does not think use of the ligature represented staging, so I cede to his informed view, although he has yet to expand fully on what he thought the motivation was for the assault on JonBenet and why the ligature played a central role?

.

 

[DeeDee249]

I've never seen fingernail marks mentioned in the autopsy report, nor is there mention of any manual strangulation. The supposed fingernail marks were noted as petechiae, commonly found in ligature strangulation. No mention of any other strangulation other than ligature strangulation is made. I know there were police present at the autopsy, but Kolar was not one of them. I would not consider pulling a shirt collar tight a manual strangulation, nor did the coroner. That is only conjecture, as we do not know for sure that this occurred. We DO know a ligature was found, deeply imbedded in her throat. The large red triangular mark is often seen on the throat of strangulation victims, and represents a pressure point under which blood has pooled. There are photos out there of other strangulation victims with the same kind of mark.

 

[UKGuy]

I've never seen fingernail marks mentioned in the autopsy report, nor is there mention of any manual strangulation. The supposed fingernail marks were noted as petechiae, commonly found in ligature strangulation. No mention of any other strangulation other than ligature strangulation is made. I know there were police present at the autopsy, but Kolar was not one of them. I would not consider pulling a shirt collar tight a manual strangulation, nor did the coroner. That is only conjecture, as we do not know for sure that this occurred. We DO know a ligature was found, deeply imbedded in her throat. The large red triangular mark is often seen on the throat of strangulation victims, and represents a pressure point under which blood has pooled. There are photos out there of other strangulation victims with the same kind of mark.

DeeDee249,
Presumably the manual strangulation never led directly to asphyxiation. It was possibly more of a restraining tactic?

Looking at Lou Smit's picture http://www.acandyrose.com/jonbenetneck.jpg there seems to be more than simple blood pooling going on beneath circumferential ligature, on the left side of the picture, as it faces you, there are obvious abrasions, the petichial hemorrages appear directly above and below the circumferential ligature, seen much better here: http://www.acandyrose.com/jonbenetneckgarrote.jpg, the abrasions are more evident here: http://www.acandyrose.com/jonbenetfaceright.jpg, and what appears to be fingernail marks which are located towards the bottom left of the picture and between the circumferential ligature and the lower red abrasion mark, there might three or four fingernail marks, depending how you interpret the image?

There are photos out there of other strangulation victims with the same kind of mark.

I agree with your analysis and am not seeking confirmation regarding the pooling mark its just that I see more going on than a straight forward ligature asphyxiation, especially in the jonbenetfaceright image.

.

 

[DeeDee249]

DeeDee249,
Presumably the manual strangulation never led directly to asphyxiation. It was possibly more of a restraining tactic?

Looking at Lou Smit's picture http://www.acandyrose.com/jonbenetneck.jpg there seems to be more than simple blood pooling going on beneath circumferential ligature, on the left side of the picture, as it faces you, there are obvious abrasions, the petichial hemorrages appear directly above and below the circumferential ligature, seen much better here: http://www.acandyrose.com/jonbenetneckgarrote.jpg, the abrasions are more evident here: http://www.acandyrose.com/jonbenetfaceright.jpg, and what appears to be fingernail marks which are located towards the bottom left of the picture and between the circumferential ligature and the lower red abrasion mark, there might three or four fingernail marks, depending how you interpret the image?


I agree with your analysis and am not seeking confirmation regarding the pooling mark its just that I see more going on than a straight forward ligature asphyxiation, especially in the jonbenetfaceright image.

.

Keep in mind that blood that has pooled under the skin of a 12-hours old CORPSE will have a very different appearance than in a living or newly dead person. The mark would have an almost papery-crepey look to it, and since circulation had ended with the last beat of her heart, the blood would no longer move around under there. It would have "set" (gelled, actually) and the whole area would have an almost dried, papery look and feel, which is why the coroner described it as an "abrasion". Ditto the round marks on her cheek and back. In a written autopsy report, the coroner will describe what he SEES and not comment at that time as to what he THINKS about it or what he feels might have caused it. That part would come in possible orally recorded or written notes on the autopsy, or comments to those LE present or at a later time. As we know, Mayer's only comment about his findings on the vaginal injuries were made verbally to Detectives Arndt and Trujillo, who were both present at the autopsy and witnessed first-hand the dissection of her body, including the coroner's shock at discovering the huge hole and crack in her skull. His comments on the vaginal injuries were that they were likely caused by digital penetration. It is because this ONE comment was not actually written in the report (because it did not belong there) is the reason why we have so many who refuse to accept the FACT that this little girl was being molested (repeatedly, as some of the injuries were not from that day) by someone she knew, and NOT by some random intruder or "small foreign faction", neither of whom would have had PRIOR access to her.

 

[Annapurna]

In regards to the abrasions on her neck, it is also important to factor in the necklace that was tangled into the ligature. This would have scratched her skin. There was a small cross on the necklace (this can be seen in the last picture of JB & PR), which could have also caused scratch marks.

I do see that one scratch that appears similar to what you'd expect from a fingernail scratch. It's possible.

 

[AndHence]

It's been a while since I've read Kolar's book, but I seem to recall him saying that the fingernail marks were believed to be caused by JonBenet trying to loosen the pulled shirt collar from around her neck.

 

[SapphireSteel]

Where else would you have heard it from besides Thomas or Kolar? These guys are the only guys that had access to everything. Do you honestly think Kolar would risk his reputation by making things up? Especially a somewhat insignificant piece of evidence?

if you have a link supporting the excrement theory Before Kolar, can you please provide?

TIA

 

[DeeDee249]

In regards to the abrasions on her neck, it is also important to factor in the necklace that was tangled into the ligature. This would have scratched her skin. There was a small cross on the necklace (this can be seen in the last picture of JB & PR), which could have also caused scratch marks.

I do see that one scratch that appears similar to what you'd expect from a fingernail scratch. It's possible.

Not likely, though. Nearly every expert agrees that the head bash came first- she was rendered instantly unconscious and probably comatose soon after. She would have collapsed instantly- she would have never been conscious to struggle while being strangled- she would not have been able to try to remove the ligature or whatever else may have been used. It there IS a fingernail mark, I'd bet the rent it isn't hers. Anyone who has seen the autopsy photos and seen that horrific hole in her head with a large crack half way around would understand how unlikely it is that she would have been aware she was being strangled (mercifully).

 

[andreww]

if you have a link supporting the excrement theory Before Kolar, can you please provide?

TIA

Why? You think Kolar is lying? And, do you think we are privy to every single piece of evidence in this case? We aren't. So just because you've never heard it before, doesn't make it a lie.

Furthermore, it seems to me that I was aware of the feces smeared chocolate long before Kolar's book was ever published, so it must have been said by someone.


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[UKGuy]

Why? You think Kolar is lying? And, do you think we are privy to every single piece of evidence in this case? We aren't. So just because you've never heard it before, doesn't make it a lie.

Furthermore, it seems to me that I was aware of the feces smeared chocolate long before Kolar's book was ever published, so it must have been said by someone.


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andreww,
From memory issues regarding excrement were related by an earlier housekeeper, and LHP who referred to some incident, regarding grapefruit size faeces on JonBenet's bed?

.

 

[TeaTime]

If someone pulled her by her shirt collar (although it was a collarless tee shirt) tight enough to cause bruising, the shirt collar would have been pulled out of shape and wrinkled/twisted in some way. Was it?

 

[Annapurna]

The suggestion TeaTime, is that she was wearing the red turtleneck found balled up in her bathroom. ST said it was wet.