RDI Theories & Discussion ONLY!

[andreww]

Is the flashlight the murder weapon? No clue. All I can say is that if the head blow happened in the basement, then the flashlight becomes a more likely weapon. The basement IMO just seems too cluttered and confined to fully swing a bat or a golf club. I can see the kids down there , snooping for gifts, and using the flashlight to get around. Who knows?


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[cynic]

I cannot answer your questions, but I read some incredible work done by otg on this site regarding the shape of the fracture and the candidates for weapon. I am sorry I cannot point you to it but perhaps he can or someone else?

For those of you struggling to see the viability of the Maglite flashlight producing the injury to JonBenet in the manner in which Dr. Werner Spitz suggests – I don’t blame you.
His argument might be understood if made exclusively on the basis of a non-conforming breakage pattern, unique and non-reproducible, a one-time only event that happened to JonBenet given some peculiar characteristics and perhaps defects in her skull at the impact location.
But, and an important “but,” Dr. Spitz doesn’t make such a statement. He makes it seem as if it would be readily reproducible and not only given the characteristics native to bone in a human skull but also Styrofoam.

LC: The size and shape of the fracture was so distinctive, Spitz decided to conduct his own tests, re-enacting the injury.
Dr.WS: You could do it on Styrofoam, you could do it on cardboard, you could do it on bone. I did it on all three.
LC: Published reports this week, speculate a baseball bat, found outside the house, might be the murder weapon. Spitz's tests lead him to a weapon inside the house.
Dr.WS: I would certainly believe that the flashlight is the instrument of death.
LC: What makes you so sure that it's compatible? How do you know?
Dr.WS: Because it fits right into the hole. It doesn't fit into the defect where it leaves some area to play with. It fits perfectly.
Discovery News
3/18/2000
Narrator: Lyn Cannon
Guest: Forensic pathologist Dr. Werner Spitz

That is just simply untrue. You can take a Maglite, as I have, and make an impression (with the lens-end as per Dr. Spitz) on Styrofoam, or cardboard, a million times without leaving anything remotely resembling what is pictured in the autopsy photo.
The shape consistently obtained is that of half of an ellipse.

Links for more information - including OTG’s work:
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?194041-JonBenet-s-Skull-Fractures-The-Weapon
http://www.forumsforjustice.org/for...d-on-JonBenet-s-skull-golf-club-or-flashlight

Dr. Spitz striking a replica skull with the lens-end of a Maglite flashlight to illustrate his theory:

 

[Ellie9]

Is the flashlight the murder weapon? No clue. All I can say is that if the head blow happened in the basement, then the flashlight becomes a more likely weapon. The basement IMO just seems too cluttered and confined to fully swing a bat or a golf club. I can see the kids down there , snooping for gifts, and using the flashlight to get around. Who knows?


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I'm wondering about snooping for gifts, though. They already got all their gifts. That other stuff was for other people. Is snooping at gifts meant for adults and extended family a thing? I've never heard of it.

I agree with you that it seems unlikely someone would swing a bat or golf club down in that cluttered basement and not break tons of things in the process - or leave evidence of damage. I'm not sure where the head blow took place.

Could there be another reason for snooping around with a flashlight besides gifts, I wonder?

I still can't help but to wonder if this happened very soon after arriving back home. I.E. between 9:45 and 11pm. She only ate so little pineapple - it could be that something interrupted her. A fight perhaps.

 

[icedtea4me]

*snip*

I still can't help but to wonder if this happened very soon after arriving back home. I.E. between 9:45 and 11pm. She only ate so little pineapple - it could be that something interrupted her. A fight perhaps.

The pineapple was also said to have been poorly chewed (or something to that effect). It seems to me that it's possible she sensed something was "in the air" and didn't have much of an appetite.

 

[Annapurna]

I'm wondering about snooping for gifts, though. They already got all their gifts. That other stuff was for other people. Is snooping at gifts meant for adults and extended family a thing? I've never heard of it.

I agree with you that it seems unlikely someone would swing a bat or golf club down in that cluttered basement and not break tons of things in the process - or leave evidence of damage. I'm not sure where the head blow took place.

Could there be another reason for snooping around with a flashlight besides gifts, I wonder?

I still can't help but to wonder if this happened very soon after arriving back home. I.E. between 9:45 and 11pm. She only ate so little pineapple - it could be that something interrupted her. A fight perhaps.

Like a window perhaps?

You make a really good point about the gifts. They had just gotten mountains of presents.
http://http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51kjlKrq-WL._SX382_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

This is a small picture but it's the only copy of it I can find. It's the cover of a book Lou Smit contributed to. Look at all those toys! A (blue*) bike, a nintendo! What else could they be looking for?

I strongly suspect that the "special visit from santa" was in reference to Charlevoix where they would open gifts with the rest of the family.

The children woke up early. Around 6am IIRC, maybe a little later but still early morning. That's a long day for these kids! You would think they would be too tired to explore and snoop.

Kolar thinks whatever happened started in the breakfast room. Maybe you're right. I think that makes more sense than getting up after they were already in bed. Kolar also believes that the cord was intentional, not staging.

I always leave this forum with even more questions than I had before! This is why we keep coming back I suppose.









*Can someone who has Death of Innocence tell me: didn't they say her bike was pink? It's obviously a minor detail, but I think it would further evidence how they twist the details to fit a story.

 

[Fides]

This could be an interpretation on Schiller's part. It could be an inference because there were no prints. Or the batteries were factory inserted. I'm not saying its impossible, just that it sounds unlikely.

The only way this was wiped down is if it was part of the staging. If this is the case then was it really part of the crime? Why would someone use that as staging? Why not leave it in the basement to associate it with the body? Surely JAR would recognize it, so wouldn't they think of that?

Its just such a strange thing to do if it was indeed intended to be a part of staging. PR wasn't a neat freak by any means so I can't picture her doing that somewhat absently or in a frantic cleaning spree. Who would ever think of that? I'm going to have to go back into the interviews to see what they said about this.

I just really don't think it was the murder weapon. Its only 2.5 pounds, that's pretty light. Its short so the amount of leverage required would be pretty great. This would imply that it really only could have been an adult, to account for enough height, swing and force. I just don't see how an adult would be in a situation where they whack a little girl with all their might with a flashlight of all things.

The wiped flashlight fits with my theory of a quirky, methodical child as the first stager. A child who had enough information about crime scenes to make a go of staging one, but not enough to be credible.

I have wondered if BR was in the kitchen wiping the flashlight when he was discovered by his mother, and that was why it was left on the counter. The jig was up.

 

[TeaTime]

Although I have never thought the flashlight was the weapon, Steve Thomas thinks it was and he knows a lot more than me. I recall a scene from a movie where one criminal is instructing another about wiping down all the flashlight batteries before they go out to commit the crime, in case one loses the flashlight at the scene. I just cannot recall the movie.

The skull fracture is not from being thrown into something, in my opinion. It is from being struck with a great deal of force. Looking at the photos above in which the flashlight is positioned precisely to recreate the pattern of the dislodged bone, the flashlight is at a nearly 45 degree angle to the head. The position of the flashlight suggests an overhead swing rather than a side swing.. Try this at home and see how short the overhead swing is to reach the 45 degree angle. For me it is right at chest level. Therefore, my theory is that JBR was chest high to the person who swung the flashlight.

Unless both JBR and the person swinging the flashlight were sitting, (unlikely) or JBR standing and the person sitting, (unlikely)or JBR on a bar stool as the other stood, (maybe) seems that PR and JR can be eliminated because they are too tall.

Just my opinion du jour. I can always change my mind.

 

[andreww]

Like a window perhaps?

You make a really good point about the gifts. They had just gotten mountains of presents.
http://http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51kjlKrq-WL._SX382_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

This is a small picture but it's the only copy of it I can find. It's the cover of a book Lou Smit contributed to. Look at all those toys! A (blue*) bike, a nintendo! What else could they be looking for?

I strongly suspect that the "special visit from santa" was in reference to Charlevoix where they would open gifts with the rest of the family.

The children woke up early. Around 6am IIRC, maybe a little later but still early morning. That's a long day for these kids! You would think they would be too tired to explore and snoop.

Kolar thinks whatever happened started in the breakfast room. Maybe you're right. I think that makes more sense than getting up after they were already in bed. Kolar also believes that the cord was intentional, not staging.

I always leave this forum with even more questions than I had before! This is why we keep coming back I suppose.









*Can someone who has Death of Innocence tell me: didn't they say her bike was pink? It's obviously a minor detail, but I think it would further evidence how they twist the details to fit a story.

Not sure why people are so shocked at Kolar's assertion that the garrotte was not staging? This is what eventually killed her, why would anyone believe that it was staging?

That is why I always say that technically there is no BDI, because even if it was Burke who clubbed her over the head, the evidence shows that it was likely one of the parents who finished the job.


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[andreww]

The wiped flashlight fits with my theory of a quirky, methodical child as the first stager. A child who had enough information about crime scenes to make a go of staging one, but not enough to be credible.

I have wondered if BR was in the kitchen wiping the flashlight when he was discovered by his mother, and that was why it was left on the counter. The jig was up.

No way. Burke would have acted like any other 9 year old and simply dropped everything and run away to the safety of his room.

I'm convinced that the flashlight was intentionally left out as evidence of an intruder. I'd love to know if the Ramsey's were asked about it by initial responders and what their response was. I guess that they would have denied ownership.


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[andreww]

Anybody ever notice how when one IDI disappears, they all disappear?

Just saying.:thinking:

 

[InstantProof]

I'm wondering about snooping for gifts, though. They already got all their gifts. That other stuff was for other people. Is snooping at gifts meant for adults and extended family a thing? I've never heard of it.

When I was a kid I would look through the name tags on the after Christmas gifts still in the house to see if my parents forgot to give me any with my name on it. Sometimes kids think they are smarter than their parents.
As for the flashlight, my thinking is they were concerned a neighbor would report seeing someone in the house using a flashlight (and someone did report moving lights) and someone thought it was better to leave it out without fingerprints and act like it's not theirs.

 

[Ellie9]

Anybody ever notice how when one IDI disappears, they all disappear?

Just saying.:thinking:

Yes this is strange. Maybe they don't hang around this board. Maybe they are just a small group?

 

[Ellie9]

When I was a kid I would look through the name tags on the after Christmas gifts still in the house to see if my parents forgot to give me any with my name on it. Sometimes kids think they are smarter than their parents.
As for the flashlight, my thinking is they were concerned a neighbor would report seeing someone in the house using a flashlight (and someone did report moving lights) and someone thought it was better to leave it out without fingerprints and act like it's not theirs.

Good thoughts. I think the flashlight theory you present is actually really plausible. The R's do seem concerned about what neighbours would know or think.

 

[andreww]

Yes this is strange. Maybe they don't hang around this board. Maybe they are just a small group?

More likely one person with sock puppet accounts.

Or John Ramsey's holiday party ran long.

 

[andreww]

Good thoughts. I think the flashlight theory you present is actually really plausible. The R's do seem concerned about what neighbours would know or think.

I think they actually used the flashlight. I think they were concerned that a neighbour would notice lights being on at the time when the Ramsey's were all supposedly sleeping. If a nosey neighbour sees a flashlight, its only more evidence of an intruder.

 

[Ellie9]

I think they actually used the flashlight. I think they were concerned that a neighbour would notice lights being on at the time when the Ramsey's were all supposedly sleeping. If a nosey neighbour sees a flashlight, its only more evidence of an intruder.

Agreed too.. either way, there are at least two great reasons why the R's would want the flashlight visible and not to hide it.

 

[andreww]

And the fact that they pointed nothing out to LE. For instance, there is a strange flashlight in the kitchen in plain view, but nobody says "why is that there?". Similarly there is a Santa Bear on JBs bed that nobody has ever seen before, but nobody says anything. The unlatched and open window? John says nothing. The suitcase pushed under the window? You guessed it, crickets. In their interviews they were adamant that those things didn't belong there, so why not say something on Dec 26?

 

[BBB167893]

Yes SuperDave, me too. I imagine an overly tired child and mom, a bed wetting accident and a child being shaken and jerked by her shirt collar. JonBenet crying and fighting Patsy. I imagine Patsy picking up JonBenet and throwing her into the bathroom to be cleaned up. Being thrown into a wall with a sharp edge and with force might be like getting hit hard on the head. Your idea is thought provoking too. What do you imagine her head hit in the bed? I believe the accident occurred with Patsy and John was messing with her as a separate occurrence. I think the vaginal injuries that night were staging.

Well, Teresa, it works like this: if what I said is right--and who knows if it is?--her head could have struck the headboard, the adjacent wall, or maybe even a dresser edge.

You're right about one thing: devastating head injuries can occur from the head striking a stationary object just as much as from being struck. The classic example would be why car airbags were invented.

 

[Annapurna]

TeaTime, Thomas actually beleives she was thrown into something, like the edge of a tub or something similar.

Andreww, I don't find that surprising at all. It is wayyyy too far to be merely staging, IMO. The question that remains of course is who and why.

If it was B, I assert that it may have been a control type device. Likely not tight at first but more of a leash. Kids do dumb dangerous stuff like that sometimes without knowing. He could have tied up his leash somewhere high. Something happened and he hits her with something, she falls and the cord tightens. If it was not all the way tightened it could explain the time between the blow and strangulation. Her heart would have been beating very lightly and her neck could have swollen which deepened the furrow. I'm not a doctor of course, so IDK if that is how that works.

If it was PR or JR, it was staging that unfortunately turned murder weapon. Is that what you mean?

 

[andreww]

TeaTime, Thomas actually beleives she was thrown into something, like the edge of a tub or something similar.

Andreww, I don't find that surprising at all. It is wayyyy too far to be merely staging, IMO. The question that remains of course is who and why.

If it was B, I assert that it may have been a control type device. Likely not tight at first but more of a leash. Kids do dumb dangerous stuff like that sometimes without knowing. He could have tied up his leash somewhere high. Something happened and he hits her with something, she falls and the cord tightens. If it was not all the way tightened it could explain the time between the blow and strangulation. Her heart would have been beating very lightly and her neck could have swollen which deepened the furrow. I'm not a doctor of course, so IDK if that is how that works.

If it was PR or JR, it was staging that unfortunately turned murder weapon. Is that what you mean?

What I mean is, one of the Ramsey's hit her hard with something and she wasn't in very good shape. Probably eyes open, unresponsive and possibly making strange noises. At this point the decision is made to kill her, probably for three reasons; 1) to protect one of them from going to jail 2) to spare the family embarrassment 3) and sadly, because Patsy didn't want to spend the rest of her days caring for a brain dead vegetable. So they decided to go all in and finish the job and use the garrotte. This is likely the reason for the long period of time that passed between the head blow and the strangling. The Ramseys may have been monsters but it was still a heavy decision to make.

So basically my previous statement that BDI was highly unlikely, odds have it that the strangulation was intentional and likely carried out by one of the parents (IMO Patsy). Burke may have been the catalyst in what happened, but IMO the murderer it probably Patsy.