Reasons why you think it could be suicide

[DeDee]

<snip>
I find it ironic to criticize RZ for having permanent make-up. Lots and lots of women do it, and in fact most of the salons/spas/med offices that sold/injected Medicis products (Dysport, Perlane, Restylane etc) also offered PERMANENT MAKEUP. (scroll down on the right side of the screen facial & skin transformations) http://www.cflwellness.com/dysport.html
<little snip>
I find it increasingly ironic for anyone to criticize RZ for cosmetic enhancements, ya know the old saying, "Fox smells his own hole first."

My post regarding RZ's tattooed make-up was not meant as an aspersion but to point out that there could be medical reasons for its usage.

Certainly, for many various reasons, many have taken advantage of beauty enhancement practices such as having breast augmentation, Botox or Restylane injections, tattooed eyebrows, tattooed eyeliner and tattooed lip liner, although that is quite painful and I, personally, find nothing wrong with any of it.

<modsnip>


imoo

 

[Betty P]

My post regarding RZ's tattooed make-up was not meant as an aspersion but to point out that there could be medical reasons for its usage.

Certainly, for many various reasons, many have taken advantage of beauty enhancement practices such as having breast augmentation, Botox or Restylane injections, tattooed eyebrows, tattooed eyeliner and tattooed lip liner, although that is quite painful and I, personally, find nothing wrong with any of it.

<modsnip>




imoo

<Mod Snip> Extensive interviews w/ those who knew and interacted w/ RZ said she was a calm, psychologically well adjusted person who was in perfect health. Her autopsy report showed none of the bizarre symptoms that you tossed into this forum.

 

[SweetT]

Do people who don't live with you and haven't lived with you for yrs really know who or what you are or what your capable of? Lots of folks think someone they know is fine/normal nice and then we find out they were not who everyone thought they were, or capable of being. We see this nearly every day around here.

 

[Betty P]

Do people who don't live with you and haven't lived with you for yrs really know who or what you are or what your capable of? Lots of folks think someone they know is fine/normal nice and then we find out they were not who everyone thought they were, or capable of being. We see this nearly every day around here.

If you're referring to strange speculation that RZ had some psychological illness that caused her to pull her own hair out, the witnesses who testified to her well balanced personality were those who had recently interacted with her. There's also an autopsy report that failed to find any physical evidence that she was in the habit of pulling out her hair.

WRT the hair found on the shower wall, Occam's Razor applies - a clump of her hair was found in the shower likely because she was attacked by someone in the shower who dragged her out and later killed her and staged it to look like suicide.

 

[bourne]

Do people who don't live with you and haven't lived with you for yrs really know who or what you are or what your capable of? Lots of folks think someone they know is fine/normal nice and then we find out they were not who everyone thought they were, or capable of being. We see this nearly every day around here.

One would believe so, don't you think? People who live/interacted with you would certainly be in a much better position than say -- absolute strangers -- to "know" you, right?

 

[SweetT]

If you're referring to strange speculation that RZ had some psychological illness that caused her to pull her own hair out, the witnesses who testified to her well balanced personality were those who had recently interacted with her. There's also an autopsy report that failed to find any physical evidence that she was in the habit of pulling out her hair.

WRT the hair found on the shower wall, Occam's Razor applies - a clump of her hair was found in the shower likely because she was attacked by someone in the shower who dragged her out and later killed her and staged it to look like suicide.

No I wasnt referring to any illness just in general. Like the dude that held those girls hostage, his family and friends never knew this side of him.

 

[SweetT]

One would believe so, don't you think? People who live/interacted with you would certainly be in a much better position than say -- absolute strangers -- to "know" you, right?

Sometimes only the people who live with you really know you, and sometimes even that is no guarantee. We see cases all the time like that.

 

[shefner]

I find the whole suicide idea implausible.
I have tried to reason it out...and suicide might seem like the answer right off the bat. After all, the situation with Max was overwhelming and in the best of cases, people blame themselves.
However, she gave no indication at all. And the extensive work that was done to create this suicide would have been all-consuming. Yes, the scenario was possible but difficult. And re-creating is not enough and doesn't give us the full effect of what happened that night. After all, RZ had to come up with all of this on her own. So I find that near to impossible with what we know.

 

[SweetT]

I can see reasons to believe this could have been a suicide. Since that is what this thread is about I can give some reasons why I believe it could be, even though I am on the fence on this one.
Rebecca quit her job to stay home and take care of Max's kids. Well apparently that wasn't working out for her so well. She was supposedly not getting along with the teen kids and was even thinking of leaving Jonah if he didn't have her back with those kids. (My guess is that was never going to happen). Then you have conflicting stories about her relationship with Max. Some people saying they were close, she loved him like a son and others, If you want to take into account some of Dina's accounts say he was afraid of her. She was strict, he didn't like her coming to his events, he would cry, she policed his food etc etc etc.
Then the terrible accident with Max when he was on her watch, which Dina was already critical of him being alone with her. She knew this was devastating and ultimately everything she had taken off work to do was now a total waste of time. She had not succeeded in staying home with the kids and making anything good of it. In fact she was even arguing with Jonah over the teen aged kids and making ultimatums. To me if you are a perfectionist, or even just someone who tends to want to do things right then this is a Big Fail!
Seriously it would suck to quit your job to take care of some kids and then totally fail at it to the point one of the kids died on your watch. I don't care who you are unless you are totally devoid of emotions this would have to bother you.
I do think that sometime during all this comotion that Jonah let her know that he was finished with her, either expected her to move out or in some way communicated to her that they were over. Not coming home at night when he could have is certainly an unspoken way to let that be known.
Now she has no job, she is used to being taken care of in a pretty nice way and the whole world of hers is closing in on her. She also most likely has a pretty upset mother to deal with to boot that wants some answers and maybe she has none, maybe she knows they will push and push and she just cannot take it any longer. Maybe she and Jonah had some harsh words and she is mad that he will not believe her and she feels rejected and hopeless perhaps he has told her in no uncertain terms it is over.
That would mean she has lost everything important to her. So she possibly is angry, very angry and she wants to make it look like Jonah killed her. So she goes through all this scenerio and plays it out, down to the writing on the door. She hangs herself in an area where she knows she will be found by Jonahs brother, because if she hangs herself indoors it may be days before she is found since Jonah isn't coming home regularly and she doesn't know when or if he will be back.
She's mad, she's depressed, she has a lack of hope for the future and wants to pay him back in some weird fashion.
She knows he admires her body, so she decides to be naked, to somehow punish him to show him that she is not his in some way.
Maybe the argument had occurred the day before so she had time to look on the computer for ways to harm herself, or to make it appear that someone else had looked these things up. Maybe she wanted revenge for making her feel the way she felt, and the best revenge would be to have it appear she was murdered and to have Jonah be accused of it. Maybe this way she would feel some justice. Maybe she didn't care who got fingered for it, as long as it was Dina or Jonah both of which she may have hated by then.
These are just thoughts, as the thread was why do you think it could have been suicide. These are just some reasons why I feel it could be suicide. I know from previous depressive episodes myself that these kind of thoughts can run through your head when you are mad, upset, grieving and feeling hopeless. Just because someone has never been diagnosed with depression or other problems does not mean they don't have some. I know when you are in these type of states, that there seems to be no hope and sometimes common sense will not take hold.
I had a friend who committed suicide by hanging and she was also nude. I also know that she had fought with her new husband and she was very upset with him. She also was a very beautiful woman. I knew they had argued quite a bit prior to marriage as I would hear her at work on the phone with this man. He would upset her quite a bit, but I never imagined she would ever kill herself in fact none of us at work ever saw that one coming. We were all quite shocked. But I do feel she was trying to give her husband a message by being nude and I do know she was mad at him that night. I just have to guess that maybe he was jealous and it was her way of pissing him off by being naked. Just a guess.
Thats my 2 cents.

 

[*Lash*]

FWIW - Rebecca's parents also have a young son. IIRC, he is just a bit older than XZ. So how does he calculate into all of this? In my opinion, it shows Rebecca's parents continued to have children late in their lives. Unless you want to believe their young son was also Rebecca's child.

This poem was written by Becky and Mary&#8217;s younger brother for a high school class. The family still is not doing well dealing with Becky&#8217;s death, Tommy,&#8221; said Doug. I had known Rebecca for four years, she would always come to visit Mary for the holidays.

http://highlighthollywood.com/2011/...clusive-interview-with-zahaus-brother-in-law/

 

[coastal]

What stops me from believing Rebecca's death was a suicide is the complete disconnect between all of the theories of why she did it. Was she unable to handle the grief? Or, was she afraid of being investigated for Max's murder? Was it guilt? Was it rage, because Jonah dumped her? Did she want to humiliate Jonah, for some reason, and she did it this way because she was into kinky sex with him? Did she think she was re-enacting a bad film noir? Was she really trying to make it look like she was murdered? No, she did it because she had a pathology of some kind, some personality defect that made her tattoo strange curves on her forehead...

Please. None of that makes sense. Not one bit of any of those theories makes sense, damnit! If Rebecca killed Maxie, why wasn't she satisfied? Surely she'd have had a motive for that. And, while she hadn't quite been successful...she got pretty damned close, and it looked like Max would die. So why not wait to see her plan through? Why would she kill herself only halfway to her goal?

There just isn't any way to twist the known facts into any scenario that makes sense of suicide. Not logical sense, not psychological sense, not intuitive sense. Non sense.

 

[screecher]

... a 6yo child who was left in her care...

imoo[/COLOR]

snipped

Ah, so you obviously think no one besides Rebecca and her sister were there with Maxie. Exactly what hard evidence are you privy to that you are able to state the above?

Do tell! I await with bated breath.

 

[*Lash*]

The sherriff's office effectively shut up the Zahau lawyers after they released the info about the 20 searches for "raped, sexy Asian girls, and bondage anime" found on Rebecca's computer.


imoo

BBM - Again, with the exact number of searches. 20? This is the second time a reference has been made with an exact number. Unless you're an insider, this is a detail that has not been released.

 

[screecher]

What stops me from believing Rebecca's death was a suicide is the complete disconnect between all of the theories of why she did it. Was she unable to handle the grief? Or, was she afraid of being investigated for Max's murder? Was it guilt? Was it rage, because Jonah dumped her? Did she want to humiliate Jonah, for some reason, and she did it this way because she was into kinky sex with him? Did she think she was re-enacting a bad film noir? Was she really trying to make it look like she was murdered? No, she did it because she had a pathology of some kind, some personality defect that made her tattoo strange curves on her forehead...

Please. None of that makes sense. Not one bit of any of those theories makes sense, damnit! If Rebecca killed Maxie, why wasn't she satisfied? Surely she'd have had a motive for that. And, while she hadn't quite been successful...she got pretty damned close, and it looked like Max would die. So why not wait to see her plan through? Why would she kill herself only halfway to her goal?

There just isn't any way to twist the known facts into any scenario that makes sense of suicide. Not logical sense, not psychological sense, not intuitive sense. Non sense.

Oh. Wait. I'm pretty sure one theory is/was Rebecca wanted the ex-wife out, OUT of her and Jonah's life. Yeppers. Soooo, she got a hold of Maxie, smothered him, and when he didn't die, well then she torpedoed him over the railing. Yep, Rebecca did just that. :facepalm:

Oh. Wait. " So why not wait to see her plan through? Why would she kill herself only halfway to her goal?"

Probably because JS called, left voice message for her to get lost.

Oh. Nevermind...there is no hard evidence nor soft evidence he even called her!

 

[K_Z]

BBM
Pardon me, but isn't the incredible lack of good judgment, impulse control and bizarre state of mind most defining of Rebecca.

Another possible impulse control disorder is trichotillomania or the recurrent plucking of one's hair resulting in noticeable hair loss. Did RZ have tattooed eyebrows bc she plucked the hair?

BBM, and snipped for...well, let's call it "focus" on your question. It is a question, from the way you phrased it, even though you chose to end with a period. I don't really think it's defining of Rebecca at all, but thanks for asking!

These are my thoughts and opinions on this, and I'm happy to share what I think with you.

- history of impulse control (throwing oneself on the hood of a moving car, domestic violence, breaking fingers, murder, etc)

- history of incredible lack of good judgment (see above, plus pulling the keys out of a car driven by another person in a fit of rage)

- bizarre state of mind (daily obsessive vendetta attacking and smearing a woman who has been dead 2+ years, among other "bizarre" ideas that indicate state of mind...the excessive use of the word "torpedo" comes to mind.....)

- wears wigs, possibly due to trichotillomania (just sayin'...maybe from the anxiety of being a murderer and worried about being held accountable...that could definitely cause enough anxiety for a person to want to pull their own hair out, IMO)

- extensive use of facial cosmetic aesthetic procedures (possibly due to anxiety from the impulse control problems or anxiety from the trichotillomania, or maybe just "garden variety" narcissism....)

Hmmmmm.....who else fits these descriptions?? Let me think....I know it will come to me....I just have to think about it a little more....

Nope. I don't think these things are defining of Rebecca at all. I really don't. And thanks, again, for asking!

:floorlaugh:

 

[*Lash*]

BBM
She gave no indications? The main reason suicides are successful is bc no one is aware they are about to take place.
IMO, Rebecca began planning her death before or when she searched the internet for anime on her computer sometime on July 11, the day of Maxie's tragic mishap. RZ already was familiar with hangings, bizarre behavior, scaring little boys, glass chandeliers and sexual themes from the movies The Housemaid that was confiscated at the mansion, according to AR's book. She obviously was fairly familiar with a rope. Even one suicide victim in The Housemaid tucks her hair inside the noose just as copycat RZ did with hers.

BBM - The internet searches DID NOT take place on the 11th. Rebecca was murdered early morning on July 13th. The day before would have been July 12th. Once again, there is NO PROOF at this time Rebecca performed these searches. Could you please provide a source showing Rebecca performed these searches along with this twenty something number? Can you provide a source that even states Rebecca watched the Housemaid movie? There is no proof. Unless you believe opinion on another forum is fact.

ETA - In my opinion, if the murderer planted the video they likely would be the copykitten, I mean copycat. Thank you for pointing out that tidbit. I wonder how the murderer found this movie? Maybe an Internet search?

 

[coastal]

No I wasnt referring to any illness just in general. Like the dude that held those girls hostage, his family and friends never knew this side of him.

Interesting that you thought of him; Ariel Castro was found hanging in his jail cell last night. First reports say he committed suicide:

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=221047"]Ariel Castro: Convicted Cleveland kidnapper/rapist found dead in cell - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

 

[Salem]

If you lost a post - it is because it was off topic. I only managed to go back a couple of pages but this thread is a mess.

This is about WHY it might be a suicide. Please keep it relevant and on topic or the thread will close for good.

Salem

 

[DeDee]

BBM - The internet searches DID NOT take place on the 11th. Rebecca was murdered early morning on July 13th. The day before would have been July 12th. Once again, there is NO PROOF at this time Rebecca performed these searches. Could you please provide a source showing Rebecca performed these searches along with this twenty something number? Can you provide a source that even states Rebecca watched the Housemaid movie? There is no proof. Unless you believe opinion on another forum is fact.

ETA - In my opinion, if the murderer planted the video they likely would be the copykitten, I mean copycat. Thank you for pointing out that tidbit. I wonder how the murderer found this movie? Maybe an Internet search?

Thank you, Lash, for catching the erroneous date. You are correct as far as the public is aware; the internet searches using RZ's computer occurred on July 12. I have already sourced elsewhere today the # of searches as AB revealing there were over a dozen sites. However, it doesn't matter so much really bc I hold the opinion that Rebecca was already familiar with bondage.

I can neither affirm nor deny whether or not RZ watched the movie The Housemaid, or which version she viewed, or how many times she viewed the films or which version the detectives confiscated. It was found by LE in the home where she was residing. The point is, I am now familiar with both versions, reviews and comments re: The Housemaid.

*spoiler alert!

• In one scene a small boy is tricked into falling down the stairs in a harrowing murder that appears to be an accident.
• Another scene has a female jumping to her death from a balcony down to the street below.
• In another scene, the lover hangs herself, with her long hair inside the noose, from the glass chandelier, in front of the family including young children, who are sitting below, watching her choke and her body swing, to and fro across the room, when she suddenly ignites herself.

Who thinks of these things?

Asians, according to one study:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2359725/

Five of the 19 young people had some kind of suicide plan one to three days before the suicide attempt.

Pesticides were used by nine subjects, raticide was also used by nine, ..., raticides are cheap and pesticides easily available for purchase in rural areas.

Well, that was a poor example. Being cheap was not an issue for the billionaire's gf; however, I believe she decided, early on, the macabre ideation of being nude while dangling from the balcony outdoors.

Long drop hanging is also the execution method:

http://lostallhope.com/suicide-methods/hanging/drop-hanging

"This is purported to cause very quick, and almost painless (possibly for a millisecond) death by way of fracture-dislocation of the upper neck vertebrae, which crushes or severs the spinal cord leading to immediate unconsciousness (in a matter of milliseconds). The cause of death is asphyxiation, which occurs whilst comatose. Clark reports estimates that brain death will occur in around 6 minutes and whole body death normally within 10-15 minutes. He also mentions that this time is very variable, with official reports of from 3-25 minutes for total death to have occurred."

imo

 

[justice be served]

I can neither affirm nor deny whether or not RZ watched the movie The Housemaid, or which version she viewed, or how many times she viewed the films or which version the detectives confiscated. It was found by LE in the home where she was residing. The point is, I am now familiar with both versions, reviews and comments re: The Housemaid.

*spoiler alert!

• In one scene a small boy is tricked into falling down the stairs in a harrowing murder that appears to be an accident.
• Another scene has a female jumping to her death from a balcony down to the street below.
• In another scene, the lover hangs herself, with her long hair inside the noose, from the glass chandelier, in front of the family including young children, who are sitting below, watching her choke and her body swing, to and fro across the room, when she suddenly ignites herself.

imo

snipped and BBM

I've not seen the movie but thank you for conveying the subject matter.

My question to all is this: If this movie was indeed confiscated in the investigation - why for heaven's sake didn't Sheriff Gore or the other investigators utilize it to bolster their theory of suicide?

Instead, they thinly recreated the rope wizardry, relayed Jonah's late in the evening call telling Rebecca that Max wouldn't make it and stated a very aged recount of Rebecca not eating well. All nonsensical to the degree that the publilc didn't buy their storytelling IMO. Not exactly riveting or compelling evidence.

Could it be that using the film as evidence muddied the waters for their "science doesn't lie" explanation?

And perhaps those in charge of the investigation understood too well that the murderers (oh, sorry, LE probably didn't see the perpetrators as murderers because it was thought Rebecca smothered Max at that point) - that the perpetrators themselves followed the storyline of the film which would have been too obvious to people with half a brain to sort out that an eye-for-an-eye murder happened that night and revenge was had?

Sheriff Gore and his little possey had a story to tell - they just are pretty lousy storytellers and they must believe that their audience is a bunch of idiots which was their first mistake. The cloud of murder will forever hang over this crime because they simply didn't do their job. Good luck to the Zahaus and let the depositions begin!