Rebecca Zahau Wrongful death trial begins. Trial coverage and discussion #3

[BooBooTheFool]

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You tell me. I've never seen a case of suicide result in a civil lawsuit for wrongful death. The Plaintiff insists she was both raped and murdered. The burden of proof is on them. I'm waiting to hear what actual proof there is. All I've heard are multiple, unsubstantiated theories.

You're the one who believes there's "no motive" which is why I was asking you. There often is "no motive" besides opportunity when it comes to rape/murders.

ETA: It's also rare for a woman to commit suicide and be nude.
when a woman is found nude and bound it's usually a sex crime.

 

[justice be served]

Respectfully, the judge refused to grant the defense motion for non-suit. She ruled that there was sufficient evidence presented to allow the jury to decide.

And the judge quoted those specifics that she felt were valid to continue those portions of the Motion for Non-Suit.

 

[justice be served]

A lot of the time "motive" for crimes of opportunity (like sexual assaults that lead to murder) are lacking. There's usually forensic evidence that bolsters the claim. SDSO botched the investigation so badly right from the beginning; especially when it comes to what evidence would've been on RZ's body by leaving it uncovered for hours. With that kind of carelessness you can't in good conscience say that "LE and ME have officially concluded" because they didn't do what they were supposed to do and if they eventually got around to it, in regards to RZ's throat (can't remember if it was her larynx or not but they lost it), they didn't do it properly.. jmo.

Well done.

 

[justice be served]

Imo, you were absolutely spot on in terms of AS being thoroughly rehearsed. Actually, both of these brothers portrayed themselves in the court room with utmost decorum. That’d be expected. Even Caitlin Rother was surprised at the quiet demeanor of JS. It’s RZ the defense wishes to portray as unstable and, in the words of JS, “reactive.”

It is the undertones within the testimony of both brothers and within the 911 call which many of us find so troubling. Not using her name, just some ‘girl’, disminishing that RZ did CPR by calling it a few breaths even though JS wasn’t there to see what she did or did not do. And he added an unnecessary explanation that RZ didn’t save MS.

There’s a cognitive dissonance all over this crime regarding respect for the deceased. Perhaps within JS it stems from a pattern or a history of disrespect towards women. (It appeared in the testimony of dozens of women in their class-action lawsuit against JS’s company.) And AS’s odd brashness was in full display in the hours after RZ’s death. This attitude appeared when he spoke without a filter to police. From Ann Rule’s book, some of the first words out of AS’s mouth: “This must be traumatic for you,” Scanlon said. “Officer Kline will stay here with you.” At first AS seemed not to hear what he’d said. And then he blurted, “This is ******ing crazy. I don’t think my bedside manner is that bad”.

Meant in humor or in a sleep-deprived manner to defuse the incredible seriousness about the loss of life of his brother’s girlfriend? Perhaps the intent is to point out how ridiculous it would be to look at his involvement. But either way, the sexual innuendo is there, and it rings of callousness.

To Imp in your post 787: I found your analysis of AS’s motive very compelling. To add to your scenario, I believe those who think he was fueled with anger over MS’s accident and his family’s horror may also be correct. It’s not too far-fetched to see that RZ refusing an advance unleashed the emotions over MS and added to his violence. imo.

And what is so extremely hard to reconcile is the almost immediate hire of a defense attorney for AS. It’s been thought, though never confirmed, that JS was the person who hired PP, a well-connected defense attorney. For me the question became why in the world would he believe it necessary to take this action this soon if AS had told him only that RZ committed suicide; unless, of course, AS had shared a bit of truth with his bro. If JS knew and kicked RZ’s dying body aside to help his brother does it not show a further element of heartlessness towards a woman with whom he allegedly was finding a way to build a future?
Simply my 2 cents.

What a great post all around! Wonderful in all ways.

 

[BooBooTheFool]

Everyone who believes there's "no motive" for RZ's murder can't offer any reason why they think there's no motive. But people who think this is a strange and elaborate way to commit suicide have reasons why it is a strange and elaborate way to commit suicide.

Statistically the reason male suicide rates are higher than female suicide rates is because men generally tend to choose lethal means (guns, hanging) while women tend to choose less lethal means such as an overdose or mixing alcohol with pills.
I took a class in suicide prevention, I'm a survivor and this is well documented but here's an official source from the National Institute of Health: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3539603/.

 

[IzzyBlanche]

I'm curious. If locals felt that way about Gore, why didn't they vote him out of office the last election?

I have no idea. As I said, I can speak only for myself.

ETA: Also my point was that not all locals support Gore.

 

[Peaceful]

That mansion is huge. What evidence of AS was found in the specific area which was the crime scene on the upper level? I don't recall any. Thanks.

I think the evidence of Adam was the writing on the door, the gloves on the floor, the knives on the floor, possibly the Dr. Pepper bottle, the two paint brushes with only one used. IMO

 

[Lezah]

BBM. It may be if you were in the courtroom you would feel differently. Perhaps you were - but I got a different sense from him just by being there.

I was in court and I share the same opinion as Justice be served...

 

[Imp]

A lot of the time "motive" for crimes of opportunity (like sexual assaults that lead to murder) are lacking. There's usually forensic evidence that bolsters the claim. SDSO botched the investigation so badly right from the beginning; especially when it comes to what evidence would've been on RZ's body by leaving it uncovered for hours. With that kind of carelessness you can't in good conscience say that "LE and ME have officially concluded" because they didn't do what they were supposed to do and if they eventually got around to it, in regards to RZ's throat (can't remember if it was her larynx or not but they lost it), they didn't do it properly.. jmo.

You are 100% correct. Unfortunately, there are still some folks who could be shown a video of AS sexually assaulting, strangling, binding, and hogtying RZ and they would still insist they saw no evidence of a homicide.

 

[Peaceful]

RZ died while Max was still alive. The mystery surrounding his injuries would be best investigated by CPS/LE. Murdering RZ prior to any investigation makes no sense.

Well, I guess that depends on which one of the stories told by the people involved you chose to believe, since there have been numerous versions. How did the people involved feel about Rebecca? IIRC, some were so concerned about what happened that they went looking for her on the very night of her death to question her.

 

[BooBooTheFool]

Wonder how Adam’s crew feels if they have heard that disaster of an emergency call for Rebecca?

The contradiction between the training and role of being a Captain, on the Mighty Mississippi River no less, and the way he bumbled around is huge.

Adam had required safety & first aid training to earn his Captains license.

He has a college degree that necessitates reading and comprehension skills.

He has to navigate with technology and instincts knowing his bearing and location constantly on the crowded and dangerous River.

So why did he play dumb on the 911 call?

As Captain he is expected to take charge and to jump into action in an emergency.

He knew that he had to have a location for Emergency Services to respond.

He could have given his GPS coordinates with that handy phone.

He could have described where he was “Spreckles -5 or so houses down from Hotel Del. Shacknai residence; ocean side”

Just a quick Google turns up:





http://www.annapolisschoolofseamanship.com/captainslicense.html#cpr

I hadn't quite thought of his profession like that. Good points all the way around.
And how her body was positioned, no way he was actually doing rescue breathing (although her mouth was open because of the tshirt gag?) or chest compressions.

Her knees being bent is the giveaway for me. So is the position she was in on the ground. She was still bound as if hog tied.

It takes so much work -mental gymnastics- to make this a suicide.

 

[IzzyBlanche]

Everyone who believes there's "no motive" for RZ's murder can't offer any reason why they think there's no motive. But people who think this is a strange and elaborate way to commit suicide have reasons why it is a strange and elaborate way to commit suicide.

Statistically the reason male suicide rates are higher than female suicide rates is because men generally tend to choose lethal means (guns, hanging) while women tend to choose less lethal means such as an overdose or mixing alcohol with pills.
I took a class in suicide prevention, I'm a survivor and this is well documented but here's an official source from the National Institute of Health: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3539603/.

That reminds me. There has been expert testimony that Rebecca could have bound her own hands.

Has there been any expert testimony about the incidence of suicide victims who gag themselves, apart from those attempting to kill themselves with asphyxiation?

That detail alone makes me think suicide is highly unlikely. But it's not the only one.

 

[Peaceful]

I don't believe both deaths were investigated with the same degree of thoroughness. Max is deserving of justice, too. I think if you want a jury to believe a man premeditated the murder and rape of his brother's girlfriend, a motive is always found to be helpful. Especially if both LE and ME have officially concluded it was suicide and testify there is no evidence of homicide by anyone.

I agree with you on this, Mybelle. Unfortunately of the two deceased, it's only Rebecca's family that has not accepted what I consider to be severely botched investigations. It's unfortunate to the point of being hard to comprehend, IMO.

 

[Jessica2012]

I agree with you.

 

[BooBooTheFool]

While administering cpr, why didn’t AS free RZ’s hand bindings? [...]
snip>>
In testimony he said that he tried to feel for pulse but could barely get a finger under the rope bindings. I would think that right then he would say to himself “oh crap, let me get the knife to loosen these”.

My opinion

that's the other thing about the "i did cpr after cutting her down" stuff that bothers me.
this is why he's playing bumbling, like it's part of his personality. that he's just a strange, absent-minded dude and wasn't thinking.
then the ambien was added into the equation. that sounds like something that could've been an early defense.

 

[Jessica2012]

That mansion is huge. What evidence of AS was found in the specific area which was the crime scene on the upper level? I don't recall any. Thanks.

There was none. He was also excluded from being a contributor to any of the DNA found.

 

[BooBooTheFool]

[...] The things that do bug me about him is his odd personality, but that doesn’t mean much. But the ridiculous comment he yelled at poor dead RZ, are you dead? Sounds so crass and ridiculous. Who says that? Also pretending not to know the knots. That he did cpr with her hands tied behind her back. [..]. And to yap about masterbation. Why bring that up out of the blue? You would think he wouldn’t mention that unless he was accused of something. Also, who was the Asian *advertiser censored* watcher and how much did that occur. Was he obsessed with that?

Other things that stand out to me is even if she could tie up her hands like that how and why tie her legs up like that? What would be her point to make it so hard to walk and jump. It would be near impossible to catapult yourself over the railing. Her legs wouldnt save her. Who would do that if they are going to jump off a building. I would stress that part. And why write that odd note on the door. What does that do for her?
He walked her a couple of steps after death and tossed her off the balcony OR he never tossed her off there. Just tied a piece of rope there and staged that and dumped her in the yard to lo and behold find her at 6:45am. Just waiting til dawn to find her.

bbm
This is my line of thought when I look at confusing human actions. I ask "what is the point in this action? what does this do for the individual? what purpose does this serve?"
AS is a weird guy, a lot of people are weird; I'm weird but all the weird stuff at the scene serves AS more than it would RZ if she was the one who had painted the message, stripped naked presumably after getting out of the shower, sat in her own menstrual blood (i don't know about the rest of you ladies but i never do this; i immediately put a tampon in after a shower), tied herself up using knots, gagged herself with a shirt. ....how does that help her?

The only other explanation is her having concocted an elaborate plan to frame a member of the Shacknai clan (if JS and AS are anything to go by, they are quite clannish) for her murder because she is so arts or something ; I considered that like a year ago but I don't like it for this because it is so elaborate and there is no guarantee it would work; she knew Jonah's status in the community and their whole relationship was a power dynamic so I don't feel that she felt she had that recourse.

The thing that really cinches it for me is the way JS made some dismissive statement about "asian honor"; how convenient for him(*Dana Carvey church lady voice*). Especially since that's more in line with East Asian culture; not Southeast Asian culture (especially not if Christianity has such a heavy presence there).

You can't have it both ways; you can have the presence of DNA make it mean RZ did it herself or the lack of DNA make it mean AS did not do it. Gloves exist. Wiping things down is a thing.

And what of the paint on her nipples? I read in an earlier thread that paint was found on her nipples? i guess RZ did that herself too..

 

[clearskies1]

There was none. He was also excluded from being a contributor to any of the DNA found.

Including on the rope he supposedly cut down during the 911 call.

 

[IzzyBlanche]

I've mentioned before that I followed this case assiduously at first, particularly here at WS, but then stepped away because it seemed to be going nowhere.

Even the first day the story broke and I saw it on the news, I never in my wildest dreams would have predicted it would be ruled a suicide. A suicide with hands and ankles bound? Nope, nope, nope.

But by the same token the motive for murder never made sense to me either, until I returned here recently and learned about the knife handle with Rebecca's blood.

Then it all made horrifying sense to me.

I really don't believe it had anything to do with Max's death. It was a sexual assault that resulted in murder.

IMO of course.

 

[IzzyBlanche]

that's the other thing about the "i did cpr after cutting her down" stuff that bothers me.
this is why he's playing bumbling, like it's part of his personality. that he's just a strange, absent-minded dude and wasn't thinking.
then the ambien was added into the equation. that sounds like something that could've been an early defense.

I will never forget the images on the TV of her lying dead in the courtyard. On her side.

How does one perform CPR on a person lying on their side? Or did he turn her back over on her side after turning her on her back (with her hands bound behind her) to perform CPR?

I realize I'm flogging deceased equines here.

But I have questions.