Rebecca Zahau Wrongful death trial begins. Trial coverage and discussion #3

[wyatt]

Hello all. Reading for a while, and itching to post. Forgive any details I may have missed.

According to the 911 call, AS determined RZ had "hung herself."

Now, how did he come to that conclusion before anyone else did? Yes, she was hanging, but she was also bound, and suicide is NOT the first thing you think of when seeing someone bound and hanged.

If I came upon someone in that condition, my FIRST thought would not be suicide. Because of any time I ever heard of an account in reality, or seen a film scene depicting a bound, hanging, murder victim, I would automatically assume "murder," if I found someone like this. I would also assume the killer was still nearby. I would fear that I might be their next victim.

Whether or not I had the physical ability to attempt to rescue the bound, hanging victim, I would never presume "suicide" and state that a victim "hung herself." On the contrary, I would tell the dispatch operator that I feared for my own safety and describe what appeared to be a killing. Wouldn't any of you?

I mean, presume AS innocent for a moment and put yourselves into his shoes. You emerge from the guesthouse, see this horrific site...of someone BOUND and hanged. At THAT initial stage, it completely escapes common sense to determine she did this to herself.

Some people following this case had to be persuaded into a suicide theory with a video reenactment constructed by LE. Well...from Day #1, AS didn't need LE to propose a suicide theory for him. He didn't need to watch a video of how this type of suicide might be carried out. And, if I'm not mistaken, AS is not an authority on bound hangings, so...

HOW would he KNOW this was a suicide from the start? How could he have analyzed the scene so quickly to conclude this was a suicide when the general public needs a video reenactment to even consider that as a possibility?

My questions are rhetorical. My point is that he SHOULDN'T have drawn that conclusion. He should NOT have thought suicide when anyone else coming upon that scene would have thought murder. He said she "hung herself" when he had no way of actually knowing that...IF he were innocent.

 

[Tortoise]

Good to see the defense is running scared. It is and it should be.

I understand what a heavy blow this is to Mary but if I was a juror the significance of the ME not jumping up to defend his own work and answer questions wouldn't be lost on me.

I have faith that Greer will make mincemeat of them in his closing speech. The defense is so obviously having to wriggle around the evidence and make leaps that defy common sense logic. You can never call a jury, there are often times surprises, but he doesn't need a unanimous jury here and he only needs to tip the scales.

I don't agree that they should make the case for murder without Adam. As an alternative to nothing it is something, but there is enough to show it was him on a preponderance of the evidence. Just the point of it having to be someone who knew about Max, and his shenanigans on the 911 call and CPR. He says he breathed into her mouth when her jaw was already rigid and the smell alone would have repelled him, yet he has never mentioned it. Smells like that are unforgettable - she had been dead for at least 4 hours. Another case I followed where a mother did CPR on her daughter who had been dead for less time than Rebecca (with her cellphone on loudspeaker with the emergency operator because she could not hold her phone at the same time unlike Adam), was blown back by the stench from her stomach. Adam said nothing about that because he didn't know about it because he didn't do it.

This attack was sexual and deviant:

hogtie
knife handle
plastic bag and strangulation
unnecessary admission to masturbation

No one else (connected with Max) has to justify that last factor. He was worried they would find his sperm, not anyone else's.

 

[Tortoise]

Welcome to the thread and welcome to the forum wyatt!

I agree with you. She looked like a torture victim and she was one. It's so obvious that he distances himself from the sight of her, yet he handled her! He described her in court as something out of place. He has no reason to be so deceptive if he is not responsible for her death.

 

[*Lash*]

Wow... I recall that Lucas left San Diego County last summer to take over the LA County Morgue but as a County Employee if he was previously on witness list then it was by (defense) subpoena. Either defense over-confident in what they've put to jury thus far or County did not want any further exposure. I don't know if plaintiff call can Lucas given that defense has provided the court a substitute ME.

It feels like a planned, strategic move. Why? What is the strategy?

 

[Hatfield]

JMO
I havent followed this case too much. I did read news about it and IMO I dont think she bound her own hands.

I just got through reading quite a few articles about suicides with hanging and did find that some will bind their hands but it is considered rare and most all the time the knots are very loose around the hands and did not have any kind of elaborate knot.

My conclusion is this woman did not kill herself. I base that on the rarity of someone tying their own hands and especially the way they were tied.

Below is statistics from an article that analyzed real suicide by hanging examples and most all were loose knots and very rare. None of them bound their feet from what i read.

Of 72 hanging suicide cases only 5 involved self binding of the hands.

The article is a little confusing and I had to pour through it to understand the numbers. 17 out of 72 involved using something extra like the bindings or putting a cushion type material around the noose. Of those 17 only 5 involved actual self binding of the hands.
.
This is the part in the article where it discusses just those 5 cases. The percentage given is just for the 17 cases so remember that the total was 72 and the percentage given is just percentage of the 17 that involved something more like soft material around the noose and includes the 5 cases of hand binding. None had feet bound from what I see.

This is the part that talks about just those 5 cases of the 17.

" 4(24%) cases had tied up their hands in front or behind the body(Figs. 1, 2), 1 (6%) of them had tied up his hands with a clothesline"


****** WARNING ******* link has graphic hanging pictures

Dont view unless you dont mind

http://www.academia.edu/903627/Prec...g_and_Reducing_Pain_in_Suicidal_Hanging_Cases

 

[*Lash*]

The 40 page report referenced must include more than 20 pages of photos because the report I recall was not 40 detailed pages.

BBM - I will admit it - this brings out some emotion :tantrum:!

His report was NOT 40 detailed pages. Semantics. Did the jury hear how the author of this “fine” 40 page report left Rebecca’s nude body exposed for 12 plus hours?

 

[Hatfield]

JMO
Assuming this was murder. I have been trying to understand why he would bind the victims hands feet and gag her.

I think he had to. I think his original plan was to just make it look like a suicide by hanging without the bindings but what I think happened is during the course of him trying to subdue her she put up a struggle. So he bound her hands and feet and gagged her to prevent her screaming out.

There were reports of loud music coming from the house that evening before I believe. So I think all the binding and gagging was necessary for him to subdue her.

Then when he wanted to make it look like a suicide he realized she had marks around her wrists already. And fibers from the ropes were around her anyway so he figured investigators would know she was bound already so he decided to leave them all in place.

I think he did research on hangings because he would have found what I read too that it does happen. And after he knew it is possible that some victims will do it themselves he decided to just leave everything on her.

His mistake IMO was the type of extravegant knots he used which pretty much never happens in real cases of self tying hands before hanging. Everything I have read so far in real cases suggests the rarity of people even tying their own hands and feet but even if they do it then they seldom if ever use an extravegant knot.

I cannot believe the conclusion had anything to do with suicide and it is upsetting to see time and time again how suicide is told as the cause when serious questions exist. I think too many times investigators use suicide as a cause when a case becomes difficult to really spend a lot of time and money to really dig into it more. It seems to be a cop out IMO in lots of cases. The ones I worry about the most are jail and prison "suicides" by hanging. I think in lots of cases another prisoner or someone else actually killed the person and made it look like suicde. Its just too easy to not investigate and just rule it a suicide. Especially when funding is low and they dont want to spend more money on elaborate investigations.

 

[*Lash*]

The “replacement” ME for the original ME Lucas cannot answer personal questions. I believe it would be considered hearsay? Mr. Greer cannot ask the “replacement” ME why Lucas left Rebecca’s body exposed for 12 plus hours. He cannot testify to what ME Lucas was thinking or doing. This is one reason to remove Lucas as a defense witness, in my opinion.

 

[stmarysmead]

BBM - I will admit it - this brings out some emotion :tantrum:!

His report was NOT 40 detailed pages. Semantics. Did the jury hear how the author of this “fine” 40 page report left Rebecca’s nude body exposed for 12 plus hours?

In fairness, the inexcusable treatment of RZ’s body does not impugn the man’s expertise at his job.

Now, did he not arrive on the scene for after 12 hours, because I have taken note of the arguments here about degradation of evidence?

I wish I could get a feel for what is actually happening in this trial. From reading here, it seems that it’s a slam dunk for the plaintiffs with the expensive defense lawyers making many mistakes that the jury will notice and vote against them accordingly.

Listening to the podcast, I got a very different impression that the Defense was at the least...holding their own.

Besides the San Diego newspaper, I can’t find other coverage. Once JS testified, it seems the media is not reporting much.

 

[stmarysmead]

The “replacement” ME for the original ME Lucas cannot answer personal questions. I believe it would be considered hearsay? Mr. Greer cannot ask the “replacement” ME why Lucas left Rebecca’s body exposed for 12 plus hours. He cannot testify to what ME Lucas was thinking or doing. This is one reason to remove Lucas as a defense witness, in my opinion.

Was evidence only taken from the body after the 12 hours? Were no samples taken or collected before that? If so, I’d like to know why as well.

Leaving RZ exposed for 12 hours is an moral outrage. But it does not prove murder or suicide, unless key evidence can be PROVEN to have degraded.

Isn’t there a way Mr Greer can make this point through other witnesses?

 

[*Lash*]

In fairness, the inexcusable treatment of RZ’s body does not t the man’s expertise at his job.

Now, did he not arrive on the scene for after 12 hours, because I have taken note of the arguments here about degradation of evidence?

I wish I could get a feel for what is actually happening in this trial. From reading here, it seems that it’s a slam dunk for the plaintiffs with the expensive defense lawyers making many mistakes that the jury will notice and vote against them accordingly.

Listening to the podcast, I got a very different impression that the Defense was at the least...holding their own.

Besides the San Diego newspaper, I can’t find other coverage. Once JS testified, it seems the media is not reporting much.

Agree to disagree here as TOD is very important to a Medical Examiner. In a case such as this, I would say it is one of the more important details to give in an alleged 40 page report. Rebecca’s TOD has a big gap because of the 12 hour lap in time. Not even mentioning the possibility of degrading DNA. What if it started raining? Preserving and obtaining evidence as soon as possible is just as important as the evidence itself.

In my opinion, this was completely inexcusable and unethical. Someone should have lost their job.

 

[stmarysmead]

Agree to disagree here as TOD is very important to a Medical Examiner. In a case such as this, I would say it is one of the more important details to give in an alleged 40 page report. Rebecca’s TOD has a big gap because of the 12 hour lap in time. Not even mentioning the possibility of degrading DNA. What if it started raining? Preserving and obtaining evidence as soon as possible is just as important as the evidence itself.

In my opinion, this was completely inexcusable and unethical. Someone should have lost their job.

Well, I agree. So no evidence Collection was done during that entire 12 hours? Are there articles that explain what was going on there during that time period?

Did the family ever file any type of suit against the city, medical examiners office, police?

 

[K_Z]

Wow. I am just stunned that Jonathan Lucas won't be defending his AR. And I agree with those above that this is an abrupt change in strategy, not simply because JL couldn't travel.

So the first thing that comes to mind, is "why" isn't the defense using someone else from the San Diego County ME's office as their "substitute"?

Hmmmm..

A few things come to mind. Remember that JL ALSO did Max Shacknai's autopsy, just a few days after Rebecca died. That might just be too coincidental in timing for the jury to digest. I'm sure that the defense would want mightily to keep that fact away from the attention of the jury, and putting JL on the stand is a risk that there would be foundation established for that fact to come out. And it would be VERY uncomfortable to explore that in open court, IMO. Because I think (opinion only) that is it almost certain that JL knew that the child Rebecca supposedly was so distraught over that she killed herself, was Max--and he knew this at the time of Rebecca's autopsy, because of the criminal investigation of her death would have revealed Max's fall and ICU status. I think it's entirely possible/ probable that JL assigned himself to do Max's autopsy, precisely because of his involvement with Rebecca's autopsy. That just was not a coincidence, IMO. ****I think JL knew at the time of Rebecca's autopsy that Max was not likely to live. I'd bet money on it. He was aware Max would be pronounced later in the week, IMO.

And there was so much advocating on the part of Dina Shacknai to reopen Max's death as a murder investigation, that the conclusions for both (Rebecca- suicide, Max- accident) open up a can of worms about the concluisions for either one being "wrong". Max's death is not the topic of this lawsuit, so introducing any confusion or doubt about either death, by the DEFENSE, would seem to be problemmatic, IMO. So the defense has to minimize/ deflect/ deemphasize/ bury any connection between J. Lucas, Rebecca, Max, and SDSD Chief Gore. (More on that below.)

So then you have to wonder "why" didn't someone currently serving in the SD ME's office get called to defend JL's AR? Hmmm.....or even someone from a neighboring county? Or another ME from someplace else in California?? (The famed Judy Melinek?) Why go all the way to the University of Kentucky to find "someone" to defend JL's autopsy report and opine? Certainly Dr. Gregory Davis is a fine educator, with a pretty good educational and work history. (Easily searched for anyone interested.) He is primarily an educator, from what I can tell. Couldn't find a lot of things he's authored, but here is one example of a commentary he published in 2013 in response to another scholarly article on virtual autopsies (not relevant content to Rebecca's case, but it's short, and an example of how the thinks and writes):

https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007/s12024-013-9438-2.pdf

So he's an "ok" guy to be an expert witness in the general sense, IMO. But he is soooooooooooooooooooo disconnected from California (not licensed there, never practiced there that I can find, no obvious professional connections) that he then becomes the "perfect" expert witness, if that makes sense. He has absolutely NO connection to the area or the law enforcement structure or individuals there. He is "just" reading the AR (and looking at the pics) in an ivory tower educational vacuum. He isn't opining on the role of the ME, why it took so long for them to come, the glaring omissions in the AR, omissions at the scene, etc. He can't. He has zero knowledge of all that. He can truthfully say he doesn't know the answers to any of those type of questions, and the line of questioning dies. Brilliant strategy.

Hopefully Mr. Greer will be able to explore his background again on cross, and ask him about the above kinds of issues. It could be a way to force him to say "I don't know" a lot, which would send a message to the jury. I think I have a few questions rolling around in my mind.

So, then there is this interesting discussion of the SDC ME's office (March 2017):

Unlike all of San Diego County’s other officials, Dr. Glenn Wagner says his clients are literally “dying to see him.”

Wagner said he is the county’s third-highest ranking law enforcement official, outranked by the district attorney and sheriff, he has a badge and power to make arrests.

As the county’s second medical examiner — the office switched from coroner’s to ME’s in 1990 and Wagner was hired in 2009 — he has worked to make the office not just one to sign death certificates and conduct investigations in suspicious deaths, but collect data to help the living.

Wagner said his office is fairly unique among the state’s 58 counties in that is only one of four that is a medical examiner’s office instead of a coroner’s and a non-elected position. San Diego’s coroner’s office — created in 1850 — converted to medical examiner in 1990. It is the newest, with the others being San Francisco, Los Angeles and Ventura counties.

The office processes about 900 cases per month, up to 30 cases per day, with most bodies released within 72 hours — 1 1/2 hours if religious reasons require a quick burial.

There are more suicides here than on the East Coast, with the spikes being in adolescents (most often female Hispanics or Asians who hang themselves or males with gender identity issues who endured bullying), those in the 35 to 55 age range who jump off bridges or shoot themselves due to changes in their relationships or finances — “a long-term fix for a short-term problem,” he said — and older folks, ages 65-plus and traditionally white males, who are experiencing health issues and shoot themselves because they fear losing control due to Alzheimer’s or dementia.

Four other counties do not have their coroner’s office as part of the sheriff’s or district attorney’s office, while in the remaining 50 the sheriff also serves as coroner. Unlike coroners, who are often elected and at times a layperson, a medical examiner must be physician, specifically a forensic pathologist.

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com...m-pow-news-cogg-medical-examiner17-story.html

So, if Dr. Glenn Wagner were to be on the stand as the spokesperson for JL, there is a risk that facts like the ones in the article above can come out. GW could be forced, for example, to state that hispanic and asian females in his jurisdiction often commit suicide by hanging. And that can be exploited by the plaintiffs to demonstrate confirmation bias. Not good for the defense. So, folks like Dr. GW are probably not good overall for the defense case.

So Kentucky doc is looking better and better to Adam's team. He knows no one, has no connections, doesn't practice in California, sits in an ivory tower of education, and didn't do Max's autopsy, either.

"Finest autopsy report he's ever seen." I'd guess that opinion cost at least $10,000 in time, plus travel expenses.Probably more.

Kinda interesting that the defense DIDN'T use Dr. Judy Melinek, eh? Gosh, and she's so conveniently located, in San Fran! Lol.

 

[bourne]

I’ve been in court and everyone I’ve spoken to believes Rebecca was heinously murdered and that the killer is Adam because of his expertise in nautical knot tying despite his refusal to admit it during testimony. His haughty dismissive attitude towards “the girl” and “this f’king -“ and the discrepancy beteeen his recall now in 2018 and his 2011 “inconclusive” polygraph the day of incident about his sequence of actions that morning of Tebecca’s murder - whether he cut her down before making 911 call makes everyone in courtroom believe him to be a bold faced liar.

The “I couldn’t fit my finger under the bindings to get her pulse” contradicts the defense’ absurd contention that the bindings were loose” so that she could tie her own hands in front of her body and remove her hands to finish tying herself behind her back while with ankles bind - too ludicrous to even consider. And at which point in time do she also find time and hands to put noose around her neck and wind T-shirt around her own neck several times and stuff down her throat? Was it before or after binding her own hands in don’t of her body or after she removed hem to tie herself behind her back and complete bindings with hogtie?

Get Outta Here! Bull.

Adam is guilty. GUILTY as charged.

 

[K_Z]

By the way, did Dr. G. Davis actually say Rebecca's neck was broken?? Or is that a misinterpretation by the author of the San Diego Union Tribune article??

Was anyone in court, that heard him say that??

Davis called the 40-page report by Dr. Jonathan Lucas, “one of the finest I’ve come across in my career.”

Davis said the report accurately concluded that Zahau died from her neck breaking in the 9-foot drop from the balcony.

He disagreed with a second autopsy presented earlier by the Zahau family’s lawyer that concluded she died from strangulation.

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/courts/sd-me-zahau-knots-20180326-story.html

Because if he really said that, Greer is going to shred his testimony, IMO.

 

[Tortoise]

I think it will backfire. Greer only has to keep asking the questions that need answering, he won't be able to answer them, and the jury will think why aren't we being given Lucas.

 

[K_Z]

A few questions for Dr. Gregory Davis rolling around in my head:

Have you ever been a county coroner? A county Medical Examiner? Where, when? Describe typical caseload.

How many hanging victims have you personally autopsied?

How many were bound with hands behind their back, hogtied, gagged, and went over a railing naked under their own power?

How many had no neck fractures?

How many had ligature damage below the hanging ligature, but without any bony neck fractures?

Have you ever been licensed in California?

Have you been certified by the California Clinical Forensic Medical Training Center in conjunction with the California District Attorneys Association? Have you completed The SAFE (Sexual Assault Forensic Examiner) training program?

What do you know about the Cal OES 2-923 Sexual Assault Forensic Medical Report Form, the state mandated form required for use in California, and the California Medical Protocol for Examination of Sexual Assault and Child Abuse Victims?

Did the exam by Dr. JL comply in all areas with these standards?

What is the role of the San Diego County Medical examiner? How is it different from that of a coroner?

What is the unique structure of the SD ME's role in the law enforcement structure of suspicious death investigations in their jurisdiction?

What is the relationship and reporting authority between Sheriff Gore, and ME Dr. JL?

What did JL know about Max Shacknai's fall and prognosis at the time of Rebecca's autopsy?

(Ok, that's enough. I could go on and on. And I usually do..... sigh.)

 

[stmarysmead]

Why have t the Zahau family sued the Medical Examiners office, city of San Diego, police etc? This seems weird to me.

Is there a legal reason? So many of you know so much, even a few are insiders? Surely someone can tell me. It’s a very odd omission. Especially when even I have to concede the points made here about their handling of the case.

Surely RZ should have justice from them.

 

[Tortoise]

Does it seem as if this decision was last minute and was sprung on the plaintiffs? Why would they have believed it would be Lucas on Monday unless they had been told that? When exactly did Davis receive his brief from the defense?

 

[MyBelle]

iirc, RZ's hyoid bone was broken.