Rebecca Zahau Wrongful death trial begins. Trial coverage and discussion #3

[Tortoise]

Me thinks Mr Webb is having to face some very tough decisions. Put them on the stand and see them crucified, don't put them on the stand and risk alienating the jury.

Keep up the good work Mr Greer.

 

[MyBelle]

Well, there is this thing called perjury. JMO, that may be what the ME and SDSO witnesses are concerned about. If the investigation is re-opened and new information is revealed, they could be exposed as perjurers if they testify at this civil trial in a less than truthful manner, then are later called to testify in grand jury or trial in a criminal version of this case..

As for Dr. Davis, Mr. Greer will likely extract the data behind his claims on cross examination

I doubt the investigation will be reopened. Not after Dr. Davis' testimony which concurred with the ME. I've never heard of a case where the plaintiff's attorney can demand an expert witness produce data to support his expert opinion. I thought that was the entire point of being designated "expert" by the Judge.

 

[MyBelle]

I agree with Tortoise and the others here this morning who think the option for murder without Adam should not be offered. There is no reason to do that. There is plenty of evidence against Adam for 9 jurors to find preponderance of the evidence supports it. I hope Greer does not decide to go this route. It seems to be his decision, based on what he said in the podcast with Tricia. I'm glad to hear Bourne report the general feeling in the courtroom about Adam's guilt.

I guess I'm confused. This is a wrongful death lawsuit isn't it? Either it is proved Adam caused the death or not. The jury isn't deciding whether it was homicide or suicide.

 

[Brit]

Me thinks Mr Webb is having to face some very tough decisions. Put them on the stand and see them crucified, don't put them on the stand and risk alienating the jury.

Keep up the good work Mr Greer.

Anyone remember this? Just one example of how LE has tried so hard to control the narrative in the media regarding this case as well as strong arming the Zahau family.

http://www.cbs8.com/story/16194812/sheriff-warns-zahau-attorney-case-file-may-be-opened


So, when the Sheriff's department turned over its evidence to family attorney Anne Bremner, it came with a warning. The letter read, in part:

"The files that you will be receiving will not be released to the public, to the media, or anyone else, unless there later develops a law enforcement necessity to do so."

"This decision, however, may be re-evaluated if it becomes clear that parts of the investigation have been released to the media and to the public 'piecemeal', and that such a selective release of portions of the investigation has presented our investigation in a false light."

"Please understand that we have no desire to intrude on your client's right to speak freely about, or even criticize, the investigation completed by this office."

"…if portions of the investigation are selectively released to the media and to the public in a way that falsely represents the work performed by the Sheriff's Department, we will correct the false portrayal by opening the entire investigation for public scrutiny."

First Amendment attorney, Guylyn Cummins of San Diego, is not affiliated with the Coronado death investigation, but she was taken aback when News 8 showed her the Sheriff's letter.

"I personally have never seen anything like this," Cummins said. "I think it's the first time that I've ever seen a law enforcement or governmental agency do this."

"What the letter's trying to say is, if you release something and we don't like your viewpoint -- or the information that you rely on -- then we're putting you on notice that we may come back and release anything that we want; whether it's part of the lawful investigation or simply digging up dirt on the victim," said Cummins.

 

[justice be served]

So IMO here is a scenario that I really think could've have happened:

Complete rigor mortis takes up to 12 hours after death to fully set in, and starts with smaller parts of body first, i.e. eyelids, jaw etc., and larger muscles last. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigor_mortis) With the time of death range given in this case, it is likely that full rigor mortis had not set in at the time that AS discovered RZ's body. When placing RZ on the ground, or any attempt to move her body, it is likely that one would place arms under the leg, as this is the natural way to carry/pickup/move a body. Furthermore, since RZ's hands were tied behind her back you wouldn't place her directly on her back. This could explain how the body was positioned with legs bent, and slightly on one side. It would make sense as full rigor mortis set in that the legs then became rigid in this position.

As for lividity settling in the back, if a body is moved within a certain time after a hanging death and placed in a different position, then the hypostasis in the limbs will fade and new areas of lividity can appear along the back.

Suicide is sad, tragic, and traumatizing for those left behind. It might not always make sense, and it is understandable that grieving family members do not want to think that their loved one chose to die. However, that does not make it murder.

Interesting theory but difficult to prove since Rebecca had been dead for something like 17 hours by the time the ME came to the scene. Too bad they didn’t come much earlier.

And secondly, I guess we’ll never know whether or not Lucas’ findings can be substantiated to cross as the county weaseled out of having him testify. That bad move for the county is now telling its own story that the jury won’t miss IMO.

Thanks for your highly technical input – quite impressive for a first time poster and with such expertise!

 

[*Lash*]

Zahau Family Investigation Angers Sheriff

March 15, 2012

https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/lo...ation_Angers_Sheriff_San_Diego-133955123.html

 

[MyBelle]

Me thinks Mr Webb is having to face some very tough decisions. Put them on the stand and see them crucified, don't put them on the stand and risk alienating the jury.

Keep up the good work Mr Greer.

I don't believe it was a tough decision for Mr. Webb because a jury must base its decision on the evidence it sees and hears in the courtroom only, not on something or someone they don't see or hear.

 

[Imp]

<snipped to address>

This attack was sexual and deviant:

hogtie
knife handle
plastic bag and strangulation
unnecessary admission to masturbation

No one else (connected with Max) has to justify that last factor. He was worried they would find his sperm, not anyone else's.

BBM. You're singing my tune, Tortoise. Imo, ^^this can't be stated often enough. Imo, this was a deviant sexual assault that ended in murder.

 

[Imp]

BBM - I will admit it - this brings out some emotion :tantrum:!

His report was NOT 40 detailed pages. Semantics. Did the jury hear how the author of this &#8220;fine&#8221; 40 page report left Rebecca&#8217;s nude body exposed for 12 plus hours?

BBM. I suspect that very fact is 99% of the reason Lucas wasn't called. Indefensible.

Edited to add: There's also that pesky little problem of her missing throat post-autopsy.

 

[Tortoise]

I don't believe it was a tough decision for Mr. Webb because a jury must base its decision on the evidence it sees and hears in the courtroom only, not on something or someone they don't see or hear.

Someone who did not examine the body and who cannot answer the questions that should have been put to Lucas is no substitute for Lucas himself. This will be viewed negatively by the jury IMO.

 

[MyBelle]

Someone who did not examine the body and who cannot answer the questions that should have been put to Lucas is no substitute for Lucas himself. This will be viewed negatively by the jury IMO.

It may be viewed negatively by some on the jury but it also doesn't prove Adam caused RZ's death. I think the jury will have very explicit instructions before they deliberate.

 

[justice be served]

BBM. You're singing my tune, Tortoise. Imo, ^^this can't be stated often enough. Imo, this was a deviant sexual assault that ended in murder.

And someone brought up earlier (sorry can't remember who), that had Adam known that JS was already seeing another woman, then Adam would maybe have no compunction to approach Rebecca and it went bad. And one thing led to another. I find that to be plausible.

 

[Imp]

I don't know for sure, but from what has been described by Mary and Mr. Greer, they are barely staying afloat financially with this lawsuit. Maybe they'd like to sue them, but just can't bring the $$ resources against such a goliath-- who would have an unlimited, government/ public funded budget for defense.

Too bad some hugely wealthy celebrity or politician hasn't stepped up to help the Z family. That sure would be nice, and charitable.

Adam has Jonah's considerable wealth to fall back on.

MZLs husband just sold his pickup truck to help fund legal bills, per Mr. Greer.

Agree entirely w/K_Z. Before anyone asks why the Zahaus haven't done x, y, or z, keep in mind they tried in the beginning to get RZ's case reopened and failed, and I'm sure they spent money at that time. Now they're trying to foot the bill for their end of the civil trial, and they're far from wealthy. They're operating on a shoestring budget, attempting to pay their expert witnesses (and falling farther and farther behind, from what I can tell), and Mr. Greer is not only working pro bono, but also contribured to their account, for crying out loud.

They're tapped out, vs. the other side's apparently limitless funds.

 

[justice be served]

Someone who did not examine the body and who cannot answer the questions that should have been put to Lucas is no substitute for Lucas himself. This will be viewed negatively by the jury IMO.

I believe that is definitely a foregone conclusion.

The defense is showing its cards of desperation IMO.

 

[Brit]

It may be viewed negatively by some on the jury but it also doesn't prove Adam caused RZ's death. I think the jury will have very explicit instructions before they deliberate.

There were 2 autopsy&#8217;s. One performed by Wecht and one by Lucas. Wecht showed up to explain his findings and conclusion, Lucas did not do the same. With that said, the jury would put more weight into the findings of wecht, who actually performed an autopsy to an outside expert who just read the findings of someone else.

 

[justice be served]

A few questions for Dr. Gregory Davis rolling around in my head:

Have you ever been a county coroner? A county Medical Examiner? Where, when? Describe typical caseload.

How many hanging victims have you personally autopsied?

How many were bound with hands behind their back, hogtied, gagged, and went over a railing naked under their own power?

How many had no neck fractures?

How many had ligature damage below the hanging ligature, but without any bony neck fractures?

Have you ever been licensed in California?

Have you been certified by the California Clinical Forensic Medical Training Center in conjunction with the California District Attorneys Association? Have you completed The SAFE (Sexual Assault Forensic Examiner) training program?

What do you know about the Cal OES 2-923 Sexual Assault Forensic Medical Report Form, the state mandated form required for use in California, and the California Medical Protocol for Examination of Sexual Assault and Child Abuse Victims?

Did the exam by Dr. JL comply in all areas with these standards?

What is the role of the San Diego County Medical examiner? How is it different from that of a coroner?

What is the unique structure of the SD ME's role in the law enforcement structure of suspicious death investigations in their jurisdiction?

What is the relationship and reporting authority between Sheriff Gore, and ME Dr. JL?

What did JL know about Max Shacknai's fall and prognosis at the time of Rebecca's autopsy?

(Ok, that's enough. I could go on and on. And I usually do..... sigh.)

K_Z, as always, you are simply amazing!!! Please, Greer, use these questions to counter the fact that the ME felt they couldn't testify because he would be pounded IMO.

We have talked about the fact that Greer is up against 9 lawyers and multiple firms. It occurs to me also that he is up against the host of lawyers trying to protect the county as well. Talk about making it hard for the Plaintiff - they have made it unjustifiably difficult for the Zahau family now and for all of these years. Disgusting.

 

[Tortoise]

It may be viewed negatively by some on the jury but it also doesn't prove Adam caused RZ's death. I think the jury will have very explicit instructions before they deliberate.

And it obviously factors into their decision if they feel more inclined that suicide was an incorrect finding. Proof - to the standard of a preponderance of the evidence - that it was Adam comes from other evidence once the jury is sure it was not suicide.

 

[Imp]

And someone brought up earlier (sorry can't remember who), that had Adam known that JS was already seeing another woman, then Adam would maybe have no compunction to approach Rebecca and it went bad. And one thing led to another. I find that to be plausible.

That was me who said that. My theory is AS made a move on RZ when they got home that night and after learning (perhaps from JS) her relationship with his brother was over. He made a move because he figured bro wouldn't care anyway, and when she refused/fought back, things went very bad. Imo, there was semen somewhere - on or inside Rebecca, on clothes, carpet, shower, towels, rope, wherever - that either wasn't collected or was collected and not tested.

 

[justice be served]

BBM. I suspect that very fact is 99% of the reason Lucas wasn't called. Indefensible.

Edited to add: There's also that pesky little problem of her missing throat post-autopsy.

BBM. Thanks for the reminder of that. This was a finding of suicide by hanging and the one organ not put back into the body is the throat but all the other organs were put back?

I will speak to Dr. Lucas directly: You need to defend your autopsy and findings - not hide behind your attorneys. That is what a professional would do. And I would ask also if you volunteered (or insisted upon) doing Rebecca's autopsy since you had performed Max's as well. Maybe someone could weigh in on the appropriateness of that issue - especially considering where this stands now. Who could be questioned on that now? Who was Lucas' boss at the time?

 

[Imp]

There were 2 autopsy&#8217;s. One performed by Wecht and one by Lucas. Wecht showed up to explain his findings and conclusion, Lucas did not do the same. With that said, the jury would put more weight into the findings of wecht, who actually performed an autopsy to an outside expert who just read the findings of someone else.

This is a really important point, Brit. If I'm a juror and I get to hear from the actual performer of the 2nd autopsy, but at the last minute the actual performer of the 1st autopsy is replaced with a stand-in from 3,000 miles away ... I'm suspicious.