Rebecca Zahau Wrongful death trial begins. Trial coverage and discussion #3

[Lezah]

Testimony was the the fingerprint expert can detect if gloves were worn...leaves a certain type of ridge. No glove indications were found.

Can you please tell me who testified to this? I was present for most of the fingerprint testimony and I have a note to say “ ...there is no method of detecting if gloves were used” and I do not recall this in any of the testimony I heard. Do you recall which day it was or which witness? I would like to look it up. Thanks!

 

[BBL]

No one can know what Dina “wanted” etc. The only family that exhumed a body for a two day special during Sweeps Week were the Z family.

Respectfully, I'm glad they did. It kept the story alive and, well, here we are. I take no issue with the fact that they exhumed the body. If that was my sister, you can be darned sure I'd do the same. If the only way that Dr. Phil would do it is during sweeps, so be it. Blame Dr. Phil, not the Zahaus.

In terms of media manipulation, JS and his hired professionals have been at it from day one (ground zero). Even today there is a controlled bias in media reporting of the trial. So, I'm not agreeing with the point that one Dr. Phil show tried to skew the media.

Now interviews by NR, DS (Coronado Council meeting anyone?) abound. JS's machine has scrubbed as much as possible. IMO, they are also controlling, through legal threats and means, what is being reported as we speak. I only wish Mary had that kind of power.

 

[Mica]

Testimony was the the fingerprint expert can detect if gloves were worn...leaves a certain type of ridge. No glove indications were found.

So the gloves were tested? Must have been after these articles were written.

>>snip

They didn't look at a pair of woman's underwear in a garbage can in the guest house. They didn't look at black gloves at the scene. They didn't look at many people with DNA or fingerprints," Bremner revealed on set.

One big question, who was on a computer inside the home at 3 a.m., just hours before Zahau was found dead?

"On one of the computers – and she's alone in the house, apparently when she supposedly kills herself – is used after her death," said the Seattle-based attorney.

"This is a case where there's blood in the shower; not analyzed. There's footprints down in the kitchen; not analyzed," said Bremner.

Bremner also claimed that DNA evidence in the case was not fully analyzed the Sheriff's department.

"We have mixed DNA in this case all over; in things like the knife, the bed frame, and black gloves. Mixed DNA unexplained as to who these other donors are," said Bremner.

http://www.cbs8.com/story/16039227/dr-phil-airs-new-evidence-in-coronado-mansion-mystery


Bremner said that among the apparent clues that were disregarded by investigators were a pair of women’s underwear found in a guesthouse garbage, black gloves found at the scene and blood in a shower.

http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com...ath-gets-mixed-reactions-2011nov14-story.html

 

[Tortoise]

Anne Bremner tweeted on Mar 16th that she would be on Primetime Justice with Ashleigh.

As far as I know it hasn't been aired yet, which I find a little odd.

 

[stmarysmead]

Can you please tell me who testified to this? I was present for most of the fingerprint testimony and I have a note to say “ ...there is no method of detecting if gloves were used” and I do not recall this in any of the testimony I heard. Do you recall which day it was or which witness? I would like to look it up. Thanks!

It’s on Tricia’s interview with Caitlin Rother. IIRC it was the fingerprint expert. I was very surprised. I think the link to the SoundCloud is posted on the document thread.

 

[Lezah]

My understanding is the knife in question had been processed for fingerprints BEFORE it was tested for blood and epithelial cells, and t possibly the testing for cells occurred at a much later time-- IDK when those tests were done relative to Rebecca's death in 2011, but they may have been done in recent years when the plaintiff team gained access to the knife. There was discussion of this earlier, including comments by Mr. Greer in one of Tricia's interviews.

The "superglue fume" method was discussed as substantially degrading bio evidence, so the cell count is likely not accurate to what it was before the cyanoacrylate testing.

The epithelial cells were not lifted and examined microscopically at any point (2011 to present) from what I can glean. Vaginal epithelial cells are distinctive from, say, hand cells. Dried substances (secretions?) embedded in creases/ seams on the knife were not tested, either, IIRC.

I don't think it's accurate to say that it's been "proven" that the knife was not used as a rape instrument.

I heard this testimony. For a layman observer, at the end of the witness testimony, I was left with the impression that the application of superglue which was superheated / ‘vaporized’ had compromized the ‘cell count’. It was another example ( for me) of a messup in evidence process and collection.

( my opinion from viewing the proceedings in court)

 

[*Lash*]

I came to this case much later than most and I’m not nearly as informed as many here. I admire all for your dedication to the cause, your insight and intelligence in deciphering the evidence, and your research abilities. Apologizing in advance if this information has already been discussed, verified, or debunked.

Old article with some good info listing 45 items removed from the mansion. Good timeline of events regarding DS and JS activity. I didn’t realize there were 3 black gloves found at the scene and two additional narrow shoe prints from a third unknown person found on the balcony (in addition to the police officer’s boot print.) I assume the gloves were never tested? Would certainly explain the lack of killer’s DNA left behind. What about the additional shoe prints?

http://www.cbs8.com/story/15505829/some-shacknai-search-warrants-to-be-unsealed

Hi Mica :wave: I also like the article below. Good info on the DNA. The Dr. Phil show sure did cause an uproar with SDSO. They had to call another press conference.

From 11/17/2011, questions for the Sheriffs Crime Lab Director Mr Grubb:

DAVID GOTFREDSON/CBS8:

Real quick. Was there mixed DNA found anywhere else in terms of the -- I think Ms. Bremner said on the show there was mixed DNA found on gloves, on the bed frame, and on the knife. Is there mixed DNA on those items?

GRUBB:

I'll run this down for you fairly quickly. Overwhelmingly, in 10 of the 11 rope segments -- err -- samples from the rope was Rebecca Zahau’s DNA that was found. In one of those samples there was a fragment of DNA from some other source, absolutely un- interpretable. There was a low level of DNA un-interpretable on the large knife from the bedroom floor. There was a low-level mixture of DNA not interpretable on a doorknob to the balcony. Those are the mixtures that I think she was -- and the black gardening gloves that were recovered from a table at the scene? Again, a low level mixture, un- interpretable.

http://www.760kfmb.com/story/16068012/mixed-dna-all-over-zahau-death-scene-some-evidence-not-tested

 

[Lezah]

It’s on Tricia’s interview with Caitlin Rother. IIRC it was the fingerprint expert. I was very surprised. I think the link to the SoundCloud is posted on the document thread.

Thanks. I was sitting behind her! I will look it up, I am confident that was not testified to while I was present in court.

 

[Lezah]

He NEVER said he looosend the wrist knot.

I recall he did in his deposition...it was read out in court.

Edited to add ( when questioned by Greer re the pulse aspect AS denied loosening the ropes. Greer then brought in his deposition and made a point of him stating he had loosened the ropes )

(To the best of my recollection - my notes say ‘AS depo admits loosening / testimony says no’ )

 

[Mica]

Hi Mica :wave: I also like the article below. Good info on the DNA. The Dr. Phil show sure did cause an uproar with SDSO. They had to call another press conference.

From 11/17/2011, questions for the Sheriffs Crime Lab Director Mr Grubb:

Thank you, Lash! Unbelievable, mixed DNA found on several pieces of evidence including under one of Rebecca’s fingernails and all un-interpretable.....:banghead:

 

[Tortoise]

Thanks. I was sitting behind her! I will look it up, I am confident that was not testified to while I was present in court.

Perhaps it was something she has heard before but not in this courtroom.

 

[Lezah]

Perhaps it was something she has heard before but not in this courtroom.

Maybe, I know I would have remembered that if I heard it....

 

[Brit]

It’s on Tricia’s interview with Caitlin Rother. IIRC it was the fingerprint expert. I was very surprised. I think the link to the SoundCloud is posted on the document thread.

I do remember hearing something about the gloves, but in my recollection it was not Caitlin rother on Tricia’s podcast. It was on under the gavel podcast. I think last Thursday’s episode. But I will say that the reporters on that podcast seem to have a very different view about various testimony than I have read from sleuthers and Caitlin rother who were in court.

Sorry. I just checked the podcast and apparently I am wrong. I don’t recall where I had heard this. I’ve looked at so many articles etc about this case that it all gets jumbled in my head sometimes. Sorry.

 

[Mica]

I do remember hearing something about the gloves, but in my recollection it was not Caitlin rother on Tricia’s podcast. It was on under the gavel podcast. I think last Thursday’s episode. But I will say that the reporters on that podcast seem to have a very different view about various testimony than I have read from sleuthers and Caitlin rother who were in court.

Is Caitlin Rother a reliable source for facts or does she state opinions as fact?

 

[screecher]

Is Caitlin Rother a reliable source for facts or does she state opinions as fact?

I think a nice way to describe it....it's her interpretation of facts. Somewhere I read she is wanting/planning on writing a book.

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk

 

[Mica]

I think a nice way to describe it....it's her interpretation of facts. Somewhere I read she is wanting/planning on writing a book.

Sent from my VS985 4G using Tapatalk

I don’t know much about her other than she is an author. Interpretation of facts makes sense. Thank you.

 

[*Lash*]

Interesting to read this again after so long - especially after not appearing in court this week to testify in regards to his own autopsy report. I guess this would have been his testimony?

REPORTER:

A couple of quotes from Dr. Wecht that we haven’t mentioned: One of the things that he said on the program, if the body had just plummeted down with that sheer drop of several feet, then the cervical vertebrae would have been fractured or dislocated.

GORE:

Give that to Dr. Lucas.

LUCAS:

No that's fine. Um.. What Dr. Wecht is referring to is a hangman's fracture -- a so called hangman's fracture -- a fracture of the upper cervical spine that is seen in judicial hangings where a trapdoor drops out and a body falls straight down vertically. And it’s true. She did not have this factor – this fracture – um, in fact.. uh.. there is published studies on this that fractures in -- or hangman fractures are actually the exception rather than the rule. There is a series from 1992 showed that in a series of cases they looked at a minority of those cases actually had a fracture. So the absence of a fracture in Rebecca's case doesn't, doesn't prove anything; it doesn't add to or subtract from the case. Um. She had other evidence of a long drop; she had some torn muscles in her neck from the drop but she did not have any fractures.


DAVID GOTFREDSON/CBS8:

Were these other cases seven to nine foot drops?


LUCAS:

I didn’t look – I don't have the details off the top of my head of that study but these were regular judicial hangings.


REPORTER:

Something else Dr. Wecht said, which I think has been in the news a lot recently, and again, I’m quoting from him: I would like to hear from them how do you get four separate impacts at the top of the head in a vertical hanging. End quoting Dr. Wecht.

LUCAS:

Well, that is a good question. Um, the only problem is this is not a vertical hanging. It wouldn't... I don't see how it would be possible for her to be in a position with their feet bound and her hands bound to get in a position where she would be a straight vertical drop. The evidence of the scene supports and the bindings support the notion that she leaned over the balcony shifted her body weight over and went over in that fashion and you can imagine that she would be going with her head down or at least sideways. It's my thought that one of those impacts on the head was probably from the edge of the balcony as she went over. And I'll even -- since you brought those up I might as well clarify these impacts. There were four impacts he's absolutely right. One of them was 2 inches by 1 inch. That's the one that I think was probably from going over the balcony. The three others were smaller than a nickel. Not only did they not have enough -- did they not represent enough force to cause unconsciousness or any other -- they may not even have given her a headache. These were small injuries. I do not know exactly how they happened but they were minor and inconsequential. And uh like I said – there may have -- the mechanics of going over that balcony in a tipped over fashion I think could allow for the possibility of hitting her head on the balcony or perhaps somehow interacting with the rope as she straightened out.

DAVID GOTFREDSON/CBS8:


The two and one half inch gash, could that have caused unconsciousness?


LUCAS:


I don't know.


DAVID GOTFREDSON/CBS8:


And you’re aware the balcony has no lip that sticks out, right? There’s nothing to hit on the way down because there’s no lip that sticks out beyond the railing.


LUCAS:


Well I still think she could have hit -- the railing is – uh – there are spaces between the railings. I think she could've got her head on the edge. It may not stick out but they're still space for her to get her head in there.


DAVID GOTFREDSON/CBS8:


Don’t you think it’s unlikely that after she came down and became vertical, maybe swinging a little, it would be unlikely for her to hit her head at that point.


LUCAS:


You know -- I have to -- I think that's a possibility -- that's a possibility. [Gore to side whispers to Lucas: And when she’s cut down, also] Yeah, one other option was when she was cut down there may have been possibly an impact in that way, it could have bled a little bit – um -- even postmortem you can get a little bleeding after death. So – um -- those are the options I'm offering.


REPORTER:


We have the forensic pathologist Dr. Wecht again saying: I lean very strongly toward it being a homicide based on his findings, his opinions; something involving foul play. I lean very strongly against it being a suicide. Here is somebody who deals with autopsies and these kinds of things, how do you respond to this?


LUCAS:


Well all I can say is that – um -- that you know I respect -- I respectfully differ with his opinion. We were both looking at the same group of facts. Not just the facts of the autopsy but the facts of the entire totality of the investigation. Um, you know... I lived through this investigation from day one and – um – my conclusion is that it’s a suicide based on the same set of facts.



http://www.cbs8.com/story/16061354/...ew-details-revealed-in-coronado-mansion-death

 

[MyBelle]

I recall he did in his deposition...it was read out in court.

Edited to add ( when questioned by Greer re the pulse aspect AS denied loosening the ropes. Greer then brought in his deposition and made a point of him stating he had loosened the ropes )

(To the best of my recollection - my notes say ‘AS depo admits loosening / testimony says no’ )

He may have been able to take her pulse because of the loose rope but the only way to loosen a rope is at the knot. That's the entire point of a knot.

 

[Brit]

I don’t blame the Zahau’s for going on any show. IMO, most people in their position would do the same. The whole point is to keep your story in the media to make sure it stays relevant. There are so many examples of victims families who do the same thing. The point is that without this type of exposure you can’t put pressure on the people in charge of these investigations and hold them accountable. I would go on EVERY outlet possible if something like this happened to any of my loved ones. I don’t care if it’s 20/20, dr Phil, jerry springer......

 

[Myvice]

I don't understand why AS would be trying to take her pulse at her wrist when he is removing the gag from her mouth, giving CPR, up by her face...why not check her pulse in her neck? That rope had been cut and should have been loose I would think.