Rebecca's Autopsy

[sorrell skye]

And there was blood noted on her fingers in the AR. How did they account for that??

The AR never accounted for the blood on her fingers - yet another unanswered question.

Was the blood on her fingers collected & tested to determine to whom it might belong?

I doubt it, since it wasn't noted in the AR.

IMO, the blood on her fingers seems to have been nothing more than a cursory notation in the AR (as if it was assumed, without testing, that the source of the blood was RZ), and not as something that might have had potential significant evidentiary value.

Unless the blood was collected & tested, there is no way to determine whether or not it was RZ's blood, or someone else's.

 

[jjenny]

The AR never accounted for the blood on her fingers - yet another unanswered question.

Was the blood on her fingers collected & tested to determine to whom it might belong?

I doubt it, since it wasn't noted in the AR.

IMO, the blood on her fingers seems to have been nothing more than a cursory notation in the AR (as if it was assumed, without testing, that the source of the blood was RZ), and not as something that might have had potential significant evidentiary value.

Unless the blood was collected & tested, there is no way to determine whether or not it was RZ's blood, or someone else's.

Blood or no blood-who cares? It's all ironclad, don't you know.
I am still amazed they haven't found anyone's DNA or fingerprints except RN's. As if no one else had ever been to that room. Apparently no one else had ever touched that rope either.

 

[SunnieRN]

Blood or no blood-who cares? It's all ironclad, don't you know.
I am still amazed they haven't found anyone's DNA or fingerprints except RN's. As if no one else had ever been to that room. Apparently no one else had ever touched that rope either.

And what is so flippen strange, is that there had to be thousands of prints within that roo,. Anyone that ever stayed in the room, cleanted the room, moved the bed, turned on/off the light, went on to the balcony, opened, closed, locked or unlocked the doors and bolt to the balcony, opened and closed the door. That is just to name a few.

 

[sorrell skye]

Blood or no blood-who cares? It's all ironclad, don't you know.
I am still amazed they haven't found anyone's DNA or fingerprints except RN's. As if no one else had ever been to that room. Apparently no one else had ever touched that rope either.

Or touched those kitchen knives, or paint brushes, or tube of paint, or plastic trash bag, or the blue tee shirt, or the leg of the foot board, or the balcony railing or balcony doors.

Was the white wicker chair tested for fingerprints or DNA? Oh - never mind. It wasn't marked as evidence, even though it was overturned in a crime scene room.

 

[sorrell skye]

Come to think of it - what about the bed linens on the bed in the crime scene bedroom? Were they collected & tested for DNA?

 

[SunnieRN]

And yet this is an ironclad, open and shut case. :maddening: I really just can't understand how 4 LE agencies could think that people wouldn't question this. This was big news the entire 7 weeks they were 'investigating'.

Problem now is, that even if they try to gather more evidence from the scene, it will probably not be able to be introduced in a court, as it has been so long and a defendant could claim contamination, manufacturing of evidence, etc. etc. etc.

 

[deanna82437]

This is beginning to have many similarities to another recent case regarding time and evidence being lost and/or contaminated. :banghead: :sick:

 

[justice be served]

And yet this is an ironclad, open and shut case. :maddening: I really just can't understand how 4 LE agencies could think that people wouldn't question this. This was big news the entire 7 weeks they were 'investigating'.

Problem now is, that even if they try to gather more evidence from the scene, it will probably not be able to be introduced in a court, as it has been so long and a defendant could claim contamination, manufacturing of evidence, etc. etc. etc.

BBM
Sunnie, that is such an unfair truth which is so very hard to swallow. However, the energy I have seen from the good people posting on this forum will finally make this case prevail unlike others in the past - at least I hope for that.

 

[SunnieRN]

BBM
Sunnie, that is such an unfair truth which is so very hard to swallow. However, the energy I have seen from the good people posting on this forum will finally make this case prevail unlike others in the past - at least I hope for that.

I hope so Justice!! If we all work together, we have a chance!!

 

[Peaceful]

I also thought they always did a drawing & was surprised to see there wasn't one attached to the AR.

I'm even more surprised being I am certain they did provide one for MS but not for RZ. I'll look for the link.

 

[cynic]

Those hemorrhages at the sternocleidomastoid muscles are waaaaayyyyy too low to be attributed to the ligature, and there is no corresponding furrow over or near those hemorrhages AND the fracture of the cricoid!!! If it were attributed to the rope slipping, there should be corresponding abrasion of the skin, which is not noted.

As the ligature tightened it would essentially “grip” the upper portion of the SCM (among other things,) then as the body jerked down and away from the ligature there would be a considerable stretch on that muscle group and likely be the cause of that trauma.
The cricoid fracture is very suspicious, ITA.

 

[cynic]

What's your take on these findings then?

“The left sternocleidomastoid muscle has a 4-3/4 x 1-3/4 inch area of hemorrhage extending from the clavicle with softening and abundant hemorrhage within the muscle. On the right there is similar hemorrhage measuring 2 x 1-1/4 inch at the clavicle. Along the medial edge of the right sternocleidomastoid muscle, there are a 1 x ¼ inch hemorrhage (inferior, near the clavicle) and a ¼ inch diameter hemorrhage (more superior.)”
This is serious trauma to the left and right SCM muscles, and it indicates that there was a pulling force from above. This combined with the furrow marks, including the classic inverted V means that there is no way that RN fell head first for the entire distance. Had she done that, the trauma would have been on the other end of the SCM muscles.
It could still mean that she rotated in mid-air into an upright position before the running out of rope, although when all the evidence is considered, I do not believe that she could have gone over head first and sustain the injuries that are noted in the AR.

“There is a 3/8 inch blush of hemorrhage on the inferior portion of the left thyrohyoid muscle.”
“There is also a fracture of the base of the left superior horn of the thyroid cartilage, 5/8 inches from its tip.”
These two injuries I find to be the most consistent with the placement of the ligature.

The most suspicious injuries in RN’s neck, IMO are:
“There is a ¼ inch diameter hemorrhage of the left cricothyroid muscle and corresponding purple discoloration of the tracheal mucosa. There is a corresponding left cricoid fracture anteriorly. It is curved, non-displaced, and is situated approximately 1/8 inch from the anterior midline.”
This is by far the most suspicious injury

“There is a hemorrhagic fracture of the left arm of the hyoid bone with downward displacement of the distal end. The fracture is 3/8 inches from the tip. There is a small amount of hemorrhage associated with it.”


I also find the very extensive nature of the petechiae to be suspicious if it was all as a result of long drop hanging. There should have been more than enough constricting force to close off venous and arterial blood flow to RN’s head instantly. Petechiae are common and plentiful when only venous blood flow is constricted and arterial blood flow to the head continues.

 

[cynic]

Further, with respect to the extensive petechiae noted in the AR.
The long drop hanging should have cut venous and arterial flow to RN’s head instantly, preventing congestion and the formation of petechiae.

It has been reported that a tension of 33 lb on the ligature will occlude the trachea, a tension of 4.4 lb will compress the jugular veins, a tension of 8- 10 lb will occlude the carotid arteries and tension of 60 lb will compress the vertebral arteries.
Textbook Of Forensic Medicine And Toxicology: Principles And Practice, Krishan Vij MD, page 161

Another thing, by the way, the rope expert mentioned to me before he went out during the break was that the rope, when it went over the railing, there would have been 600 pounds of pressure when she hung there…
http://archives.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1109/08/ddhln.01.html

 

[IWannaKnow]

Cynic. Thank you so much for your interview of Dr. Wecht and your careful attention to reaching answers for our questions. You did a superb job.

I especially want to thank you for sticking with the question about the cricoid fracture and the lack of abrasions. I noticed that was not conclusively answered, the conversation went to the ligature furrow again. However, according to the AR, the widest point in the furrow was 1" on the left side on a 7/16" rope. He did not really provide an answer for how that fracture could have occurred without corresponding signs on the skin.

 

[sorrell skye]

Hello friends! I've been trying to make sense of some things over the past few days. I want to share some thoughts that have occurred to me that are related to the injuries to RZ's scalp & how they may (or may not) coincide with the information recently released in the SWs. I apologize in advance if the following scenarios may be disturbing. I feel it's necessary to explore all possible scenarios of RZ's death if we are to arrive @ the truth.

From the AR (page 13):

"On the right superior parietal scalp there is a 2 x 1 inch subgaleal hemorrhage. On the right lateral frontal scalp there are two subgaleal hemorrhages measuring 3/4 x 1/2 inch and 1/2 x 1/4 inch. On the right lateral frontotemporal scalp, there is a 3/8 inch diameter subgaleal hemorrhage."

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...TItOWM1Mi00NGE4LWEyZDgtMjc3OWUxZTYzYmY5&hl=en

We've read Dr. Wecht's statements to CBS 8 (and have also recently heard his expert commentary on Websleuth's Radio). IMO, his comments bear repeating. According to Dr. Cyril Wecht:

"A blow or blows sufficient to produce subgaleal, subscalpular hemorrhage could be sufficient for someone to be knocked out, just temporarily, not to produce any damage to the brain, not to cause any prolonged unconsciousness; but one cannot say," Dr. Wecht said. "They are clearly indicia of some kind of blunt force trauma. So, for someone to say there is no evidence whatsoever of any kind of a struggle is not correct."

http://www.cbs8.com/story/15388199/...ed-with-t-shirt-in-mouth?clienttype=printable

If the 4 subgaleal hemorrhages were the result of RZ possibly being struck by someone with a blunt instrument, these are the scenarios that make sense to me as to how the injuries may have occurred:

Since the scalp injuries were located on RZ's right scalp & the top of her head (again, speculating that RZ may have been struck by someone with a blunt instrument):

1. A left-handed person delivered the blows while directly facing her (indicating that the attacker was not concerned with being identified & intended on killing her after striking her).

2. RZ was lying down on her left side (right side of her head facing up) when she was attacked (indicating that she may have been caught by surprise while sleeping).

3. A right-handed person struck her from behind & to the right (indicating that the attacker sought the element of surprise while RZ was still awake & upright).

4. A right-handed person grabbed RZ by the hair on her left side & slammed the right side of RZ's head against a wall or some other surface 4 times (indicating rage and also the lack of fear of being ID'd because of the intention to kill her, but with the additional element of hoping to force a confession out of her for a perceived crime prior to killing her).

Point #4 above could explain item #10) clump of hair and/or item #14) hair in the search warrants (if the hair that was collected was RZ's hair).

http://www.10news.com/pdf/29245478/detail.html

As always, the above post is only an opinion, and is based upon currently available information, and is not intended to point blame @ anyone in particular.

 

[SunnieRN]

Wow!! Between Sorrell and Cynic, with some Iwannaknow thrown in for good measure, we have a variable gold mine of information at our fingertips!!

Sorrell, I hate to say it, but I see a good argument for your #4 above, as this murder has rage and anger written all over it.

 

[time]

Per lividity... I know others have more expertise on this, but just some info since we were discussing it in other threads.

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q...gk0JAn&sig=AHIEtbTMsYhvcK4iEO-7cmuQok9bIWTozg

University of Dundee: Department of Forensic Medicine [pdf]

Within intense areas of lividity, the accumulated blood may rupture small vessels to produce a scattering of punctate purple-black haemorrhages between one and several millimetres in diameter. These haemorrhages are seen most commonly over the lower legs of victims of suicidal hanging with complete suspension. These haemorrhagic loci should be distinguished from ante-mortem petechial haemorrhages.

Lividity developing in the viscera of a body lying prone and resulting in a purplish congestion of organs usually found pale at autopsy can be disconcerting to those unaccustomed to these changes.

Most texts agree that lividity attains its maximum intensity at around 12 hours post mortem, but there is some variation in descriptions of when it first appears, and when it is well developed. Adelson (Ref. 12 at p. 168) states that lividity "ordinarily becomes perceptible within 1/2 to 4 hours after death, is well developed within the next 3 or 4 hours, and attains its maximum degree between 8 and 12 hours post mortem". Polson (Ref. 10 at p. 13) states that "it varies in its time of onset, is ordinarily apparent within 1/2 to 2 hours after death, and its complete development is attained in from 6 to 12 hours". Camps (Ref. 6 at p. 81) states that it "first appears about 20-30 minutes after death as dull red patches which deepen, increase in intensity, and coalesce to form, within 6 to 10 hours, an extensive area of reddish-purple colour". Spitz and Fisher (Ref.
14 at p. 17) state that its "formation begins immediately after death, but it may not be perceptible for as much as two hours. It is usually well developed within 4 hours and reaches a maximum beween 8 and 12 hours. ... After 8 to 12 hours lividity becomes "fixed" and will remain where it originally formed". Simpson (Ref. 11 at p. 9) states that "it commences to develop within an hour or so of death, becoming marked in 5 or 6 hours".... <much more>

This probably doesn't answer any more complex questions of Rebecca being moved after death, but before lividity was completely fixed.

 

[time]

Old reference but a few paragraphs down on page 409 it talks about "if the position of a body is altered within a few hours after death" ... patches of lividity which have appeared may begin to disappear and develop on the most dependent surface of the body. If lividty is well developed, changing the position will not significantly alter it. (paraphrasing)

http://books.google.com/books?id=Mj...v=onepage&q=lividity position of body&f=false

 

[greenpalm]

Per lividity... I know others have more expertise on this, but just some info since we were discussing it in other threads.

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q...gk0JAn&sig=AHIEtbTMsYhvcK4iEO-7cmuQok9bIWTozg

University of Dundee: Department of Forensic Medicine [pdf]




This probably doesn't answer any more complex questions of Rebecca being moved after death, but before lividity was completely fixed.

Thanks for bringing this to this thread. It's not always clear to me where particular info is most useful.

 

[Morag]

From the daily beast/newsweek article:

She’s a beautiful girl, and she had this disturbing raised prominence on her upper right forehead.

I'm presuming that she had what might be called a bump. Does a lump like that continue to expand post-mortem?