Remains Discussion Part 4 UPDATE Caylee Tentatively ID'ed

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IF they do, the defense is facing a losing battle. They absolutely cannot provide proof of this woman's existance. I really don't think even JB could be that dumb?? The SA will rip that "defense" apart in a heartbeat.

I think they're going to go with Caylee died in an "accident" and Casey was scared, and couldn't come forward with the truth because of the fear she has of Cindy's wrath. She basically said as much in her first LE interview. IMO.

On point--they would have to provide something of proof a Zanny existed for any jury to have doubt. We are to believe that KC lost her phone with contact numbers (even old ones out of service), she had no address, no one in her circle or family ever saw her or met her, nothing on her computer referencing text messages... a lot to swallow.
I doubt Beaz will go there but--could be wrong.
 
Yeah, you're right. Unless they try and pin those searches on another family member (as LP has alluded to). All I know is the defense seems to have major roadblocks in their way, no matter which route they choose. Which totally works for me! LOL
I believe if you check the NG clip for that night, LP was referring to LA checking the"nasty" sites - the *advertiser censored* ones.
 
I still believe Casey had put Caylee in the car trunk after she put a chloroform rag over her face. She wanted to go over to Tone house (her neutral place-ha) after the big fight with her mom. When she called Tone he told her she could come but not the kid. Maybe sleuthers are right that she put the duct tape over her mouth in case she woke up so people wouldn't hear her screaming from the car trunk. Apparently, she never woke up if the duct tape was still attached. I have a 3 yr old daughter..and I know for sure if I put duct tape over her mouth (sick thought) she would rip it off!! Unless, they found the hands duct taped. So to me this says that she was unconscious when she taped her mouth and little Caylee, unfortunately sucombed to the chloroform and never woke.
Unless.....this is really terrible....Casey passed her out with chloroform, taped her mouth and then proceeded to break her neck...taping her mouth in case she made noise when she broke her neck...ugggh...
Still bizarre to me that she put her in the garbage bag naked???!!?? This to me suggests that she probably was originally clothed and Casey did drive home, back in the garage and removed Caylee. Maybe then she undressed her at home where no one could see. Just the thought of her undressing her dead little girls body really shows how twisted she is. But maybe that is the stinky little pair of pants that Cindy found of Caylee's in the car? But then Casey did make the comment about them not even finding the clothes yet. This leads me to believe that she disposed of the clothes somewhere possibly in the backyard? Why she would have borrowed the shovel???
As smart as she thinks she is.....I will be jumping up and down with joy if her fingerprint is found on the duct tape! Bam!! Done deal!!! Just try and go with the Zanny story now!! Watching all the tapes of her now and her lies...make me sick!! Casey you will get what you deserve!!! :behindbar :furious:
 
I think that they have 2 options-1. Tell the truth and try to throw yourself on the mercy of the court by claiming mental defect or 2. Stay with the Zanni story-KC said she had a key to the house (would expain evidence from the dogs, trash bag, vacuum cleaners, etc.)
I think to introduce a new story now would be totally stupid. They can't keep all the details straight now! But, who knows with new attorneys can come new ideas. One of the lawyers on LKL last night said she would be surprised if there is a trial in 2009!!:eek:

I think it's going to be a combination of throwing Cindy and George under the bus and how all of their 'emotional abuse' contributed to her 'defect.' And I think G and C will go along with it in the hopes to score some sympathy and a lower sentence. I cannot imagine going with the kidnapper story when it's clear she doesn't exist.

Personally, they will have a very hard time convincing a jury that she was so abused or mentally sick that this is in some way justified. Not when she told so many lies and went about her merry life so quickly afterwards.
 
I think the defense will go with attacking the foresnics - it will become "battle of the
experts ". This will likely backfire as it has on other cases - arguing minute scientific points will overwhelm jurors and they are likely to disregard all of it.
The nanny wont float , no phone numbers, address etc and neither will insanity - she was sane enough to commit other crimes .
 
The duct tape is not likely to have been used to reduce leakage or stage a kidnapping. First, if it was to reduce leakage, there would have been more tape around the eyes, nose, pelvic and anal area. There has been no indication more tape was present than around the skull in the area of the mouth. Second, there was no kidnapping story even hinted at by KC until she had a talk with LA on the evening of July 15. Then, that story grew with additional details as earlier details were disproved. Therefore, at the time of disposal of the body, KC had not yet fabricated the kidnapping story.

So, what is the probable explanation? The computer shows there was research into chloroform, making chloroform and neck breaking prior to the big Scamthony blow-out on June 15, 2008 over financial issues, child care issues, unfit mother issues, custody issues and independent living issues. Then the blow-out. KC left in a rage. There was duct tape and a knife found in the car. Friends also said when KC previously brought Caylee to parties, Caylee would "sleep" through any amount of noise or commotion around her. She may have been chloroformed. Chloroform is a short acting agent. A constant drip is needed to keep a person unconscious during a 1 or 2 hour surgery. A wire mesh mask covered with absorbant cotton is used to keep the damp chloroform away from the mouth and nose because it causes skin irritation and redness. Some prior photos of Caylee show redness around the mouth area. It also has nasty side effects. A person becoming conscious after being chloroformed will have nausea, vomiting and severe headaches. IF KC left the house in a rage on June 15, 2008, and headed to TonE's house, but took Caylee with her because of the unfit mother, child care/responsibility and impending custody challenge by CA; and some prior boyfriend had indicated it wasn't good to have Caylee present at a sleep-over with sexual activity, then the only place KC had for Caylee was the car, or the motel where she was seen pacing. KC wanted Caylee unconscious for a longer period of time than ever before. The trunk was saturated with a substantial amount of chloroform. The duct tape and knife were in the car. KC didn't want Caylee to be heard crying out or to vomit. There is a distince possibility that KC chloroformed Caylee, slapped the duct tape around her head and mouth tight enough to preserve soft tissue underneath (unwittingly), and left her in the trunk. KC's emotions about all the attention of her parents being "all about Caylee" underscores this willingness to hurt Caylee or extreme disregard and gross negligence in her care. Caylee died, perhaps of an overdose of chloroform, or by asphixiating on her own vomit (drowning in her own vomit), which can happen to a semi-conscious patient regaining conscious. That is why medical people watch them in post-op and keep the airway clear. In this event, not only did this action meet the legal definitions of premeditation and first degree homicide, it was no accidental overdose because administering chloroform in the first instance to achieve unconsciousness of a toddler rather than provide the legal duty of parental care is by itself extreme negligence and physical child abuse.

In light of the above, I am also thinking this probably meets the legal definition of torture, depending on Florida caselaw. The chloroform and duct tape uses were torture.

I think you are 100% on the spot, couldn't have said it better.
 
Accident while drugging her baby w/ chloroform still puts it at "felony murder."


And that brings up the whole question again, of whether or not the DP will be placed back on the table, since as Brini knows but I just wanted to add to the post :) it carries the potential for the death penalty if it happened as an accident but in that way...during aggrevated child abuse.


The accident approach may not be the big "out" it could be under different circumstances.

jmho
 
I have no idea where to ask this question, but since this thread is about remains, I think it might be okay here.

At the hearing the other morning, the decision was that the crime scene would not be 'preserved' or 'held' for the defense team. At least I think that's what the decision was lol. My head is swimming with all that's going on.

My question: can the defense team rope it off or anything like that? Or will it just be open to everybody/anybody? What happens if they try to rope it off or keep people away from it? I'm sure a lot of searchers not to mention the curious will want to look through the area as well.

TIA! :blowkiss:

I am NOT the right one to answer this but from what I thought I heard they will NOT abandon the crime scene without notifying the defense...there was quite a bit of discussion about that at the "emergency" hearing......maybe someone else with a faster uptake than I have can add to that .
 
I agree. I was thinking. What if Casey decided to go out clubbing or "whatever", used chloroform so Caylee would sleep, duct taped her mouth as a preventive measure so Caylee would not have been heard? As far as tying up Caylee's hands (and/or feet), we a talking a two year old. I think Casey gambled with Caylee making physical noise with her Little arms and legs. She could have place Caylee in the trunk of her car so that Caylee would not be noticed within the car proper by anyone. It's very possible she left this child in the car for hours and hours....
Just tossing it out there.

That is exactly what I had been thinking.
I most likely posted this very early on.
As soon as I heard the word Chloroform.
 
I have thought about whether Caylee's hands were tied, it seems to me that she would have tried to get the tape off of her mouth. That could be something that would have lead them back to the house so quickly as well. Just trying to think of what was in that bag.
 
So, it comes down to this:

If the body is positively ID'd as Caylee, Casey would have no reason not to tell the truth, unless she herself is guilty. I mean, if kidnappers took Caylee and did this to her and Casey, as some maintained, had been too frightened to talk for fear of Caylee's life ... well, now she could speak.

I think we all know what will happen, though.
 
So, it comes down to this:

If the body is positively ID'd as Caylee, Casey would have no reason not to tell the truth, unless she herself is guilty. I mean, if kidnappers took Caylee and did this to her and Casey, as some maintained, had been too frightened to talk for fear of Caylee's life ... well, now she could speak.

I think we all know what will happen, though.



Yeah, we do. We will hear nothing.

Interesting that TES searched the other side of Suburban drive right before pulling out 9-3-2008. Cindy was working hard to push TES out because she knew they were close.
 
To keep her quiet if she woke up?

OR

To stage a kidnapping, remember "she"(seems like she was referring to Zanny IMO) according to KC had a key to the A's house.

I still think they will try to stick to the Zanny story IMO.

I have often thought that she left the car at Amscot with her purse inside in hopes the car (with the smell) would be stolen. Leaving her purse not only would pose as bait for somebody to break into the car, but also would make it appear as she didn't leave the car of her own free will. She could later claim Caylee had been kidnapped and if Caylee's remains were found then the "kidnapper" would be blamed. I think the tape on the baby's mouth was part of this plan.

The fly in KC's ointment was that the car wasn't stolen but instead was towed. This left KC not being able to explain why the car had an odor. What will blow this zfg story out of the picture is if the only prints found on the duct tape are KC's. She should have watched CourtTV instead of CSI.
 
CA says there 3000 ZFG's and that they haven't found the right one. If that doesn't work then they'll probably try the illegal alien route. No paperwork to track her with. If they go with the accident and CA's wrath, then they are still going to have to explain how KC didn't show any emotion at all to anyone! Her fear of her mother was so great that shewas ready to send an innocent person to prison for murder? I don't see how that garners any sympathy from a jury. Basically KC and her stories are FUBAR!!:behindbar

Since KC can't provide one address where Zanni ever lived, worked, hung out or knew anyone in Orlando, or show one phone call ever made to or from Zanni or any proof that Zanni ever babysat Caylee, I think the Zanni as a real babysitter/kidnapper defense is a dud. They could try the Amy and Jesse are really 'Zanni' defense but Casey would have to testify to that, would be exposed as having lied about that before, and we all know what a liar and thankless friend she is already. The jury will get that right away too. Her friends have all taken lie detectors and apparently passed. If you put KC on the box, the box would explode. Jury will be hip to that pretty quicky as well. MO, the defense is probably still trying to deal. However, what the prosecution really, really wanted has just been found. They might take a confession but it will be for a lot more years now. The prosecution might not want any deal depending on what evidence they'll be looking at in the next month to six weeks. KC is definitely mental. That would appear to be the best defence, however legally insane isn't going to fly for this one, so my guess is they throw the Ant Family under the bus and go with the poor, poor Casey pushed to her limits by a hideously disfunctional family explanation of a creature who just snapped while hoping for the best. Oh, they'll try to discredit the police, et al, but, again imo, good luck with that. I think the police have done a pretty darn good job ON TAPE for all the world to watch for a 'mother' who gave them absolutely nothing to work with.
 
Apparently, she never woke up if the duct tape was still attached.

You know what, if it were an accident, then any normal mother would yank that tape off and try to revive her. Then again, normal mothers don't duct tape their toddler's mouths.

I am going to go with intentional 100%, all the way.
 
I have often thought that she left the car at Amscot with her purse inside in hopes the car (with the smell) would be stolen. Leaving her purse not only would pose as bait for somebody to break into the car, but also would make it appear as she didn't leave the car of her own free will. She could later claim Caylee had been kidnapped and if Caylee's remains were found then the "kidnapper" would be blamed. I think the tape on the baby's mouth was part of this plan.

The fly in KC's ointment was that the car wasn't stolen but instead was towed. This left KC not being able to explain why the car had an odor. What will blow this zfg story out of the picture is if the only prints found on the duct tape are KC's. She should have watched CourtTV instead of CSI.

:clap::clap::clap:Damn car thieves-where's one when you need one!!:clap::clap:
 
I still believe Casey had put Caylee in the car trunk after she put a chloroform rag over her face. She wanted to go over to Tone house (her neutral place-ha) after the big fight with her mom. When she called Tone he told her she could come but not the kid. Maybe sleuthers are right that she put the duct tape over her mouth in case she woke up so people wouldn't hear her screaming from the car trunk. Apparently, she never woke up if the duct tape was still attached. I have a 3 yr old daughter..and I know for sure if I put duct tape over her mouth (sick thought) she would rip it off!! Unless, they found the hands duct taped. So to me this says that she was unconscious when she taped her mouth and little Caylee, unfortunately sucombed to the chloroform and never woke.
Unless.....this is really terrible....Casey passed her out with chloroform, taped her mouth and then proceeded to break her neck...taping her mouth in case she made noise when she broke her neck...ugggh...
Still bizarre to me that she put her in the garbage bag naked???!!?? This to me suggests that she probably was originally clothed and Casey did drive home, back in the garage and removed Caylee. Maybe then she undressed her at home where no one could see. Just the thought of her undressing her dead little girls body really shows how twisted she is. But maybe that is the stinky little pair of pants that Cindy found of Caylee's in the car? But then Casey did make the comment about them not even finding the clothes yet. This leads me to believe that she disposed of the clothes somewhere possibly in the backyard? Why she would have borrowed the shovel???
As smart as she thinks she is.....I will be jumping up and down with joy if her fingerprint is found on the duct tape! Bam!! Done deal!!! Just try and go with the Zanny story now!! Watching all the tapes of her now and her lies...make me sick!! Casey you will get what you deserve!!! :behindbar :furious:

I have not heard YET that the baby was found naked.
But I do remember something about Casey saying they did not find Caylee's cloths yet. This is a sure indication that Casey knew that the baby was naked.
She is an actress if ever I had seen one: during her parents visit to jail, she was .... oh so sad....I cant wait till we see Caylee again... BS :furious:
I still can not get over that she went dancing after she killed her.
I still can't get over the fact that Cindy refused to give the Search team a garment of Caylees for the Dogs to get her Scent.
I still can't get over the fact that Lee disappeared for so long.....
 
So, it comes down to this:

If the body is positively ID'd as Caylee, Casey would have no reason not to tell the truth, unless she herself is guilty
. I mean, if kidnappers took Caylee and did this to her and Casey, as some maintained, had been too frightened to talk for fear of Caylee's life ... well, now she could speak.

I think we all know what will happen, though.

Pathological liars quite often do not have any reason to lie. They have no need to feel the lie is justified.

They will lie about the shape of a big cloud. They just do it. It's their "normal."
 
Hey songline!! You are so right!!! By her saying "they haven't even found her clothes yet" is the Bombshell! She left her dead body naked! Busted!! Guess she was bound to have one little slip up in her tangled web of lies!! :woohoo:
 
I have often thought that she left the car at Amscot with her purse inside in hopes the car (with the smell) would be stolen. Leaving her purse not only would pose as bait for somebody to break into the car, but also would make it appear as she didn't leave the car of her own free will. She could later claim Caylee had been kidnapped and if Caylee's remains were found then the "kidnapper" would be blamed. I think the tape on the baby's mouth was part of this plan.

The fly in KC's ointment was that the car wasn't stolen but instead was towed. This left KC not being able to explain why the car had an odor. What will blow this zfg story out of the picture is if the only prints found on the duct tape are KC's. She should have watched CourtTV instead of CSI.

Again, I don't think the creature plans very well if this was a plan. She called TonE and he picked her up at Amscot and saw the car which she told him that her dad would take care of. Later, she told him her dad WAS taking care of it and it was in the shop. So, if she had planned a kidnapping from that point, her lies would have been discovered because TonE saw her at Amscott, had a whole story about car repairs and George never took her car in for service. She also went back to TonE's and hung out on and off for three weeks which would have further defeated any car-jacking story. There have been various reports of the awful smell. She smelled it too, texted people about her dad running over animals, whatever, told Lee two 'dead squirrles crawled into the car,' (must have been zombie squirrels otherwise they couldn't have crawled, being dead and all.) If a burgler broke in for the purse, I doubt he'd like the smell any more than anyone else. Why would anyone steal a car that smelled like that? More like, she intended to go back and get the car sometime, maybe stage something, maybe even expand her crime, then come up with some *advertiser censored* and bull, but she got too busy cooking lasagna, having sex with several guys and stealing from her girlfriend to buy big, white sunglasses. She probably didn't think that the car would be towed. I bet she intended to go back, someday, after a couple months, when she could come up with something....
 
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