Remains Discussion Part 4 UPDATE Caylee Tentatively ID'ed

[Coolmomof4]

If this has been addressed sorry please move or delete.

LP stated that he thinks she accidently OD'd her with chloroform. If she was knocking her out, why was her mouth duct taped. I am sure all you sleuthers have a logical explanation, I am just not getting it???

TYIA!

Just in case this hasn't been answered:

His theory is that the tape was placed on her mouth to keep her quiet if she woke up.

 

[Dolphinmomcca]

Oh, have no worries. Casey will NOT be going to the same place Caylee did.

But until I have 100% proof that she wont end up in Heaven, then I dont even want the chance that poor baby will have to see her MOMSTER again.

 

[redheadedgal]

Agreed, The placement of the duct tape over the mouth at this point proves 100% that this was not an accident. If it were, even if it was an accidental overdose or suffocation because of the tape, anyone would have pulled the tape off to at least determine of the child was breathing. It's remaining presense clearly indicates that whoever put it there did not expect the child to be breathing or intended that the child would not be breathing.

the tape rather strongly proves that the death was probably not an accidental or even callous event. It was deliberate, and death was the expected outcome. Which pretty much means premeditated murder.

There is no logical, reasonable or believable reason for that duct tape to have been placed there post mortem, and there is no innocent reason or theory of death in which it would have remained in place.

since it appears KC tried to make it look like caylee was taken from her (i.e. kidnapped by zanny), i'm going with the duct tape placed over caylee's mouth post mortem to indicate a kidnapping. i think LP is wrong - sorry.

 

[LLH]

Has anyone watched the movies KC rented at blockbuster that night? I suspect she was gleaning ideas on how to set up her story and the disposal of Caylee.

 

[TakeNote]

Omg.....KC has already mentioned that book! Remember when she said she had talked to Caylee on the phone and she was not afraid , she was cheerful and she was talking about her book? KC told her to put an adult on the phone and the call ended. She has already connected that book to the non-existent nanny.!........does that make sense? or am I completely whacked by all this???:crazy:
I'm sorry , it would take me a while to find the exact thread of that alleged phone call.....but I'm sure you all remember

YES.....that is what I was talking about.....I think LE has really dissected every little word that KC has said....That is why LE said they have certain things they are looking for.....KC really has tried to cover her self.....and CA has helped with that......CA asked KC if anyone had ever been in the house.....and KC said remember I told you she had a key.......I took that as they are making sure that if anything is found with Caylee that linked to the house.....they could say.....the nanny had a key......and remember CA said to LE that the nanny could be code for someone else......

but....her words could come back and burn her as well....
IF:
caylee had no clothes on......and other things she may had said as well

 

[Irish_Eyes]

My thoughts only, feedback appreciated:

1) KC was looking on missing children sites, just like she (or someone) researched chloroform, etc. A murder staged to look like something else was her plan all along. That means the kidnapping theory was planned before she talked to Lee on 7/15. Also, she knew before she talked to Lee that a ZG had visited Sawgrass which is why she took LE there.

2) Why take LE on all these wild goose chases? Now that we know the body was so close to her home, I think KC just wanted them the heck away from Caylee's resting place. Sure, let's go to Sawgrass, Universal, anywhere but the area near home and Caylee.

3) Did I hear they took pesticide from the home? I wonder if there was pesticide residue on the bag. (Some pesticides don't wash away with water, right?) Or if not all the bag was entirely submerged, this could still be the case. Follow me here...if GA treated his yard with pesticide (pretty common), and the bag at somepoint was placed in the yard (possibly on shovel borrowing day?), even briefly, it would have left enough of a scent for cadaver dogs to hit on it, and pesticide residue would be on the bag. By taking the pesticide from the A's home, they can compare to see if the pesticide on the bag came from the A's yard.

4) I think the duct tape was done post mortem. First, no one was home at the house (if that's where the death occurred) to hear anyone cry. Even the next door neighbors were still on vacation. The duct tape was found in the trunk, right? If used in the home, why bring it to the trunk? You wouldn't need it anymore, right? I think it was applied shortly before disposal, when her car was backed into the garage.

4) I think body disposal was 6/19. If something happens to Caylee on 6/16, and body farm puts body in car for 2.6 days, then this also jives with when Caylee stopped backing her car into the garage, roughly.

5) I don't think KC was planning on abandoning her car. We know she really was out of gas, because when George picked up the car he had to put gas in just to get it home.
After she takes TonE to the airport on Monday, she asks Amy to borrow a gas can, and they go buy one at Target. By this time, the car is already towed, but Casey must not know that yet. Wonder when she found that out?

 

[chefmom]

I dont want to see KC get Death.......because she doesnt deserve to reunite with Caylee on the other side. Let the poor baby rest in peace, and let KC spend "ETERNITY IN JAIL"

I don't think we have to worry about KC and Caylee reuniting on the other side. Caylee is in heaven! KC is going in the opposite direction!
:furious:

 

[fabvab]

since it appears KC tried to make it look like caylee was taken from her (i.e. kidnapped by zanny), i'm going with the duct tape placed over caylee's mouth post mortem to indicate a kidnapping. i think LP is wrong - sorry.

Pardon if this has been asked. I wonder if they will be able to tell if the tape was put on their before death or after death?

 

[scandi]

Pardon if this has been asked. I wonder if they will be able to tell if the tape was put on their before death or after death?

Good question Fabvab, I have no idea, and am having a hard time figuring out how they could.

I read a post here where it was thrown out the tape was put on her mouth to close it from bodily fluids coming out. That does make sense, as by then the odor would be strong - after 2 1/2 days - and maybe in finally getting the package ready to dispose of Casey noticed fluids dribbling from the mouth.

In that case they would be able to tell it was post mortem as that dribble would make a change on the tape. Maybe;} I really don't know, but maybe someone here will. You'd be amazed.


PS: Once posting here, long ago, I was discussing the little crystal stones that were found attached to the strings of Laci's pants when she was found, and the ingredients needed to create these stones including lime.

By jove, here came a poster who was working in a lime mine. Did we ever have a fascinating convo!

 

[butwhatif?]

http://www.abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=6448060&page=1

God watch the video that says to the right WATCH TRAGIC FIND IN CAYLEE CASE

Thanks for the link.

Do you think that shot of LE moving the playhouse is from the new search warrant, or is it old footage?
If its new, then that has to be some kind of clue as to COD, or at least the location of the crime. ???????

 

[okiedokietoo]

might be wrong but maybe LE and FBI found the clothes in or near the bag - the clothes Caylee was wearing in the Video from Fathers Day. I am thinking this because there was supposed to be a fight that day when CA got back from visiting GGrandfather and then KC left with Caylee and stayed in the car in the neighborhood and GA did not see them on morning of the 16th. Hence, the rumor of obstructing Justice against A's might be possibly true

 

[not_my_kids]

Just thought I would share if this hasn't already been posted. This is the route between the Anthony house and the body dump as seen from a car.
http://www.wesh.com/video/18267742/index.html

 

[JoAnn_W]

Does anyone think that the body is too well preserved to fit the Casey-killer timeline? Could it be why the LE went nuts and took so much out of the house? I've heard that pesticides can preserve a body. They did remove pesticides from the Anthony home.

JoAnn_W

 

[treeseeker]

If the tissue on the duct tape is preserved enough, ME will possibly be able to tell whether the tape was placed before or after death. The damage to the tissue caused by the tape (adhesive, pressure) would be different alive vs dead. ME may also be able to detect suffocation via tissue. My understanding.

 

[llc3guys]

Just thought I would share if this hasn't already been posted. This is the route between the Anthony house and the body dump as seen from a car.
http://www.wesh.com/video/18267742/index.html

It was also reported that Casey and others used the same wooded area as a party spot when of school age. There are trails throughout and it is easily accessible from the other side of her backyard fence.

http://maps.live.com/?mkt=en-us#JnE...xNy4xNDA3OTAzOTMzMTY2JTdlLTExOS45NzA3MDMxMjU=

Just click "Bird's Eye", use mouse wheel to adjust, and grab & drag map to move it.

 

[miabellamoure]

My theory on the duct tape is that it was applied postmortem to reduce leakage from Caylee's body. Simple trick you can pick up from watching CSI...or having a mother who is a "decomposition nurse".

This was my thinking too when the mention of the mouth being duct taped.

The only reason I thought of this was from a memory of being at the death bed of a dear friend, who in the last hour of her life, fluids literally began seeping from her mouth.

If KC was attempting to close the mouth of Caylee with duct tape postmortem, she may have been doing so to close off an orifice to prevent the escape of bodily fluids, maggots & flies, or emanating odors .

I would also think that it could be determined forensically whether the duct tape was placed there pre or postmortem.

She was obviously contending with some or all of these problems while Caylee was concealed in her trunk.

 

[CASuzk]

The level of decomposition would be in line with a body in a Florida swamp area.

There is a higher level of tannic acid in swampy areas where plant matter rots and tannic acid is a preservative.

 

[okiedokietoo]

From what I understand - the Defense can't introduce a new theory (for instance, blah blah took Caylee and KC made up the name ZG or someone stole her from KC and threatened her and she hasn't heard from them since etc) Defense can only go with what KC has told LE unless KC takes the stand in order for The State to be able to cross her on stand. All Defense can do at this time is to dispute any evidence, and discredit any witnesses so that's why she has the well known "Dream Team".

 

[eve314]

I have no idea where to post this, and I profusely apologise if this is offensive. I know there has been a lot of discussion about duck-tape and pesticides and it's it's connection to the Anthony home.

However, I wondered if they discovered animal hair or secretions on the remains, like if their pets licked Caylee at some point when she died.

 

[Friday]

The duct tape is not likely to have been used to reduce leakage or stage a kidnapping. First, if it was to reduce leakage, there would have been more tape around the eyes, nose, pelvic and anal area. There has been no indication more tape was present than around the skull in the area of the mouth. Second, there was no kidnapping story even hinted at by KC until she had a talk with LA on the evening of July 15. Then, that story grew with additional details as earlier details were disproved. Therefore, at the time of disposal of the body, KC had not yet fabricated the kidnapping story.

So, what is the probable explanation? The computer shows there was research into chloroform, making chloroform and neck breaking prior to the big Scamthony blow-out on June 15, 2008 over financial issues, child care issues, unfit mother issues, custody issues and independent living issues. Then the blow-out. KC left in a rage. There was duct tape and a knife found in the car. Friends also said when KC previously brought Caylee to parties, Caylee would "sleep" through any amount of noise or commotion around her. She may have been chloroformed. Chloroform is a short acting agent. A constant drip is needed to keep a person unconscious during a 1 or 2 hour surgery. A wire mesh mask covered with absorbant cotton is used to keep the damp chloroform away from the mouth and nose because it causes skin irritation and redness. Some prior photos of Caylee show redness around the mouth area. It also has nasty side effects. A person becoming conscious after being chloroformed will have nausea, vomiting and severe headaches. IF KC left the house in a rage on June 15, 2008, and headed to TonE's house, but took Caylee with her because of the unfit mother, child care/responsibility and impending custody challenge by CA; and some prior boyfriend had indicated it wasn't good to have Caylee present at a sleep-over with sexual activity, then the only place KC had for Caylee was the car, or the motel where she was seen pacing. KC wanted Caylee unconscious for a longer period of time than ever before. The trunk was saturated with a substantial amount of chloroform. The duct tape and knife were in the car. KC didn't want Caylee to be heard crying out or to vomit. There is a distince possibility that KC chloroformed Caylee, slapped the duct tape around her head and mouth tight enough to preserve soft tissue underneath (unwittingly), and left her in the trunk. KC's emotions about all the attention of her parents being "all about Caylee" underscores this willingness to hurt Caylee or extreme disregard and gross negligence in her care. Caylee died, perhaps of an overdose of chloroform, or by asphixiating on her own vomit (drowning in her own vomit), which can happen to a semi-conscious patient regaining conscious. That is why medical people watch them in post-op and keep the airway clear. In this event, not only did this action meet the legal definitions of premeditation and first degree homicide, it was no accidental overdose because administering chloroform in the first instance to achieve unconsciousness of a toddler rather than provide the legal duty of parental care is by itself extreme negligence and physical child abuse.

In light of the above, I am also thinking this probably meets the legal definition of torture, depending on Florida caselaw. The chloroform and duct tape uses were torture.

Pardon my bad memory, but was duct tape actually found in her car? I don't remember that.