GUILTY SC - Nine killed in Emanuel AME Church shooting, Charleston, 2015; Dylann Roof GUILTY #3

[CARIIS]

BBM That's very interesting and something good to know.

Thanks for the article

Ha your scaring me - why is that good to know!!!

Kidding kidding!!

 

[CARIIS]

I continue having a hard time understanding this. He said he did it. The world knows what he did that night.

Why does the system have to go through all this "proving" with evidence?

It seems to me the question should only be , do 12 citizens think what he acknowledged doing deserve life in prison or DP.

What's the purpose of "pleading" if the same exhausting and expensive show goes on? Hey plead not guilty then and let the show proceed.

I think this is difficult for me because I cannot remember someone who plead guilty- prior to this dog and pony show, I suppose I thought if someone plead guilty we kinda move right along!

He is clearly not psychotic, not delusional, where there would be some "question" about his declaration of guilt.

It makes just no sense to me, why are they trying to prove bullets - he said I shot them with my 45. What else is needed?

He (relativily) outlined his belief systems, never claiming that a meteorite from Pluto implanted these beliefs into his right eye!!

It's like if he recanted in 10 years even then it seems like one could back a play the tape as refresher.

There seems to be absolutely no difference between innocent or guilty? If there is one , what is it?

If anyone knows why system is this doing this pls enlighten me - it denies common sense

jmo

 

[CARIIS]

An opinion:

The Ease of Dylann Roof

"...Dylann Roof possessed, alongside his racist and murderous inclinations, ease. There was no forced entry into the AME church that night. Dylann Roof walked in, aware and confident that he would find no real resistance. He sat with congregants, and then, later that evening, he murdered them. Their deaths were unexpected if not exactly shocking — sudden, vicious terror unleashed on black bodies is a very old story — but what lingers for me, the hard kernel at the core of Dylann Roof’s behavior, both at the scene of the massacre and in every official glimpse we have been given of him since, is that ease.

At no point in the aftermath of killing nine black people in a church did it look like Dylann Roof was in fear for his life...

On the confession tape, the FBI agent says the church members had welcomed him. Roof interrupts and says he wouldn’t exactly call it “a welcome.” It wasn’t enough that they had not questioned his presence: He seemed to want even more kindness from them...

And following the murders, he was still in possession of that ease. That’s why he could sit in the interrogation room and laugh as he mentioned the murder weapon, his Glock .45. It’s why, when the agents told him he had in fact killed nine people, not the “four or five” he had initially reported, he replied with a joking incredulity, “Are you guys lying to me?” It’s why, when the FBI agent sought consent so they could search his vehicle, Roof asked if he had to give it (in the end, he declined to sign the consent form). It’s why, when the agents said they were going to take a photo of him, Roof mussed up his hair self-consciously and said, “I don’t look too good right now,” and moments later added, “I sure wish I could take a shower.” He was not afraid. He had not been worried, while walking into that church or while walking out after firing 77 shots. He had not been bothered, driving down back roads until he was out of state, moseying down the highway, idly wondering about heading to Nashville since he’d never been there before. He had not been especially worried he might die while in police custody..."

https://www.buzzfeed.com/legacy_mob...of-dylann-roof?utm_term=.wh7ErZ070#.sa0j6n989
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neat post !!

 

[CARIIS]

I don't know the answer to that, so I did a little research...:facepalm:.. and here's what I was able to find about pro se and appeals: (it's a lot to read tho')
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First some ineffective of counsel articles for background, if anyone is interested

§12 Claim for Ineffective Assistance of Counsel
CRIMINAL DEFENDANT’S HANDBOOK

"...The “defendant need not show that counsel’s deficient conduct more likely than not altered the outcome of the case,” Strickland, at 693, but rather “must show that there is a reasonable probability that, but for the counsel’s unprofessional errors, the result of the proceedings would have been different.” Strickland, at 695-96.

Prejudice requirement does not require petitioner to prove that he would not have been found guilty. Prejudice in pro se motions is not strictly construed. In cases which “counsel entirely fails to subject the prosecution’s case to meaningful adversarial testing,” ineffectiveness will be presumed under United States v. Cronic, 466 U.S. 648, 80 L.Ed.2d.657, 140 S.Ct. 2039 (1984)..."

https://libertyinternational.wordpr...-claim-for-ineffective-assistance-of-counsel/
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Strickland v. Washington

"Strickland v. Washington, 466 U.S. 668 (1984), was a decision by the Supreme Court of the United States that established the standard for determining when a criminal defendant's Sixth Amendment right to counsel is violated by that counsel's inadequate performance.[1]

The Court, in a decision by Justice O'Connor, established a two-part test for an ineffective assistance of counsel claim: a criminal defendant must show two things:

Counsel's performance fell below an objective standard of reasonableness.

Counsel's performance gives rise to a reasonable probability that if counsel had performed adequately, the result would have been different...

Marshall took issue with the Court's conclusion that the same standard for ineffectiveness should apply in a capital sentencing proceeding that applies at an ordinary trial. The capital sentencing process is intended to be especially reliable, and "reliability in the imposition of the death sentence can be approximated only if the sentencer is fully informed of all possible relevant information about the individual defendant whose fate it must determine." The defendant's attorney is responsible for doing that. That and in light of the "severity and irrevocability of the sanction at stake," the standard for effective assistance in capital sentencing proceedings must be especially stringent. Accordingly, Marshall believed that a person on death row seeking relief from his death sentence on grounds of ineffective assistance should not have to show a reasonable probability that he would not have received a death sentence if counsel had presented more mitigating evidence..."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strickland_v._Washington

More detailed:

Strickland v. Washington
466 U.S. 668 (1984)

https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/466/668/case.html
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Some articles to read, about pro se/appeals, if you are interested:

INEFFECTIVE ASSISTANCE OF COUNSEL

"...An inmate who represents himself is not entitled to claim ineffective assistance of counsel on appeal..."

https://californiainnocenceproject.org/issues-we-face/ineffective-assistance-of-counsel/
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Self-Representation and Ineffective Assistance of Counsel: How Trial Judges Can Find Their Way Through

"...A defendant’s technical legal knowledge is irrelevant to determining whether his or her waiver is knowing and intelligent...

...once a trial judge determines that a defendant’s waiver is knowing and intelligent, the judge may not proceed to inquire into whether there are other “unusual circumstances” which would deny a fair trial to a defendant who represents himself or herself...

...a trial judge may properly deny self-representation based on “unusual circumstances” such as the state of the defendant’s health, as long as the “unusual circumstance” is something other than lack of legal knowledge...

Hybrid Representation

Often a defendant seeking self-representation will request that standby counsel be appointed to assist the defendant in conducting the defense. The appointment of standby counsel under Faretta is constitutionally permissible, but not constitutionally required. Standby counsel may be denied when the defendant refuses to cooperate with the trial court or with court-appointed counsel in their efforts to provide legal assistance.21 But a judge should use caution in denying standby counsel, because a defendant may waive the right to self-representation if the defendant later abandons his or her initial request to proceed pro se...

Even if standby counsel is appointed, the defendant must be permitted to control the organization and content of his or her defense, make motions, argue points of law, participate in voir dire, question witnesses, and address the court and the jury at appropriate points. The defendant has the entire responsibility for his or her own defense...

...the judge must not permit standby counsel’s participation over the defendant’s objection to substantially interfere with any significant tactical decisions, or to control the questioning of witnesses, or to speak on any matter of importance. Outside the presence of the jury, the defendant must be freely permitted to address the court on his or her own behalf...

...A defendant does not have the right to partially represent himself or herself and at the same time be partially represented by counsel. Neither does a defendant have a constitutional right to choreograph the attorney’s appearance...

It is understandable that trial judges might be inclined to resist allowing a defendant to represent himself or herself at trial. To allow such pro se representation requires an exorbitant amount of patience and vigilance on the part of the judge as well as the prosecutor. It can also generate tremendous anxiety in victims of violent crimes at the prospect of being subjected to questioning by their attackers. Even so, the Sixth Amendment has guaranteed that a defendant who makes a knowing and intelligent waiver of counsel has the right to represent himself or herself. This is true even though it “seems to cut against the grain of [the United States Supreme Court]’s decisions holding that the Constitution requires that no accused can be convicted and imprisoned unless he has been accorded the right to assistance of counsel."

https://www.floridabar.org/divcom/jn/jnjournal01.nsf/Author/1B521E5F44DFD27385256ADB005D616A
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Pro Se Defendants and Ineffective Assistance of “Counsel”

"Can a defendant who chooses to represent himself subsequently argue that he received ineffective assistance of “counsel”? No, as illustrated by the recent case of State v. Brunson, __ N.C. App. __ (2012). The defendant in Brunson elected to represent himself. He was convicted of sexually abusing his stepdaughter. He appealed, arguing in part that he received ineffective assistance of counsel. The court of appeals rejected this argument, citing State v. Petrick, 186 N.C. App. 597 (2007), for the proposition that “a defendant who elects to represent himself cannot thereafter complain that the quality of his own defense amounted to a denial of effective assistance of counsel.” The rule expressed in Brunson and Petrick is universal. Faretta v. California, 422 U.S. 806, 834 n.46 (1975) (“[A] defendant who elects to represent himself cannot thereafter complain that the quality of his own defense amounted to a denial of ‘effective assistance of counsel.”’) 40 Geo. L.J. Ann. Rev. Crim. Proc. 515 n. 1601 (2011) (collecting cases from multiple jurisdictions, all of which support the statement that “a pro se defendant may not claim his or her own ineffectiveness as a ground for appeal”).

The basic rationale for this rule is twofold. First, courts reason that a defendant who has made his bed (by electing to represent himself and thereby retaining direct control over his defense) must lie in it (by accepting the consequences of his decision). Second, courts worry that allowing pro se defendants to claim ineffective assistance would give defendants an incentive to sabotage their own trials..."

http://nccriminallaw.sog.unc.edu/pro-se-defendants-and-ineffective-assistance-of-counsel/
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Dylann Roof Will Represent Himself In Charleston Church Shooting Trial

"...A common question that comes up in cases like this is whether a Defendant may use the fact that they represented themselves and made errors during the trial that arguably amount to ineffective assistance of counsel in any appeal of a guilty verdict. The short answer to that question is no. In both Ferretta and other cases, the Supreme Court, along with numerous lower courts. ruled that one price the Defendant pays for choosing to represent themselves is that they will be assumed to be as aware of the relevant laws and procedures as any licensed attorney and that they will be held to the same standards of conduct as such an attorney. For this reason, a Judge who allows a Defendant to represent themselves in a case that would otherwise require counsel will often give the Defendant an extensive speech on the record explaining the consequences of waiving the right of representation, part of which includes waiving the right to raise ‘ineffective assistance’ on appeal. This is similar to the rules that establish that an attorney representing a criminal defendant cannot raise this issue on appeal if it appears from the record that the trial attorney was deliberately acting in a manner that would create an ‘ineffective assistance’ defense on appeal, nor can a self-represented defendant raise as an error on appeal the fact that the Court granted his request for self-representation unless it appears from the record that the request should not have been granted because the Defendant was not competent at the time of trial..."

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/dy...-himself-in-charleston-church-shooting-trial/
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BUTTTT: Bruck represented Roof in the guilt phase of the trial, so, in reality, I assume, he can say, if he wanted to, for whatever reason, that he was ineffectively assisted in that phase.

For some reason, like before, when he stated his plan to do this, it got softened by the judge.

I can not imagine him having the belief in himself that he could " do this" without appearing dumb.

I kinda get the sense (common in LD kids) self-esteem stuff and notions about being "stupid" will ultimately lead to it not happening.

At some level it feels as if those involved know he has some limitations and are just letting it ride along until it gets to the point where it happens (represent himself) or gets "basically stopped again.


If it was a convicted lawyer that might make some sense, but an individual who has clearly stopped developing years ago, just seems like it won't really happen.

If it does I would think the judge will be very hard on him, not wanting to waste his time with a child representing himself

moo

 

[CARIIS]

If he represents himself, he cannot claim ineffective assistance of counsel. It doesn't matter how inadequately he argues his case or pleads to the jury to spare his life, he will have to accept the bed he makes and lie in it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

And see, he just does not strike me as capable of thinking ahead to try and use "ineffective assistance".

He had difficulty answering specific questions, while at other times, seemed to have authentic difficulty in responding to basic questions.

He just does not strike me as intelligent enough to be that manipulative. Manipulation requires forethought, and a capacity, IMO to anticipate what might happen if one does X then Y would happen.

He cognitively does not seem to have that capability.

jmo heck who knows, he might surprise us !!

Doubtful moo

I suppose he might think he can do some grandstanding, but I do not think that is gonna be tolerated by the system.

It will be interesting to see what happens as it relates to this "notion"

Maybe I am telling myself it can't happen!!

 

[CARIIS]

I say this idiot try to do his thing..I so recall the Long Island rail Mass killer who represented himself and actually alienated ALL (not just the jury) ... Dylann will ( if he goes thru this will no doubt do something similar. He's so full of self-justifaction that he has this need to validate his actions..which really is nothing more than validating the OLD OLD age of attitudes towards "Darkies"..as being the lessor folk..and should be grateful for being sustained by their owners!! .. Talk about OLD ways ( over half Century) that deemed such attitude as "against "Civil Rights".

Dylann is not mentally ill..however mentally a midget and has been converted completely to "White Supremacy" ..This fact is no different than others who get converted by propaganda electronically from Isis..that corrupt those who feel disenfranchised or actually have no filter to figure it out.

It seems a rather simple message..Right/Wrong or Black/White or Good/Evil or Self-Responsibility/ Blame others for your problems or Ability to gain a weapon to full your mission with no obstruction/ versus having to prove one's need for that weapon.

Bottomline..will IF Dylann insists. He will get constantly stopped..IF he even try's to use victim statements to claim falsities ... He's 22 not 16-18..He should know better..BUT his Hate drives him to validate...SAD..False hope on his part to be sure!! :scared: :facepalm: :jail:

Do you guys think the judge will have to let him do this?

Uh oh, I forgot about the Long Island guy and that gentleman had some very serious issues.


Oh brother .....................................

Sorry this cracked me up (look at the handdwriting!)

[FONT=&amp]Dylann Roof informed a federal judge in a handwritten note Friday that he won't present mental health evidence,

[/FONT][FONT=&amp]I will not be calling mental health experts or presenting mental health evidence."

[/FONT][FONT=&amp]it has a sit com feel to it

[/FONT][FONT=&amp]had 24 hours after being convicted on all 33 federal counts of hate crimes, religious obstruction and firearms charges to notify Gergel with certainty whether he intended to introduce mental health evidence during the penalty phase of his trial.

[/FONT]Interesting notion ....[FONT=&amp]Roof likely either doesn't believe evidence his attorneys wanted to present showing he has an illness or doesn't want his message of white supremacy diluted as the rantings of a man with a serious psychiatric disorder.

[/FONT][FONT=&amp]They’re convinced nothing is wrong with them,” Amador said.

[/FONT][FONT=&amp] Lead defense attorney David Bruck is widely placed among the nation's premier capital defense attorneys.

[/FONT][FONT=&amp]if Roof makes a bad choice in representing himself, “There’s no legal remedy for that. The defendant has made his bed so to speak and is stuck with it,” said Robert Dunham, executive director of the Death Penalty Information Center in Washington, D.C.

[/FONT][FONT=&amp]In his closing arguments, Bruck painted Roof as delusional and suicidal, a disaffected loner who didn't grow up in a racist home yet became obsessed with a violent ideology based almost entirely on white supremacist internet sites.

[/FONT]Bruck ..........[FONT=&amp] cannot speak to jurors or introduce evidence on Roof's behalf.

[/FONT][FONT=&amp]Roof said his doesn't believe in psychology.
[/FONT][FONT=&amp]"It is a Jewish invention and does nothing but invent diseases and tell people they have problems when they don't,

[/FONT][FONT=&amp]

[/FONT][FONT=&amp]begin Jan. 3.[/FONT][FONT=&amp]

[/FONT]http://www.postandcourier.com/church_shooting/dylann-roof-won-t-present-mental-health-evidence-in-the/article_2fb1811c-c3e9-11e6-8614-67d7b6615f21.html

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...ealth-experts-penalty-phase-article-1.2914339[FONT=&amp]

[/FONT][FONT=&amp]


[/FONT]

 

[borndem]

An opinion:

The Ease of Dylann Roof

"...Dylann Roof possessed, alongside his racist and murderous inclinations, ease.
There was no forced entry
.
>>>> snipped for space <<<<

police custody..."
.
https://www.buzzfeed.com/legacy_mob...of-dylann-roof?utm_term=.wh7ErZ070#.sa0j6n989
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Wow -- that's is an amazing article, thanks for sharing it.

"Ease." Yes.

We have seen others show a certain coolness (Bradley Cooper comes to mind) when (IMO) lying about not committing a horrible crime, but the word, "ease" is exactly right for Roof. That is what he had that day, and what he has had, IMO, ever since.

I guess he still thinks that what he did was necessary; he must also think that LE, the judge, the jury and whoever else just do not understand. Ease. Yes.

Grrrrrr.

 

[CARIIS]

Hi CARIIS.

I keep seeing comments about how intelligent he was; from those who knew him and from the judge.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ylann-Roof-says-led-astray-Internet-evil.html

Hi Jax

Jmo, but my sense is when younger might have been so. The learning disabled fall behind as time passes, so he could be age appropriate when younger then deteriorate.

He went to like 7 different schools, and for a child without social skills, that can be really tough, so indifference sets in, then rebellion, and basically fall further behind.



kinda like he just stopped developing and learn new skills. IMO he certainly , emotionally not at a place a 19 year old typically would be.

It sure sounds like he was not getting much "adult" stuff from parents!!

jmo tho

 

[Spellbound]

Hi Jax

Jmo, but my sense is when younger might have been so. The learning disabled fall behind as time passes, so he could be age appropriate when younger then deteriorate.

He went to like 7 different schools, and for a child without social skills, that can be really tough, so indifference sets in, then rebellion, and basically fall further behind.



kinda like he just stopped developing and learn new skills. IMO he certainly , emotionally not at a place a 19 year old typically would be.

It sure sounds like he was not getting much "adult" stuff from parents!!

jmo tho

BBM
Interrsting comment, Cariis. From past experiences, I recall learning that an alcoholic essentially stunts their emotional growth at about the age the drinking began. I imagine the same may be true about drug users, also. So, if Roof actually was alcohol and/or drug-dependent he may very well have stunted his own maturity growth. JMO

 

[CARIIS]

BBM
Interrsting comment, Cariis. From past experiences, I recall learning that an alcoholic essentially stunts their emotional growth at about the age the drinking began. I imagine the same may be true about drug users, also. So, if Roof actually was alcohol and/or drug-dependent he may very well have stunted his own maturity growth. JMO

Does anyone know, for sure, if adults in his life were racist??

We have to be honest, his peers might have been comes with the territory sometimes

 

[starviego]

YesorNO
.... forensic scientists would then attempt to match unique, individual characteristics that can transfer from the firearm barrel to the bullet..."

ElleyMae
....microstamping laws make it possible to link cartridge cases recovered at crime scenes to the firearm that fired them. Comprehensive ballistic identification systems (sometimes called ballistic “fingerprinting”) require gun manufacturers to test-fire the firearms they produce and store images of the ballistic markings left on cartridge cases in a database so that law enforcement can later determine whether a particular gun fired a particular cartridge.

That's all well and good, but is there any evidence that such detailed analysis was done? Like I said, the 'defense' lawyer didn't bother asking.

 

[Spellbound]

Does anyone know, for sure, if adults in his life were racist??

We have to be honest, his peers might have been comes with the territory sometimes

we haven't heard about any that I recall .... but he got his ideas from somewhere/someone most likely. JMO.

 

[CARIIS]

Had to make several posts to get some idea of his early life

Decided to take a look around where he lived

School

Dining out

Weekend recreation

 

[CARIIS]

Main street

Grocery shopping

houseing

 

[CARIIS]

Lots of plantations in the city

Goggle images

 

[CARIIS]

Nuance

The racial makeup of the town was 92.26% African American, 6.87% White, 0.41% Asian, 0.12% from other races, and 0.48% from two or more races. Hispanic or Latino of any race were 0.24% of the population.

large racism problem in the fabric of South Carolina.

Facebook page that appears to belong to him said that he attended White Knoll High School in Lexington, South Carolina. Many black people appeared to be on his list of Facebook friends

Tyler, the suspect's roommate, also spoke with the Times and recalled a drive en route to a strip club when Roof used a racist word to refer to a black woman he saw.
“I’ll shoot your *advertiser censored*," Roof then said in reference to the black woman, according to Tyler.

Republican presidential candidate and Sen. Lindsey Graham (R-SC) [video]http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/18/politics/lindsey-graham-charleston-shooting/index.html[/video] that his niece, Emily, knew of Roof from her 8th grade English class and also had the impression that the suspect used drugs.

One school he attened

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/dylann-roof-charleston-suspect-facts











https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastover,_South_Carolina#Demographics

 

[CARIIS]

Another school he attened

sometimes slept in his car.

punk rocker" who liked emo music.

Google images

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/dylann-roof-charleston-suspect-facts

https://www.google.com/imgres?imgur...f3QAhUCfiYKHennAREQMwgkKAYwBg&iact=mrc&uact=8
*/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/d4.jpg[/IMG]

 

[CARIIS]

Found something but not sure if it was legal

the link cut and paste like


Http//wordsthen******************xxxxxx

what do the do the asterisks mean?

 

[Jax49]

Found something but not sure if it was legal

the link cut and paste like

what do the do the asterisks mean?

Asterisks usually mean the link is not allowed on WS. Never seen one look quite like that before, so I'm not sure.

 

[CARIIS]

Asterisks usually mean the link is not allowed on WS. Never seen one look quite like that before, so I'm not sure.

TY!

tid bits
ing in a trailer park,
from black to Jewish and wore apartheid-era South African flags.


some pics in that they got

In a rare occurrence, Roof is pictured here actually smiling a bit as he stands and strong conservative beliefs.

http://murderpedia.org/last-updates.htm

he spent a LOT of his time at plantations, which I find somewhat confusing. I would think in this day and age visiting one would be more in the vein of like regret what we did.

People are not visiting german hallocassut places in celebration of Hitlers atrocities.

No
not
no

notice