Seaching for Anna - #2

[Annasmom]

I just ran across a database, and was wondering if someone could tell me what year Waters went to court as a draft dodger, or if he actually had to go to court? I want to cross reference info on it

Dr. Waters applied for Conscientious Objector status with his local draft board in Dundee, New York, in 1967. There was no court appearance involved, but rather he had to appear in person at the local draft board.

 

[Annasmom]

I believe a death certificate on GW would be sufficient, and a birth cert on Anna would be too...have you gone this route under their guidelines? I know they gave you troubles in the past, but this seems like a mail-in, pretty straight ruled thing...hope it helps!

I went through all this last year and finally obtained copies of GW's passport records after many, many months of waiting, several phone calls, and a lot of notarized material. The thing which finally made it possible for them to produce the records was GW's Social Security number. I have a death certificate for Brody, but since he never had a SS number--at least, not under that name--and since I am a third party, I seriously doubt that I could get any information on him. InterestedNHelping, I posted quite a lot about the passport records, but I'm not sure where this would be on the Forum. All your information is accurate, but they will not release any information on Anna because of her present assumed age and privacy issues.

 

[GraceBlue]

I went through all this last year and finally obtained copies of GW's passport records after many, many months of waiting, several phone calls, and a lot of notarized material. The thing which finally made it possible for them to produce the records was GW's Social Security number. I have a death certificate for Brody, but since he never had a SS number--at least, not under that name--and since I am a third party, I seriously doubt that I could get any information on him. InterestedNHelping, I posted quite a lot about the passport records, but I'm not sure where this would be on the Forum. All your information is accurate, but they will not release any information on Anna because of her present assumed age and privacy issues.

While I respect them for keeping private information private, she was a child when she was taken from you, her mother. Had you asked them for information before she turned 18, would they have given it to you? Is there a way they can contact her, if there is indeed information, to tell her someone is looking for her? That way they aren't giving any private information out. Would it help if you wrote a letter to your state senator to help you get access those records?

 

[Annasmom]

While I respect them for keeping private information private, she was a child when she was taken from you, her mother. Had you asked them for information before she turned 18, would they have given it to you? Is there a way they can contact her, if there is indeed information, to tell her someone is looking for her? That way they aren't giving any private information out. Would it help if you wrote a letter to your state senator to help you get access those records?

Cubby's post #529 says just what the State Department said to me:

"In 1972, a minor child was able to travel upon the passport of the parent - there was no requirement for a minor to have a passport in their own right. I have not been able to find out what the requirements to add a child to a US parent passport would have been BUT the US Department of State will not reveal any information concerning a minor who has now achieved the age of majority on privacy grounds in any event." Someone posted elsewhere that all that was required to add a picture of a child to a passport was a photograph of the parent holding the child. We did find a picture which would fit that requirement in the BFH, but there is a missing passport which GW claimed was destroyed...the one which would have had any amendments or stamps in it.

 

[iNTERESTEDWOMAN]

While I respect them for keeping private information private, she was a child when she was taken from you, her mother. Had you asked them for information before she turned 18, would they have given it to you? Is there a way they can contact her, if there is indeed information, to tell her someone is looking for her? That way they aren't giving any private information out. Would it help if you wrote a letter to your state senator to help you get access those records?

I've been thinking the same thing GraceBlue. There is legal documented proof the child went missing on Jan. 16, 1973. This info alone...and maybe a signed sworn affidavid from the police dept...etc should be enough. It is a sad state of our country that a mother of an abducted child has to jump through hoops to find any information on her missing child. I'm afraid, as court happy as our society has become, Annasmom will have to take this to the supreme court to get any records of Anna's passport information, (if she ever had one) As Cubbys contact pointed out, in the era Anna went missing, she could travel under her gaurdians passport.

 

[iNTERESTEDWOMAN]

...someone posted elsewhere that all that was required to add a picture of a child to a passport was a photograph of the parent holding the child. We did find a picture which would fit that requirement in the BFH...

I thought of that when I first saw the newest picture released of GW & baby Anna. I had an erie feeling that this whole abduction thing was planned for SEVERAL years. When she was actually a baby, (the age most people want when looking to adopt)

 

[Dr. Doogie]

This "catch-22" situation concerning Anna's passport information is why I resuggested the FOIA request for GW's FBI files. This may be a possible "end around" this problem - we may be able to uncover where GW travelled and with whom without the passport run-around.

For those of you who may be too young to know about this era in history, the Viet Nam period was an extremely paranoid time where the government maintained files on those who it felt was subversive. All it took to be considered subversive was to openly express anti-war sentiments (which both Waters and Annasmom did). I would be amazed if they did not "make the list".

The delicious irony of this is that the paranoia of the era may actually work in our favor if it helps us determine where Waters travelled in the early 1970's.

 

[Dr. Doogie]

I thought of that when I first saw the newest picture released of GW & baby Anna. I had an erie feeling that this whole abduction thing was planned for SEVERAL years. When she was actually a baby, (the age most people want when looking to adopt)

Keep in mind that GW could also have taken a new picture of Anna after the abduction to use on a passport.

 

[InterestedNHelping]

I posted the info from the state dept, because I wanted everyone to see, (laughibly) that they simply state cut and dried, send some papers notarized and we give you the info you want. It seems that they should be able to understand that if a child is abducted at the age of 5, the surviving parent should have access to records of her at that age, I just cannot believe they are so callous!

 

[InterestedNHelping]

ps...I agree with GW on his objector status, I am all for it, these days especially...aside from that, I wanted to see if I could find political ties to funding for him or Brody from those years, however the only contributions listed are as far back as 1979...I was trying to connect either of them to some sort of political or anti-political affiliation...where they could have met, and left a Brody trail.

 

[Niteowl]

Third party requests must include one of the following:
1.Notarized consent from the owner of the passport records,
2.Proof of guardianship,
3.Death certificate, or
4.Court order signed by a judge of competent jurisdiction requesting the Department of State to release passport records.

AM, maybe you or LE can go to court to obtain any additional information from the State Department.

I do agree with Dr. Doogie, that the FOIA request may be time well spent.

 

[Cubby]

Annasmom- When you spoke with Gerry Nancy were you able to find out if GW had applied for a passport "attachment" for a minor child, if the picture may have been removed by the state department issuing GW records due to the child no longer being a minor. I wonder if that is what they would have done.......

I also wonder if you were to represent yourself in court presenting the information about Anna possibily abducted if a judge would sign an order requiring the state dept to issue information on ANY minor child GW maybe have traveled with, of course under the presumption of possible parental abduction. It's certainly worth a try. I could see if my friends might be able to offer some additional guidence in that area.

 

[Annasmom]

Annasmom- When you spoke with Gerry Nancy were you able to find out if GW had applied for a passport "attachment" for a minor child, if the picture may have been removed by the state department issuing GW records due to the child no longer being a minor. I wonder if that is what they would have done.......

I also wonder if you were to represent yourself in court presenting the information about Anna possibily abducted if a judge would sign an order requiring the state dept to issue information on ANY minor child GW maybe have traveled with, of course under the presumption of possible parental abduction. It's certainly worth a try. I could see if my friends might be able to offer some additional guidence in that area.

When finally I got the information from the State Department, it included three separate passport applications (going back to GW's college days), with some information blacked out. It was easy to see that what was blacked out was George Brody's name as who (exclusively) should be informed if GW died. I do not know if GW could have added Anna's name and picture to the "lost" passport through a local office. I believe State sent me everything they had except, of course, the passports. The Sheriff's office very carefully photocopied all this information in my presence. As to going to court, I have no idea how this could be done, especially since we have no real evidence to support it. I suppose a lawyer would take the case, but it would be very costly. The guidance of those friends would be welcome in any case.

 

[Cubby]

When finally I got the information from the State Department, it included three separate passport applications (going back to GW's college days), with some information blacked out. It was easy to see that what was blacked out was George Brody's name as who (exclusively) should be informed if GW died. I do not know if GW could have added Anna's name and picture to the "lost" passport through a local office. I believe State sent me everything they had except, of course, the passports. The Sheriff's office very carefully photocopied all this information in my presence. As to going to court, I have no idea how this could be done, especially since we have no real evidence to support it. I suppose a lawyer would take the case, but it would be very costly. The guidance of those friends would be welcome in any case.

Everything keeps pointing to a "no" here...... IF GB's name was readable, why not info on a minor child. I'll dig around with "thoughts" from my FR rights friends from SF.....

As for the court issue, I understand. I was hoping someone well seasoned into researching old court cases, might be able to find similiar case with a parent obtained records once the child was no longer a minor and we could use that allowing you to go pro se.

As for Greece and Italy, is it correct that in 1973 United states citizens could travel freely throughout both countries without a visa? I did a little digging into this and what I found indicated a visa was not needed back then for US citizens. The passport issue brought up going the visa route......

 

[Annasmom]

Everything keeps pointing to a "no" here...... IF GB's name was readable, why not info on a minor child. I'll dig around with "thoughts" from my FR rights friends from SF.....

As for the court issue, I understand. I was hoping someone well seasoned into researching old court cases, might be able to find similiar case with a parent obtained records once the child was no longer a minor and we could use that allowing you to go pro se.

As for Greece and Italy, is it correct that in 1973 United states citizens could travel freely throughout both countries without a visa? I did a little digging into this and what I found indicated a visa was not needed back then for US citizens. The passport issue brought up going the visa route......

It's not that GB's name was readable (it had been scratched out with black marker), but that we found correspondence from GW to the passport office indicating that notice of his death should be given ONLY to, etc. In other words, that I was not to be notified. I think you are right about the visas. There would have been entry and exit stamps on the missing passport, but I don't recall visas being required for US citizens. It would be great if someone could find a precedent for a parent's being able to obtain records for a child who was no longer a minor.

 

[Cubby]

Quite a while ago, we tossed around the possibility of there being a FBI file on George Waters because of his draft resistance activities. I discussed this issue with the PI that we have worked with in the past (he has worked for the defense teams of many "radicals" and is familiar with the intricacies of a FOIA request). His recommendation was that the amount of paperwork and heartache involved in obtaining a file was not worth whatever value that can be gotten out of a file.

That being said, if there is a file on Waters and he travelled outside of the US in early 1973, it would undoubtedly have been noted in his files. Likewise, any travelling companions (Anna? Brody?) that he would have had would also be noted. It is exactly this sort of information that the FBI/CIA/NSA would be keeping tabs on of a "draft dodger". (I guess Nixon's paranoia may have served some purpose, after all. LOL!)

I wonder if, in our case, an FOIA request would actually be worth the efforts?

Did you make a decision with this?

Eagerly awaiting........

 

[Dr. Doogie]

Did you make a decision with this?

Eagerly awaiting........

I have downloaded the paperwork and am reading up on the requirements. I do not know yet if it is worth the efforts.

 

[SherlockJr]

The picture looks great. A special thank you should be given to Annasunc for pursuing this change/correction with the NCMEC. Well done!

Annasunc is going to contact the artist to see if we can pry another age- progression of Anna to the age of 17 or 18. We would love to be able to use this with high school yearbooks.

 

[SherlockJr]

Annasmom should be registered with the ISSR, for all adoptees and birthparents in the world. If there is a 'hit' or match to Annas birthdate or relevant info, they will contact her. At this point, we should assume she is an adult living somewhere that she is looking for a birthparent, and believing she is adopted. This is the one website that does a large amount for adoptees, and she should register there, as if her child was adopted without consent. You just never know....

I spoke with Marri at the ISRR a couple weeks back to see if it was worthwhile to send in an application in this circumstance. She explained they use a 10 point matching system. So, for example, if Anna is using a different date of birth, she would not be eliminated immediately. Marri also told me that "if" they find a match, it's usually within a couple weeks. I then sent Annasmom the information and found out that she had already sent the application when INH posted this. The sad part now is that Annasmom has not heard back from ISRR, which tells me they were not able to find a match.

 

[SherlockJr]

At this time, none of my current leads have panned out, with the exception of a woman with the same birth date and the last name Waters, but I believe it is merely coincidence.

INH, is there anything more you found out about this person?