Searchers and the Motion Regarding TES

[cecybeans]

I just have trouble accepting that the amount of water that could be there would prevent an actual search team or police from finding a skull there. People could search the Econ River but not a puddle so close to the road? I always wondered about that. Like they have all these vehicles, but no just regular tall boots to check out a wet place?

When you guys saw the remains site did you remember seeing any kind of deep area there? I went to see it last January and I never saw any kind of deep depression at all. Just the slightest slope downward from the curb, hardly even noticable. But maybe I missed something. I definitely don't remember seeing any area where it could fill to waist deep with water, nothing like that, I just say "waist deep" because I often hear that term used

IIRC, TM said there was enough mud there to have gotten an ATV stuck, which he did not want to risk. Caylee's femur was something like 5 inches under mud. Even six inches of water would be enough to make it risky for several reasons. One, standing water often has live snakes in it that are invisible. Also, TM was very concerned that walking through mud or water would push down skeletal remains or crush them, either by those on foot, on vehicle or on horseback. In order to do a decent search, you really need to be able to eyeball things ahead of you in your grid or you can inadvertently step on them. The fact that a lot of the area on Suburban was still submerged, even by a few inches, not to mention the difficulty of looking through such dense foliage, meant that it just would not be pragmatic to formally mark off the area and search there. Now that we know Caylee's remains were skeletonized about two weeks after being dumped, it is even less likely that people trampling through the area would have not completely contaminated the crime scene, as we can now see from the discovery docs how far tiny pieces of her skeleton were scattered over the area.

Also, regardless of how close it was to the road, you've seen the initial photos - you could put a lifesize doll in there and have it hidden by the dense foliage even a few feet back in.

 

[Gma Kat]

IIRC, TM said there was enough mud there to have gotten an ATV stuck, which he did not want to risk. Caylee's femur was something like 5 inches under mud. Even six inches of water would be enough to make it risky for several reasons. One, standing water often has live snakes in it that are invisible. Also, TM was very concerned that walking through mud or water would push down skeletal remains or crush them, either by those on foot, on vehicle or on horseback. In order to do a decent search, you really need to be able to eyeball things ahead of you in your grid or you can inadvertently step on them. The fact that a lot of the area on Suburban was still submerged, even by a few inches, not to mention the difficulty of looking through such dense foliage, meant that it just would not be pragmatic to formally mark off the area and search there. Now that we know Caylee's remains were skeletonized about two weeks after being dumped, it is even less likely that people trampling through the area would have not completely contaminated the crime scene, as we can now see from the discovery docs how far tiny pieces of her skeleton were scattered over the area.

Also, regardless of how close it was to the road, you've seen the initial photos - you could put a lifesize doll in there and have it hidden by the dense foliage even a few feet back in.

You have a great point here cecybeans. I wonder if there would be evidence of a search in the mud, etc., to me the condition of the remains IS THE PROOF that the area had not been searched before in that area.

 

[Jolynna]

Interesting theory about die-back of the foliage, but would there be much die back really? Seems like even the vines and everything were still present and leafy when the remains were found. The shrubby palms and so on obviously don't die back. The skull tucked under a kind of plant that dies back? Are you sure? I don't remember ever reading that. Most of her remains scattered over an acre and tucked in animal holes? I remember them checking animals holes, but didn't remember the remains being found in them....

if K could see it why no one else?

Most of the bones not found with the skull and bag were buried under leaves and in mud. They were scattered in body units.

ALL of the bags contained dirt, fine sand and silt.

http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2001/Jul-07-Sat-2001/news/16489129.html

 

[Hot Dogs]

VAN SUSTEREN: In terms of the search that Equusearch did, do you know if Equusearch searched the area where, ultimately, the remains of Caylee were found?

MILLER: We most definitely did search that area, Greta. And the first time we were there — of course, you know, we got there the very beginning of September, and that was right after Tropical Storm Fay came in, and the water was so high and — and I got a lot of criticism when I suspended the
search because I said, You know what? I'm afraid that little body's under the water.

If Miller had said that to local LE, they would certainly have the means to search a small swampy body of water in the woods. I understand that Tim would not want his volunteers walking through the water, but those kinds of searches are done routinely by professionals. Why weren't they brought in to Suburban Drive especially if TM was saying Caylee was underwater?

 

[Jolynna]

Everyone thinks a searched cleared area means an area without a body.

That just plain isn't so.

Chandra Levy was found in an area LE had searched & cleared on numerous occasions.

 

[Hot Dogs]

Do you know how deep it was? Sorry I cannot recall. I will look it up but thought perhaps you might know offhand.

JW said it was 6" deep, FWIW.

When Kronk told his co-workers that he saw a skull sticking out of the water(Aug 11), it was 4-6' from dry land according to him. That is quite close to where he could stand and look at it. If he actually did see the skull or even the body bag(s) poking out of the water, then it was rather shallow. It would not have been much different two days later when Kronk met with Cain at the scene.

The rain really came down from the hurricane the week of the 24th. After that the water would have been bigger and deeper.

Week ending rainfall amounts in inches...

8/3/2008 0.31
8/10/2008 0.51
8/17/2008 0.83
8/24/2008 8.35
8/31/2008 3.14
9/7/2008 0.00
9/14/2008 0.81
9/21/2008 1.48
9/28/2008 0.34

 

[spamelope]

Okay, so JJ is associated with WL -wasn't he the one who was accused of planting the Disney dress? I hope the prosecution has chatted with a gal I shall call Ephanie from myfox blog! Ohhhh, I can't wait for the trial!

 

[cecybeans]

I think CA will live to regret a lot of what she has said and done. When you've lost a loved one tragically, vodka or heavy medications, they both do the trick so CA has no room to speak. Difference is, everyday TM is revisiting that same emotion through others who have someone missing but at least he is doing something positive not negative. JMO

Edit to add: Oh, and Cindy...it's not Tim's urine back there in the woods...it's Kronks. Try to follow the script sweetheart.

Wow. Oh wow. I'd say any liquid is likely CA's bile.

I understand tragic loss can make people self-medicate. But the difference is some of CA's need is likely due misplaced anger at her own daughter for causing it. To me, that makes it all the more precarious for her to think she can be snarky without repercussions. If she had acted sad and humble, she might have had the world on her side, regardless of what KC did. Instead, acting belligerant and belittling, she makes her daughter look guilty and as if she is putting on airs. She is making people wonder if she is not trying to throw her daughter under the bus or simply trying to keep herself from being run over by it in her over-the-top Campaigning for KC.

 

[ExpectingUnicorns]

This video has an immediacy to it, even though months have passed. It kind of got me choked up. Let's say the defense calls this guy to attempt to prove that Caylee was not there when he searched the area. Look at his demeanor! This guy would end up being a wonderful witness for the State. That's the thing about Pandora's Box once you open it...

From Wikipedia: "Pandora had been given a large jar and instruction by Zeus to keep it closed, but she had also been given the gift of curiosity, and ultimately opened it. When she opened it, all of the evils, ills, diseases, and burdensome labor that mankind had not known previously, escaped from the jar, but it is said, that at the very bottom of her box, there lay hope."

ITA. Look at this guy, Drew (Drue?) T. Listen to how he talks about how he has searched this area twice but is not the least bit surprised (let alone suspicious) that Caylee was found here. His personal experience in having participated in the searches gives him a good understanding of the fact that even though an area has been searched that is does not mean that the body is not there. His reaction was one of joy that Caylee had finally been found. Not one of suspicion that someone moved it there since his last search. . . He would be a good witness for SA. I hope they have his name and this clip to show at trial.

God bless all those searchers!! I pray that a smeary attempt by Casey's minions to besmirch the efforts and intents of all these generous people will be revealed for the cheap morals that they represent!

Here's the link for the clip, in case anyone missed it earlier: http://www.wesh.com/video/18255174/index.html

 

[Searchfortruth]

ITA. Look at this guy, Drew (Drue?) T. Listen to how he talks about how he has searched this area twice but is not the least bit surprised (let alone suspicious) that Caylee was found here. His personal experience in having participated in the searches gives him a good understanding of the fact that even though an area has been searched that is does not mean that the body is not there. His reaction was one of joy that Caylee had finally been found. Not one of suspicion that someone moved it there since his last search. . . He would be a good witness for SA. I hope they have his name and this clip to show at trial.

God bless all those searchers!! I pray that a smeary attempt by Casey's minions to besmirch the efforts and intents of all these generous people will be revealed for the cheap morals that they represent!

Here's the link for the clip, in case anyone missed it earlier: http://www.wesh.com/video/18255174/index.html

And to think that the defense has not spoken with Drew yet ? They must be too busy with Kronk's ex's, Laura and Joy...

 

[Tuffy]

I just really want to hear more details about their search of the area the remains were found in. LE found quite a bit of trash there, along with the bags and remains. Did the searchers see any bags, or pieces of plastic bag? Did they see any of the other trash?

They state that they didn't see anything unusual, but that doesn't mean they didn't see anything at all. Did they see trash and bags, and just not think that was unusual?

 

[Just Jayla]

Here's what I don't get....

if these witnesses are to be believed, what advantage is it to the defense to reveal this information NOW to the PUBLIC through the MEDIA as opposed to saving this information for testimony in a trial?

If these witnesses were kept in the pocket of the defense (so to speak) until the trial, then ONLY the jury would have an opportunity to try to discredit their testimony through the only means available to them during the trial (any other testimony/evidence entered into record), so at least a shot that these witnesses may be believable (only have to convince 12 people)

By releasing this "newfound witness story" NOW, before trial, to the PUBLIC through the media, aren't they opening the statements of these witnesses up to a much, much larger group of people with a LOT more resources to discredit them NOW which is a greater risk that any testimony they can offer would be less believable???

What could possibly be gained by the defense to show their cards (as unbelievably silly as they are) to the PUBLIC and MEDIA now??

After carefully listening to AL's recent speech on the penalty phase, I think she is working with LWOP as her end goal. I don't think she believes much of this will stick as far as the trial, but she has to throw it at the wall. She sends JB off to go file the motions, and they see if they catch a break. AL said something similar to "I win an important [motion] decision once per decade."

Meanwhile, as she throws these ideas out there, she is pushing the state to eliminate the possibilities for her-Such as the state's release of information on JG in order to clear him of ToddM's naming of JG as a suspect...I think she would like to force the state in this instance to release more information on the remains site and maybe even information on TES, in order to refute the defense/media claims.

Maybe she hopes to dwindle the state down to the point of exposing their trial strategy, see if they will bite. If she tries all of these antics at trial, it will make them look desperate and sloppy. AL knows they are better served testing these waters now.

 

[Nore]

IIRC, TM said there was enough mud there to have gotten an ATV stuck, which he did not want to risk. Caylee's femur was something like 5 inches under mud. Even six inches of water would be enough to make it risky for several reasons. One, standing water often has live snakes in it that are invisible. Also, TM was very concerned that walking through mud or water would push down skeletal remains or crush them, either by those on foot, on vehicle or on horseback. In order to do a decent search, you really need to be able to eyeball things ahead of you in your grid or you can inadvertently step on them. The fact that a lot of the area on Suburban was still submerged, even by a few inches, not to mention the difficulty of looking through such dense foliage, meant that it just would not be pragmatic to formally mark off the area and search there. Now that we know Caylee's remains were skeletonized about two weeks after being dumped, it is even less likely that people trampling through the area would have not completely contaminated the crime scene, as we can now see from the discovery docs how far tiny pieces of her skeleton were scattered over the area.

Also, regardless of how close it was to the road, you've seen the initial photos - you could put a lifesize doll in there and have it hidden by the dense foliage even a few feet back in.

--------------------------------
Cecybeans, I keep thinking of the pictures WS's had when the book was found.That was before LE.had cleared it,very hard to see anything. If I remember it was in that area TM. said it would have to wait for fear of pushing her remains deeper if they were there.I believe I'm talking about the same pictures you are.A maze of growth.

 

[Boston]

Simon L. from the tow yard opened the car trunk. Simon looked through the trashbag and was the one to throw the trash into a dumpster.

Yes, but...

The Pontiac has a "Spare tire well" inside the trunk that would have easily been large enough to hide a body.

So unless Simon lifted up the lid & looked into the well there's no way of him knowing for sure if there was a body in the trunk.

I personally think that Casey already dumped the body but to answer the other Poster's question.....

It is possible..! ....In my opinion

 

[HRCODEPINK]

I have held off from posting my thoughts on all this because...well, it's Caylee and I don't like to think of her the way that I do when this subject comes up. But justice is justice and murder is murder and I refuse to believe for a second this child will not get the justice she deserves.

That being said, although they say there was a little over 2 days of decomp in the car I am a firm believer that it is hard to say with her being bagged multiple times. <Warning starts here!> I find it hard to believe that Casey could not have poured this child out of the bag by the time she finally took her out of the trunk. I can't find a full version of the article online, but the pertinent info is here:

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-153422528.html

Michael Alcozer, 20, kept 19-year-old Dolores LeGault's body hidden four days, causing her to decompose and leaving the Maricopa County medical examiner unable to determine how she died.

This was in Arizona...IN JANUARY. In January, a full grown woman was left in a trunk for 4 days and had decomposed so badly that cause of death could not be found. In addition, once you have decomposed to that point it is very easy for animals to spread the person out over the area quickly and we all know that is what animals do. They drag off their piece in the hopes of not having to compete with other animals. I don't believe that by the time the police were looking for Caylee she was an intact body, much less by Aug or September. I believe more likely than not she was already spread out over the area she was found and other than the skull, it would have been hard to determine where or what the remains were if stumbled upon by anyone, water or no water. We have also all seen how fast small things decompose outdoors when subjected to the elements and animals. And the faster they decompose the less smell there is. I have smelled human decomp and yes, it is unforgettable, but once there are only bones, there is no smell in the outdoors.

The fact that these "rogue searchers" were not on the list tells me they were not with TES, and more likely than not didn't search at all. IMO they are attention seekers trying to become famous off the death of this innocent child. I wish they'd go find a helium balloon to report to CNN or something and stop trying to block justice for Caylee. It's nonsense. :banghead:

 

[magic-cat]

Tim Miller will tell you himself that it is highly possible to miss a body while searching, especially a small child who had already completely decomposed and been scattered all over creation. I saw where the one of these searchers said they were within 5 feet of where the body was found and did not see her, but that does not mean she was not there. What they were looking for at that point was NOT what Caylee WAS any longer. They were hunting a BODY and she was reduced to a small scattering of bones, in the muck and mud. LE had to excavate the area to find her-she wasn't just laying there for anyone to see...she had to be DUG for...so, these witnesses? Meaningless as far as the reality of the situation goes. Caylee WAS there and they missed her. It's as simple as that.

 

[essies]

http://marinadedave.wordpress.com/
November 30, 2009
Say hello to Laura and Joe
Never heard of them? You will.
<snipped>
Along with Joe Jordan, and the other five or six searchers, were two dog handlers with dogs, Danny Ibison and a Panama City Sheriff’s Deputy.

 

[Just Jayla]

I have held off from posting my thoughts on all this because...well, it's Caylee and I don't like to think of her the way that I do when this subject comes up. But justice is justice and murder is murder and I refuse to believe for a second this child will not get the justice she deserves.

That being said, although they say there was a little over 2 days of decomp in the car I am a firm believer that it is hard to say with her being bagged multiple times. <Warning starts here!> I find it hard to believe that Casey could not have poured this child out of the bag by the time she finally took her out of the trunk. I can't find a full version of the article online, but the pertinent info is here:

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-153422528.html

Michael Alcozer, 20, kept 19-year-old Dolores LeGault's body hidden four days, causing her to decompose and leaving the Maricopa County medical examiner unable to determine how she died.

This was in Arizona...IN JANUARY. In January, a full grown woman was left in a trunk for 4 days and had decomposed so badly that cause of death could not be found. In addition, once you have decomposed to that point it is very easy for animals to spread the person out over the area quickly and we all know that is what animals do. They drag off their piece in the hopes of not having to compete with other animals. I don't believe that by the time the police were looking for Caylee she was an intact body, much less by Aug or September. I believe more likely than not she was already spread out over the area she was found and other than the skull, it would have been hard to determine where or what the remains were if stumbled upon by anyone, water or no water. We have also all seen how fast small things decompose outdoors when subjected to the elements and animals. And the faster they decompose the less smell there is. I have smelled human decomp and yes, it is unforgettable, but once there are only bones, there is no smell in the outdoors.

The fact that these "rogue searchers" were not on the list tells me they were not with TES, and more likely than not didn't search at all. IMO they are attention seekers trying to become famous off the death of this innocent child. I wish they'd go find a helium balloon to report to CNN or something and stop trying to block justice for Caylee. It's nonsense. :banghead:

This must be why it was so important for Dr. Baden to mislead viewers on Fox News night before last...He indicated a body "could take months" to decompose. Sure, it could....but this one didn't take that long.

 

[McNEverest]

Thanks Totally Obsessed for digging up that old JJ thread. Wow! Here's an interesting quote of his from that thread, dated Sep 9/08:

We have a group that were involved at TES... my team of about 15, most are going to continue with us. We also have some individuals that are off duty law enforcement that will be involved as well. We are trying to gather, and will announce a time and location so we can continue. This will not be so much an organized grid search as TES does, but more about probable areas of interest because of the number of searchers.

key word here is "were" involved with TES, as in 'not any more'. And here he's flat out admitting that their search isn't as organized as a TES grid. This is somehow justification for Baez's motion? I don't get it. Am I missing something?

Morning folks,
This is interesting and now wondering if Laura Buchanan was also a part of this JJ's team of 15 searchers...?...

Was thinking also, wonder if the prosecutors know about this information that JJ was spreading all over the web? or Nejame?
We can assume they both Know but what if they Don't?...
This pertinent information would make good argument against the defense seeking All TES searchers records... simply, there were 'independent' searchers out there searching on their own that Were or Are TES volunteers Using the name TES but Not on a 'scheduled or approved search' by TES organization. Furthermore, squash the defense motion that TES did not provide the correct records that Strickland ruled to disclose.

Maybe Kathy Belich can use this information on JJ to further this story?
Just a thought if anyone has ties to bring this out in the open.


:croc: go get em!

 

[I Din Doot]

Also wonder why it took so long for them to come forward. Statements dated Oct and Nov 2009.